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Ugli Pupferknick, and "reaching" turns

post #1 of 188
Thread Starter 
Ugli,

I asked this of you in another thread but it may get buried and miss your eyes.

You said "Any turn that involves 'reaching' is not good skiing." I would be most appreciative if you could elaborate on this, sticking to skiing and avoiding the pejorative, of course. Simply, I'm intrigued.

I look forward to your considered reply. Any insight pertinent to ski technique is welcome here; I (and perhaps others) would be interested in what you mean.

Sincerely...
post #2 of 188
Ryan, I don't think Ugli has figured out yet what this forum of Epicski is all about yet. He seems to be confusing real skiing with cyberskiing. Cyberskiing is of course, not real skiing. I will be patient if he lays off the racial slurs. He seems enthusiastic enough. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #3 of 188
The act of reaching, as I and I assume the average human being understands it, is what I do in the supermarket when the last box of buckwheat kashi is on the top shelf, or when the last box of tofu pups is in the back of the freezer. Or when the remote control is at the other end of the coffee table. Or junior in the child seat could use a good smacking while I'm in traffic. By now I'll assume you get the idea.

Reaching in this manner during a ski turn is bound to throw off one's upper body balance and stability, and therefore is not good skiing.

Perhaps Pierre has a different understanding and definition of reaching than I do. In that case he or whoever came up with the ludicris term "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn" is playing games with nomenclature and jargonish definitions, which is bad teaching.
post #4 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Ryan, I don't think Ugli has figured out yet what this forum of Epicski is all about yet. He seems to be confusing real skiing with cyberskiing. Cyberskiing is of course, not real skiing. I will be patient if he lays off the racial slurs. He seems enthusiastic enough. [img]smile.gif[/img]
If this forum is about "real skiing," something's getting lost in the translation.

And I have never used a racial slur in this or any other forum! The pasty-white, funny-talking, kidney-eating people we know collectively as Englishmen are a nation, not a race.
post #5 of 188
Ugli wrote:
Quote:
If this forum is about "real skiing," something's getting lost in the translation.
You are still clearly mistaken. In the middle of the summer this forum is not about real skiing. Its about cybersking. We clearly don't ski or teach the way we interact in writing here.

Quote:
people we know collectively as Englishmen are a nation, not a race.
Hummmm, yeah might have a point here eh!. Its just soooo out of character in Epicski.
post #6 of 188
>>>Reaching in this manner during a ski turn is bound to throw off one's upper body balance and stability, and therefore is not good skiing.<<<

Ugli, I presume you could reach for a box of crackers on a supermarket shelf while walking past without losing your balance and stability, probably by compensating with other body movements, so why would you lose your balance reaching while skiing.

Skiers constantly reach to set their poles, especially on the steeps.

Ugli, you either need to learn to reach or learn to ski without losing balance. The place to learn is right here

....Ott
post #7 of 188
And now we finally get the kind of nonsense that Epic is famous for.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ott Gangl:

Ugli, I presume you could reach for a box of crackers on a supermarket shelf while walking past without losing your balance and stability, probably by compensating with other body movements, so why would you lose your balance reaching while skiing.
I could possibly reach for a box of crackers while skiing and not lose my balance. But depending on my speed and the terrain and the position of the slope-side cracker shelf, I might bail into the cold cereal aisle. At the very least, my upper body would rotate too much and I'd be thrown off my carve, as just about anyone would do while executing a mid-turn, cracker-seeking lateral hand thrust. Do you advocate this type of upper body movement while skiing?
[/QB][/quote]

Quote:
Originally posted by Ott Gangl:

Skiers constantly reach to set their poles, especially on the steeps.
I don't think of that as a reach, and it certaintly isn't analagous to the four examples of reaching in my previous post, or your cracker box example. A pole plant on the steeps is naturally down the hill as a result of a skier's momentum and stance if his or her arms are loose and forward and balanced, as they should be. I can see how encouraging a timid skier to "reach" down the hill might help if you're teaching, but I don't think of "reaching" when I'm skiing steeps.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ott Gangl:

Ugli, you either need to learn to reach or learn to ski without losing balance. The place to learn is right here

....Ott
Uhhh ... yeah. That's exactly what I need to do. And people here have soooooo much to teach me. :

I'd really like to know what Pierre's talking about though. Is the point of these "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turns" to reach and then lose one's balance and then recover? I'd assume not, this may be a nuthouse but it's not ski technique bizarro world. So then why not just call them "Clean Carved Round Short Turns?" When you throw the reaching part in, it sounds like you're advocating initiating the turn with upper body movement, which is just plain goofy. In my book the lower body initiates the turn and the upper body just needs to stay balanced and forward and angulated and enjoy the ride, and if you have a problem with that, then you really have problems.

