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Skiing in Mountain Creek VS Windham Mountain?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Hello Everyone!

Can someone suggest which mountain is better for skiing -

Mountain Creek in Vernon, NJ
http://www.mountaincreek.com/

or

Windham Mountain in Windham , NY
http://www.windhammountain.com/
post #2 of 19
Well....Mtn. Creek was my home mountain for the past eight years (this year switched to Hidden Valley).  and although I have never skied WIndham mountain it HAS to be better than Mtn Creek.  Creek is generally crowded on weekends and although they just had about 24" of snow I would still choose Windham.  The Catskills have mroe verticle and is just a better experience.  Where are you driving from?
post #3 of 19
I'm from NJ originally; I went to Mtn. Creek twice (once after a huge storm) and regretted it both times. Even the day after "the blizzard of '06" the skiing wasn't that great. That and the mountain is packed like nowhere else I've seen--packed with a lot of dirtbag gapers too.

After a while, I always opted to make the trip up to the Catskills, instead of Mtn. Creek or the Poconos, which were significantly closer. Windham was my favorite overall mountain there. I liked the layout better than Hunter; the lifts tended to be less crowded and it was more of a chill mountain. I'd recommend Windham 20 times over over Mtn. Creek. In my opinion, it is the best mountain south of Vermont. Hunter and Belleayre are also worth looks, but you can't go wrong with Windham. Don't waste a penny on Mtn. Creek, unless you just don't have time to get anywhere else.
post #4 of 19
No question about it...Windham.  At about the same distance you can also go to Hunter, which is my fav "close" mtn.  I cant suggest Belleayre since I never skied there, but from what I saw its more basic, being a govt run property its to be expected; though less crowded than all ther others mentioned here.
post #5 of 19
Concerning Belleayre--it's less crowded than Hunter or Windham and also cheaper. (At least it was 4 or 5 years ago when I was there) They also used to have a student ticket (up to 22 years old, I think) that was the cheapest ticket around ($30 at the time--8 years ago). The mountain is nicely divided into an upper and lower mountain. The lower mountain is basically all green terrain, so it's great for a beginner. The upper mountain is all blue, black and double black, so it's a nice, natural division. I believe they've also added some glades in recent years, which is a nice touch for a NY mountain.
post #6 of 19
 I went to MC late yesterday just to get some snow.

The conditions were VERY good. Better than I thought.

I got up there at about 3PM and skied until 9PM solo. Must have done 30-35 runs.

I ski at MC frequently since it's only 45 minutes door to lift for me. Yes--gapers abound and the place does get packed. I stay on the black diamonds exclusively and I usually don't see a soul on the trails with me. 

It's a place where you can die on the greens or blues, but not many people at all ski the harder terrain. The "harder" terrain is not that hard relatively to any other place so even my 7 year old daughter can ski it.
post #7 of 19
 ETA:

I skied Windham LAST Sunday after not having skied there for 20 years and the conditions were terrible. They were not actively making snow so it was flat out ice skiing on all the trails. It has been cold enough to make snow, but it looked to me that they were just being cheap and trying to get away without spending the money to make snow.

The staff were savages, and the clientele was less than stellar. I wouldn't rush back.
post #8 of 19
Maybe this should be its own topic - but here's something to think about:

For a day trip, what is the best mountain to go to from NYC?  Considering conditions, crowds, length of drive, etc. 

I say Windham, but it's still more than an hour longer drive than the Poconos, so Jack Frost/Big Boulder is a close second.  Thoughts?
post #9 of 19
Windham in my personal view is the worst place I have skiied in the North-East . For the North-east I have only skiied places in upstate NY and SW Massachusetts, so Vermont and points north are not included in this commentary.

Did every single black and double diamond (sans too mogulled, one run only had major moguls at Windham) at Windham, and all that jazz which people like to crow about(trails wolverine, why not, wingin it, wedel etc..). Note I am a beginner to cusp-of-intermediate skier and ski calmly, under reasonable sure-footed control, and carve often enough, no snap-left-right descents, cool arc-to-arc often edge locked descents, short radius for steeps and longer radius for gentler terrain. My friends, both skiers and riders, experienced and expert thought the trails were pretty icy, and they had gotten a ton of snow, well cest la vie. Also, the parking lot, good luck waiting for the ski-bus-shuttle in the cold, i think they have one bus, that's what it looked like, faster to walk but some walk it is. I can only imagine what families have to do when they have the entire clan in tow, and the adults have to lug all the gear. One sign you can tell its a mess is they actually have "security" standing around in the cafetaria ! security! that is a telling sign as to their past experience with their clientele!

That said Windham has a terrible lift system, they are as bad/outdated/archaic/rickety as tiny hills in Mass which only a local could find, its full of skiers and boarders with zero mountain etiquette or common sense (not all of course but one too many which made an impression; funny that many folks there do NOT understand, if one is standing off to the side of the mountain, its to get out of their way, they insist on sliding into you out of control). And the base is a zoo with all kinds of crappy promotions, its not skiing, its noise. Nothing pristine or beautiful about the experience. The best thing about Windham was the drive there through some backroads in the Catskills since I missed the Windham turn when rte 23 forks left to Windham (I went straight! the drive was very pretty though, rustic, snow-filled..nice, narrow windy, snow filled roads)

