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Ugli Pupferknick, and "reaching" turns - Page 6

post #151 of 188
No, Pete, you said that Bob was convinced he was infallible. (That means someone who is never wrong)
You quoted Bob where he said he WAS wrong, therefore Bob is saying he IS fallible.
So, Bob believes he is fallible. Most people that know him believe he is fallible, you seem to be the only one who thinks otherwise.
Are you the one and only member of the "Bob is god" religion? It seems that way.
post #152 of 188
What a riot!

Pete--you'd better watch out. Your post numbers are climbing fast--a couple more and you'll be an EpicSki regular....
post #153 of 188
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
Your post numbers are climbing fast
Bob, you've lost me with all your technical jargon there. Do you mean he's posting a lot? If so, why don't you just say that, instead of using all your weird, longwinded descriptions designed to exclude all us non-worshippers at the altar of Bob.
post #154 of 188
I was wr-wr-wrong a few posts ago.

Bob Barnes....you're MY HERO!!!!
post #155 of 188
I have never been to powdermag.com I guess its time to go have a look.

From one who's childhood hero was Cat in the Hat.
post #156 of 188
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
[quote] The "reaching turn" has been discussed in skiing magazines, coaching journals, and instructor journals, yes, including PSIA's professional journal.

Can anyone help me find these articles? I have searched online and haven't found anything but the Scott Mathers article. Please provide web link or magazine/journal name, date, and article title.
Also is the term "reaching turn" used in the new PSIA manual?
I haven't found it in any of the USSCA or US ski team materials that I have.

post #157 of 188
It's not in the glossary or index of the Apline Technical Manual issued by PSIA in 2002.
post #158 of 188
No, it's not in the new Alpine Manual. Of course, it shouldn't be, because the Alpine Manual is only intended to cover through Level 6--essentially, basic parallel turns on blue terrain.

Most discussion of "new slalom technique"--whatever you want to call it--has been in journals, newsletters, periodicals, and the Internet. And, of course, live conversation! Unfortunately, most of those things don't have indexes on the Internet, so it will take a trip to a good library, at least.

Nord--I wouldn't bother with USSCA stuff--anything written under that name would be too old to apply to this discussion. (Those initials now belong to the United States Slot Car Racing Association!)

Again, besides EpicSki itself (perhaps the most current reference of all), check the newsletters and discussion forums of the various regional Masters racing programs. Ski Racing journal has some decent articles on slalom technique, among other things. Foreign ski publications--especially European and Japanese--often have great technical articles, even if all you can understand is the pictures! Even Ski, Skiing, and Outside Magazines have had a few articles worth reading, and I'd expect to see more coming up.

Most of all though, Nord, since I don't suppose anyone here feels the need to be your personal research assistant or librarian, you'll have to find your own stuff. Tell you what I'll do, though. I have, sitting on my screen, a list of five relevant url's that I found this morning. Number one on the list is the article by Scott Mathers (who, by the way, I hope to see here at EpicSki soon). You start a new thread with a substantive discussion of Scotty's article, and if I get anything worthwhile out of it, I'll send you the next URL. Kind of like homework, eh?

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #159 of 188
By the way, Nord--I agree with you that Warren Witherell's HOW THE RACERS SKI remains, after all these years, one of the all-time classic great works on skiing. With all this talk about "new technique," that book, devoted to carved turns, long before today's deep sidecut "carving skis" came around, really shows that "the more things change, the more they stay the same"!

Best regards,
post #160 of 188
Post moved to Zones.