If I ever see Tommy Moe I'll have to compliment him on his "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turns" :
post #8 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Ugli Pupferknick:

"Clean Carved Round Short Turns?" When you throw the reaching part in, it sounds like you're advocating initiating the turn with upper body movement, which is just plain goofy.
I had to those in my level 3 seminar this spring. This was not an official demo or task but something that might be asked. It was the first time I heard about it. You should imagine your turn in a square box were you are trying to touch the 3 corner, The upper, the side and the bottom. If there is traversing the imaginery square become a rectangle, not a square. All that should be done on a clean carve and round arc (not an ellypse)I can do it succesfully but it is hard to explain. Correct me someone if I am wrong.
post #9 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Ugli Pupferknick:
The act of reaching, as I and I assume the average human being understands it, is what I do in the supermarket when the last box of buckwheat kashi is on the top shelf, or when the last box of tofu pups is in the back of the freezer. Or when the remote control is at the other end of the coffee table. Or junior in the child seat could use a good smacking while I'm in traffic. By now I'll assume you get the idea.

and I'll assume you don't.

because you just don't.

It's about reaching with your turns not your body parts. "reaching short radius turns" is the instructors way to begin digesting and working with recent changes in World Cup slalom turn shape/line. Watch some video of Ingemar or our Mahre boys and you see short radius turns. Watch some vid of current WC winners and the difference between the turns each era's winners were/are making is what the 'reach' is all about.

Don't be too upset about the confusion. the ski instruction world has always borrowed terminology from other walks of life and applied it in their own way that doesn't make sense to the average human.

To try to speak to ski instructors as fellow "average humans" is a mistake. We are all actually superior and your inablity to understand is simply proof of that.

[ August 26, 2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #10 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Roto:

To try to speak to ski instructors as fellow "average humans" is a mistake. We are all actually superior and your inablity to understand is simply proof of that.
You have got to be kidding me... :
post #11 of 188
Maybe Ugli and other relative newcomers to EpicSki and general PSIA terminology discussion would benefit from understanding just what "reaching turns" means. Please read the discussion of the modernization (read carving applications) of short radius turns in PSIA's magazine The Professional Skier by Scott Mathers:http://www.psia.org/psia_2002/educat...shortturns.asp
post #12 of 188
Sorry, Ugli, my attempt at humor didn't make it

Instructors who spend every day of the ski season trying to teach skills to the public which at the beginners stage has no idea what skiing involves, or at the advanced stage needs to get rid of bad habits, which is often like pulling teeth, spend much time here trying to just get on the same page as far as terminology and new technique goes.

And often convoluted terms like "reaching" creep in. To you it may mean reaching with your arms, to the instructors it may mean reaching with the whole body 'into the future' as it were, and yet to others it may be just confusing.

Our attempt here is to learn.

And yes, BakerBoy, Roto was kidding , there are some who are actually superior but by their demeaner you wouldn't know it.

.....Ott

Edit: sorry BakerBoy, I had misspelled your name.

[ August 27, 2003, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Ott Gangl ]
post #13 of 188
wow

BB; relaaax, it's just fun. Poking fun at Ugli by intimating he is less than superior (since Ugli's posts give off that superior stink).

and a barb aimed at instructors (who are steroetyped as feeling superior and who so often speak in (technical)tongue and alienate those they are trying to educate).

And a hook & worm tossed out to the stereotypers of instructors who will fail to see the humor through their closed minds and start working their fishlips so frantically until they end up hooked in the gut.

This (I think) is acceptable humor for ESki. uhhh...

Oh to have to explain these kinds of things :

So I don't really know if there is more interest in the actual topic matter. But just in case...

The reach refers to a moving across the fall-line from one turn to another in such a way that the skier will 'change fall lines' without traversing.

Picture your standard Short turn corridor. About 1/2 to 3/4 of a groomer width. To better understand reaching SR turns picture two adjacent corridors. rt turns occur in one, left in the other and you want to get from one to the other without traversing or retarding flow.

again, it's merely the instructors way to experiment with and understand what Wcuppers are doing. And the instructors way to take advantage of/understand every possible performance that can come out of a ski. And skis now can do this while the old ones couldn't.

[ August 27, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #14 of 188
Post first, then smoke crack

[ August 27, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: teledave ]
post #15 of 188
Okay, so, catching up from last night, Otto's post was a complete joke from beginning to end (guess I got reeled in on that one ...); the hideous term "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn" is PSIA's jargonization of modern slalom technique, where the skis are extended far outside the body to maximize body angulation, edge angle, and get the most out of the turning radius of the ski; the guy in the pictures in that article supposedly demonstrating this technique is lifting his inside ski entirely off the snow, early 90s style; and I need to understand (or continue to not understand?) that instructors are superior beings.

I think I get it now.
post #16 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
Ugli,

I asked this of you in another thread but it may get buried and miss your eyes.

You said "Any turn that involves 'reaching' is not good skiing." I would be most appreciative if you could elaborate on this, sticking to skiing and avoiding the pejorative, of course. Simply, I'm intrigued.

I look forward to your considered reply. Any insight pertinent to ski technique is welcome here; I (and perhaps others) would be interested in what you mean.

Sincerely...
What's the word little man, you enjoying this?
post #17 of 188
Thread Starter 
Enjoying WHAT exactly, ugli? (Do explain.)

The post poses a simple, honest, pertinent question.

Can ya handle that?

This is a technique forum; you've observed the basic premise. You posited a note regarding technique. As is the case here, such notions are discussed at length and too diligently for some; however, that's how it is. People are often asked to elaborate on what they're saying. Happens all the time. I didn't call you a name, I said nothing remotely disparaging; I asked you a question. I asked you to extrapolate on your "point."

What's the word? What DON'T you get?

I'd be happy to attempt to make it clearer if this effort proves insufficient.

[ August 27, 2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #18 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
Enjoying WHAT exactly, ugli? (Do explain.)

The post poses a simple, honest, pertinent question.

Can ya handle that?

This is a technique forum; you've observed the basic premise. You posited a note regarding technique. As is the case here, such notions are discussed at length and too diligently for some; however, that's how it is. People are often asked to elaborate on what they're saying. Happens all the time. I didn't call you a name, I said nothing remotely disparaging; I asked you a question. I asked you to extrapolate on your "point."

What's the word? What DON'T you get?

I'd be happy to attempt to make it clearer if this effort proves insufficient.
RELAX!! You're the funniest poster on this board, you know.

I wanted to know if you were enjoying the thread you started, and whether you've learned anything, and whether you have anything to contribute.

Wait, now I actually do have a specific question: "why" did "you" place the word "point" within "quotes?"
post #19 of 188
Thread Starter 
"Point" equating to Any turn that involves reaching is not good skiing. Don't sweat the quotations, ugli (or, RELAX); more interested in you elaborating on the reaching.

Thanks.

If you have anything further to add that does not pertain to reaching short turns or ski technique, feel free to PM me.

[ August 27, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #20 of 188
Ugli Pupf*k--

It does appear that you have issues with the word "reaching." Perhaps there is a better one to describe current slalom technique--and perhaps not. PSIA certainly did not invent the word, or its use in skiing, either way!

Personally, I find "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn" far more descriptive than "modern slalom technique, where the skis are extended far outside the body to maximize body angulation, edge angle, and get the most out of the turning radius of the ski," but perhaps that's just me. To me, "reaching" is easier to digest and visualize than "skis extended far outside the body," but I believe that both of you are trying to say the same thing. (I have a hard time visualizing skis extended far INSIDE the body, actually, although with the tone of your posts, I suspect that many people have conjured just that image!) Either way, the point is clearly just to try to communicate something with words, where there is no existing single word to describe it. In fact, whether we like it or not, "reaching" has become pretty common as a way to differentiate modern slalom technique from "traditional." I'm not crazy about it either, but I can accept it.

"Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn." When you think about it, it's really a pretty good description of typical modern slalom turns. They are

</font>
  • CLEAN--in the well-established sense that there is minimal skidding and minimal scraping, hacking noise--like the clean incision of a sharp blade vs. the ragged tear of a rusty nail</font>
  • CARVED--often from start to finish, vs. the traditional slalom turn that is carved, if at all, only briefly at the final, harsh edge set.</font>
  • ROUND--very much so, vs. the abrupt "J" shape of the traditional "float and sting" slalom turn.</font>
  • REACHING--Ahh, here's the contentious word. But as you suggest, the whole body can reach more to the outside, vs. only the lower legs. Use the word "extending," if you prefer, but it's clear you understand what it means.</font>
  • SHORT--certainly, as opposed to long....</font>
  • TURN--a change of direction--can't argue with that, can you?</font>
Typical modern slalom turns are, indeed, all these things. Here, they're all just words, though, used in an honest attempt to describe something. Six simple words to describe a fairly complex concept--I'd hardly call that "jargon." If they fail to paint the right picture for you, or if you have better words, by all means state that. That's what this forum is about.
If you think that less description is needed, because everyone understands what you mean without it, then just say "modern slalom turns," or just "slalom turns," or just "turns." But don't be surprised or offended if, as Ryan did here, someone asks you to elaborate a little to clarify your meaning.