[ September 03, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #161 of 188
The human species is a constant source of wonder. It always amazes me that certain people seem to have an absolute compulsion to tear down anyone who is respected, admired, or accepted as a person with ideas or knowledge worth listening to. Several of our new posters have apparently fixated on Bob B. as someone who must be denigrated. And the reason? Who knows the real reason. They throw words like "god," "Sacred Cow," "infallible" and "religious followers" around. How petty can you be? Because someone has earned a position of respect, therefore he/she must be ridiculed? "Jargon"? "Endless rhetoric"? Bob uses less of it in a lesson than nearly any instructor I've ever skied with. What he DOES do is demand and practice precision in the use of terminology and language. When someone here on Epic asks a question about a term or a definition, he tries to answer it as carefully and exactly as he can. Have any of our recent friends bothered to do a search of Bob's postings over the past three years? I doubt it. Perhaps one reason Bob elicits the respect and affection accorded him here, and that you find so upsetting, is the endless hours he devotes to helping people improve; or perhaps the incredible amount of time he devotes to making the Epic Ski Academy the best learning experience anyone can find anywhere; or perhaps it's just that people know when someone is a decent, generous human being who will give of himself for them. Ugli, to be blunt, how many people can say the same about you? In his dealings with the members of Epic Ski, Bob has been nothing but patient, helpful, and courteous for over three years. OK, in perhaps one percent of his hundreds of posts, he has been flippant or slightly impatient. Well, so what! When do any of us walk on water? Have any of the people who so aggressively dismiss him ever skied with him? Read his book? Read any posts prior to a month ago? What in his posts on ski technique do you actually disagree with? If you come on the "Instruction" thread here and read a post where someone asks for a clarification of a term or definition, why attack the person who replies? Ugli, maybe you've taken a lesson and had a bad experience. Maybe you haven't and have a preconception of what they are like and don't want any part of it. Maybe you just feel anyone who sees skiing as anything but a "Just do it" experience is a fool. Well, OK, enjoy the sport as you wish. No one is attacking you for it! Some people also enjoy understanding exactly why something works or doesn't work in the sport. Maybe they want to understand the physics of it. Maybe they want to have a vocabulary that is comprehensive and descriptive. Jargon? Not necessarily. But even if there are some terms that might be considered "jargon," words that are shorthand terms that some ski pros use... Well, so what? It's not hurting you, is it? Enjoy the sport as you choose, but perhaps you might reconsider the appropriateness of personal attacks on good people you don't know and who have never harmed you in any way, shape or form.

[ September 02, 2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: mike_m ]
post #162 of 188
I'm not sure that they are "new posters". I expect they have just assumed new names.
as for tearing bob down, they aren't having much luck at that, and they won't, not around here anyway.
post #163 of 188
uhhh... I think I'll check out now.

Can I ever leave?
post #164 of 188
You can check out any time you like. But you can NEVER leave...
post #165 of 188
mike m

Well said and I couldn't agree more, and I think most people who post here regularly would agree as well. Searching and reading Bob's current and prior posts certainly should shed sufficient light on his level of knowledge, his passion to pass this knowledge on to others, and his ability to clearly describe what he's trying to convey. His value to the EpicSki community is unmatched in my opinion and any attempt to discredit him, or his level of knowledge, is laughable at best. Bob, keep up the good work! I probably should get off stage now, the 2 clown circus is due back shortly. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #166 of 188
Some thoughts I've been having while reading this "testosterone poisened" thread.

After 25+ years of coaching and 19 seasons of PSIA, I'm quite familiar with the term "reaching turn". I am a voracious reader of tech articles and spend many hours analyzing video, one frame at a time. I am on a first name basis with a number of top coaches(it's a small fraternity) and attended the USSCA National Acadamy in 2001. I do not recall reading or hearing the term used as it is here(reaching short radius turn)other than Scott's article.

20 years ago a former mentor of mine once said."Joubert and I don't make up the technique, we watch the best and identify it and describe it". It appears to me that this may be what's happening here. PSIA is attempting to describe something they've correctly identified. This is what they're supposed to do. I have not heard it used in the context it's used here in my travels.

I'm not trying to take sides or bash anyone. This is just what's been going through my head here.
post #167 of 188
Thanks guys.