In any case, a picture is still worth a thousand words!

Traditional slalom--"quick on and off the edges"; "float and sting":

Modern Slalom--"Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turns":

Maybe that will help. Call 'em what you want, but I wouldn't call ANY of those turns "not good skiing"!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ August 27, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #21 of 188
Here's what cracks me up about this. I know modern slalom technique, I still have a lot of work to do on mine but I can definitely shin to win my way through the gates, arc to arc (more or less), on a pair of 160s. (I generally don't win, or even come that close, but that's another story). So I know how to make a "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn," but when I first heard this phrase I had no idea what the hell it was supposed to mean! I have never heard the word reaching used in this context in skiing.

So how many instructors did it take to explain this? Otto was just goofing with me, Frenchie lost me with the square box, Roto nailed it with WC technique, Kneale's article was overly long and had crappy pictures but got it too, and then Bob rehashed it all, broke it down word by word, and supplied a picture that tells the whole story. And this is with someone who isn't that big of a moron (at least that's what my mother tells me) and who gets the concept. What do you do with someone who doesn't?

So I might as well get to my thesis: Writing about technique, especially in the context of this forum, is damn near useless. Instructors are so concerned with creating a common language amongst themselves that their jargon -- and I classify this particular usage of the word "reaching" as jargon -- becomes impenetrable even to people who understand the technique buried several semiotic layers beneath. When everything's finally sorted out, the verbiage to usefulness ratio is way too high. And that's why I'm going back to powdermag, where I can ramble on about one fat ski versus another, get stoked with kick-ass video and action shots, and occasionally see a hot naked chick, who may or may not be somebody's sister.

Woof Woof! Enjoy the summer Bears. I'm going skiing this weekend. How 'bout you?
post #22 of 188
. Bob,

Actually, "reaching" confused me for a while--compounded upthread by the reach into the cereal aisle....<chuckle>

I can't think of a better word, though.

. Fred ---//
post #23 of 188
Pugli Nuperfuk,

your wordplay is funny, your observations sharp, and your wit was unchallenged in this thread.

now as to this observation:

Quote:
So I might as well get to my thesis: Writing about technique, especially in the context of this forum, is damn near useless. Instructors are so concerned with creating a common language amongst themselves that their jargon -- and I classify this particular usage of the word "reaching" as jargon -- becomes impenetrable even to people who understand the technique buried several semiotic layers beneath. When everything's finally sorted out, the verbiage to usefulness ratio is way too high. And that's why I'm going back to powdermag, where I can ramble on about one fat ski versus another, get stoked with kick-ass video and action shots, and occasionally see a hot naked chick, who may or may not be somebody's sister.
I'm frustrated by jargon too. On one hand, the PSIA folks and PSIA-jargon fans who do most of the posting in this particular forum are fairly friendly with the same PSIA jargon that infuriates me. So, I feel this particular forum has a minor admission fee - be at least somewhat familiar with the jargon, even if you don't use it yourself.

On the other hand, I also believe that good communication always avoids jargon and polysyllabics - that's why I dislike the PSIA terminology. It's typical pointy-head stuff, overmultiplied syllables and eternal obfuscation... designed to affirm the "insider" status.

I'm lucky enough to get coaching from someone who has coached many racers and has been a top PSIA instructor. He doesn't use the jargon, but he knows it pretty darned well. I don't know how well he'd like this forum, but I know that he has much to add.

I don't exactly know what my point is, but I know that if you're as clever as you appear, you might have some fun if you leave the jargon objection on the back burner, simmering well until you learn the other members' senses of humor. Sarcasm and irony are not always well received in here. Trust me, I know this from experience.

[img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #24 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Ugli Pupferknick:
Here's what cracks me up about this. I know modern slalom technique, I still have a lot of work to do on mine but I can definitely shin to win my way through the gates, arc to arc (more or less), on a pair of 160s. (I generally don't win, or even come that close, but that's another story). So I know how to make a "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn," but when I first heard this phrase I had no idea what the hell it was supposed to mean! I have never heard the word reaching used in this context in skiing.

So how many instructors did it take to explain this? Otto was just goofing with me, Frenchie lost me with the square box, Roto nailed it with WC technique, Kneale's article was overly long and had crappy pictures but got it too, and then Bob rehashed it all, broke it down word by word, and supplied a picture that tells the whole story. And this is with someone who isn't that big of a moron (at least that's what my mother tells me) and who gets the concept. What do you do with someone who doesn't?