Good points, Slatz. Ultimately, any term, whether you'd call it "jargon" or not, means only what it means to whomever uses it and whomever hears it. If it doesn't mean the same thing to the user and the hearer, there's a strong likelihood of a communication breakdown. This is exactly the problem with "jargon"!

If you hear the word "reach" and it creates an image in your mind of the awkward movements of so many junior racers reaching in with their arms to cross block a gate, pulling their upper bodies and balance all out of line--which seems to be what it meant to U.P.--you would be right to describe it as "bad." If it creates the image of turns that reach farther across the hill, or feet reaching farther out away from the body, reaching out around the gate as the body takes a straighter line, then it has been a useful aid in understanding modern slalom technique. But because it is ambiguous and needs further explanation, it is "jargon," and often serves more to confuse than to educate.

Ultimately, what matters is the communication itself, and the ideas that are communicated. What matters in this case is the technique. Who cares what someone wants to call it? The techniques of skiing are worth discussing. Obsessing over someone's choice of words is missing the point!

Roto--I'm with you. I think it's time for me too to check out of this thread. There have been a few worthy discussion points that have come of it, and some are beginning new threads. I'll see you there!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ September 02, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #168 of 188
That sums it up nicely. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #169 of 188
Originally posted by mike_m:
The human species is a constant source of wonder. It always amazes me that certain people seem to have an absolute compulsion to tear down anyone who is respected, admired, or accepted as a person with ideas or knowledge worth listening to. Several of our new posters have apparently fixated on Bob B. as someone who must be denigrated. And the reason?

Check to see how he responded when Ugli questioned his use of a fairly arcane term.
Since you have failed to understand this, the rest of your post (and the above) is not worth responding to (you're discussing something you imagine to be at issue).
post #170 of 188
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Pete. You've been missed since your last time in.

edit: No, really. I mean that.


[ September 03, 2003, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #171 of 188
I'm baaaaaaaack!!! [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]

I'll check back in in the next day or two to make sure no further abuses of terminology occur.

-M. le Hut
post #172 of 188
Originally posted by Wear the fox hat:
No, You quoted Bob where he said he WAS wrong, therefore Bob is saying he IS fallible....
But what if Bob was wrong?
post #173 of 188
Bob once thought he was wrong, but he was mistaken. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #174 of 188
It's 9/9 and having read our previous "reaching turns" topic a year+ ago..I thought from Ryan's (8/26) innocent inquiry of Ugli's ranting....this was simply going to be a repeat....till I opt to jump to Page 7 : : [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Sounds like we're *picking up* from one of those 3am post_beano_games_Brawls in downtown Silverthorne...Bob [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #175 of 188
Well now that the dust has settled and most of my questions have been answered, I'd like to thank everyone for their helpful input. Except for sportscoach13, Wear the fox hat, Loke, and mike_m, who I suppose can be admired for their devoted defense of all things Epic, but are apparently too dim or ignorant to contribute anything of substance. If I've missed anyone else in that category, please let me know by responding to this post with some variety of petty insult unrelated to anything I've written in this thread so you, too, can be counted. And to the rest of you, once again, a sincere thanks for your time and thoughts. If you're ever in Umlaut, look me up.

[ September 11, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Ugli Pupferknick ]
post #176 of 188
Thread Starter 
watch that door on your way out...

[ September 11, 2003, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #177 of 188
Thank you for your vote of confidence.

I make no apologies for being dim and ignorant. In the same way you make no apologies for being rude, and being against those who are different to you. (e.g. skiboarders)
post #178 of 188
What an uncool display of poor sportsmanship, Ugli.
post #179 of 188
A little something all of us might ponder:


1. Having a lot to say.

2. Not saying it!

post #180 of 188
Originally posted by Ugli Pupferknick:
And to the rest of you, once again, a sincere thanks for your time and thoughts. If you're ever in Umlaut, look me up.
Are you in the Umlaut Yellow Pages under "Obnoxious Troll"?

[ September 12, 2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Mr_T ]
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