So I might as well get to my thesis: Writing about technique, especially in the context of this forum, is damn near useless. Instructors are so concerned with creating a common language amongst themselves that their jargon -- and I classify this particular usage of the word "reaching" as jargon -- becomes impenetrable even to people who understand the technique buried several semiotic layers beneath. When everything's finally sorted out, the verbiage to usefulness ratio is way too high. And that's why I'm going back to powdermag, where I can ramble on about one fat ski versus another, get stoked with kick-ass video and action shots, and occasionally see a hot naked chick, who may or may not be somebody's sister.

Woof Woof! Enjoy the summer Bears. I'm going skiing this weekend. How 'bout you?
Do you feel better now?
post #25 of 188
Quote:
I have never heard the word reaching used in this context in skiing.
Ah--the truth surfaces! YOU haven't heard the word used this way, so you pretend that everyone who HAS is somehow ignorant?

If you think of yourself as a racer, and you haven't heard the expression "reaching short turn," you must have been buried in an avalanche for the past three years. The "reaching turn" has been discussed in skiing magazines, coaching journals, and instructor journals, yes, including PSIA's professional journal. It was the buzzword du jour for most race coaches I came into contact with through much of last season and the season before, and I got pretty tired of it too. There was a thread with the title "Reaching Turns" here at EpicSki a year and a half ago or so, so it's been something regulars here have become familiar with. And that thread refers to an article by Scotty Mathers, published in 1999. Where ya been?

Again, your unfamiliarity with a term should not be confused with ignorance of those around you!

I don't know where you get the impression that PSIA is responsible for the term either--that's as absurd a notion as I've heard expressed in these forums in a long time. Certainly, good instructors communicate ideas--they do not use undefined jargon. I'm not suggesting that all, or even most, instructors are "good." But I can guarantee you that one sure way to NOT impress a PSIA Examiner is to use jargon. If you use a jargonistic word, you'd better be prepared to explain what you mean by it, in plain English.

If I've used any words in here that you don't understand, UP, please feel free to ask for a clarification. Ignorance is curable.
post #26 of 188
I don't really get all the anti-jargonistic crap people throw around about PSIA. Any specialized field of work creates it's own jargon specific to itself. The "insiders" are simply using it to increase their understanding, skill and better their work performance/product/whatever it may be.

It's no secret that really good instructors avoid using jargon while teaching, but they will still be well up on what it all is/means etc. as they will likely be keeping current.

IMO the best of the best in any field will be pretty well rounded with skills and knowledge, and in teaching skiing that means a certain amount of technical knowledge among the other skills and knowledge. So what.

nolo had a great article on her old site with some excerpts by Carol Levine among others. The article defined the over-technicalized stage many instructors go through as almost necessary to lay in foundations of knowledge for growth in performance. When the stage is over instructors come to learn the role of this knowledge and it ceases to be so much in the forefront of what they do even while it serves an important behind the scenes purpose.
post #27 of 188
Heh. Just like the hippie thing it's all happened before. Try checking out the page (20) in PSIA's white book about the Serpent Christie; the era's own Reaching Turn.

"The serpent was developed by ski champions instinctively to eliminate all braking in slalom turns. It became the favorite turn of most competitors. Obviously, a new christie finished form or technique is developing. As was true with the shortswing in the beginning, it is feasible for only the best skiers"
post #28 of 188
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
Where ya been?
Skiing, mostly.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:

Ignorance is curable.
But alas, self-congralutary pomposity is not. Sucks to be you.

Edit to expand a little - So this is what Epic posters mean when they say there's so much to learn here, some instructor patting himself on the back for his knowledge of jargon, and implying I can't be much of a racer if I haven't read PSIA Journals and some old thread on Epic.

I'll make it a point to ask every serious race coach I run into this year about the term "reaching," and their views of its utility and universal nature. And I'll try to get some serious racers in here too to see what they say.

[ August 28, 2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Ugli Pupferknick ]
post #29 of 188
Thank you to all of you that provided insight. I heard of the term got it demonstrated and simply told the box thing that make sense when it is graphically explained and help to get an even flow through the turn. To me they were not very different than short radius carved turns. I was thinking about shortening a GS turn more or less simply. Something I have done since I ski on shape skis.

The explanations provided here were clear and made me grasp the concept a little better. I still will not feel easy about trying to teach it which prove that there is a difference between being able to do something and teaching it.

[ August 28, 2003, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Frenchie ]
post #30 of 188
[ August 28, 2003, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Frenchie ]
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