Best mountain in upstate NY and SW Mass is Jiminy Peak hands down(its a fingertip into Mass from NY border jsut beyond I-90). Management takes care of that mountain, and the lifts are run well and sensibly. They actually pay attention to the skiers. base is also not a total mess but sure it can get crowded. The grooming at Jiminy is very good. Even the trailers which pick you up from the parking lots are so frequent and efficient, just the hallmark of a very well-managed mountain, and clever, they hitch horse wagons onto small trucks, you get in stand with your gear and you are at the base! Skiing Jericho, Whitetail, Whirlaway on days with the wind screaming at the top, reportedly 30mph+ the day I was there, (its in a Wind corridor, one Windmill at the top of Jiminy, another cluster of 4 or so across on another hill!) and the snow flying up over the lip makes for an interesting experience! Its steep for sure, and the top of Jericho (has to do with wind-hit angle I conjecture) is often a sheet of ice, no ifs and buts, but side-slip over it, and get over the lip and things get better fast, but manageable for intermediates since its groomed well, well for this intermediate anyway. Great place, best in upstate NY or Mass in my humble opinion.

Catamount probably is the best place to learn skiing, awesome ski school for kids and the mountain itself is often left quite untouched (read management is either trying to save money or who knows what) so conditions can get unpredictable in a hurry, the steeps are as steep as Windham/Hunter/Jiminy and there are slopes with multiple fall lines(so runaway skiers flashing across in a traverse is not an uncommon sight! full disclosure : i have been amongst those skiers scrambling for control in the past!) and piles of snow, ice, and moguls and some cruisers. Just that Jiminy's runs as Windham's, the direct steeps are longer than the Cat. Though Cat's around the mountain runs are actually as long if not longer. The key is Catamounts unpredictable terrain is perfect for learning how to ski beyond the groomed slopes and the dropoffs get steep in a hurry and except for Catapult, are short enough to train on without risking life or limb. Lifties there are the best, actually pay attention to everyone, especially kids, now that is worth its weight in gold.

Butternut is also maintained well like jiminy, while trails are longer than the Cat but the blacks are good for the ego, since any intermediate can lay down some serious wide-radius carves. Lifts not the greatest but better than Windham.

Anything but Windham. I have not been to Hunter but from all those who skied with me, their pointed observation was since I was so disgusted with Windham, I would run away from Hunter! (note I did go on the ending Saturday of the Prez day holiday week so that could have biased impression..)
Edited by dustyfog - 3/8/10 at 11:10am
post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post

Windham in my personal view is the worst place I have skiied in the North-East . For the North-east I have only skiied places in upstate NY and SW Massachusetts, so Vermont and points north are not included in this commentary.

Did every single black and double diamond (sans too mogulled, one run only had major moguls at Windham) at Windham, and all that jazz which people like to crow about(trails wolverine, why not, wingin it, wedel etc..). Note I am a beginner to cusp-of-intermediate skier and ski calmly, under reasonable sure-footed control, and carve often enough, no snap-left-right descents, cool arc-to-arc often edge locked descents, short radius for steeps and longer radius for gentler terrain. My friends, both skiers and riders, experienced and expert thought the trails were pretty icy, and they had gotten a ton of snow, well cest la vie. Also, the parking lot, good luck waiting for the ski-bus-shuttle in the cold, i think they have one bus, that's what it looked like, faster to walk but some walk it is. I can only imagine what families have to do when they have the entire clan in tow, and the adults have to lug all the gear. One sign you can tell its a mess is they actually have "security" standing around in the cafetaria ! security! that is a telling sign as to their past experience with their clientele!

That said Windham has a terrible lift system, they are as bad/outdated/archaic/rickety as tiny hills in Mass which only a local could find, its full of skiers and boarders with zero mountain etiquette or common sense (not all of course but one too many which made an impression; funny that many folks there do NOT understand, if one is standing off to the side of the mountain, its to get out of their way, they insist on sliding into you out of control). And the base is a zoo with all kinds of crappy promotions, its not skiing, its noise. Nothing pristine or beautiful about the experience. The best thing about Windham was the drive there through some backroads in the Catskills since I missed the Windham turn when rte 23 forks left to Windham (I went straight! the drive was very pretty though, rustic, snow-filled..nice, narrow windy, snow filled roads)

Best mountain in upstate NY and SW Mass is Jiminy Peak hands down(its a fingertip into Mass from NY border jsut beyond I-90). Management takes care of that mountain, and the lifts are run well and sensibly. They actually pay attention to the skiers. base is also not a total mess but sure it can get crowded. The grooming at Jiminy is very good. Even the trailers which pick you up from the parking lots are so frequent and efficient, just the hallmark of a very well-managed mountain, and clever, they hitch horse wagons onto small trucks, you get in stand with your gear and you are at the base! Skiing Jericho, Whitetail, Whirlaway on days with the wind screaming at the top, reportedly 30mph+ the day I was there, (its in a Wind corridor, one Windmill at the top of Jiminy, another cluster of 4 or so across on another hill!) and the snow flying up over the lip makes for an interesting experience! Its steep for sure, and the top of Jericho (has to do with wind-hit angle I conjecture) is often a sheet of ice, no ifs and buts, but side-slip over it, and get over the lip and things get better fast, but manageable for intermediates since its groomed well, well for this intermediate anyway. Great place, best in upstate NY or Mass in my humble opinion.

Catamount probably is the best place to learn skiing, awesome ski school for kids and the mountain itself is often left quite untouched (read management is either trying to save money or who knows what) so conditions can get unpredictable in a hurry, the steeps are as steep as Windham/Hunter/Jiminy and there are slopes with multiple fall lines(so runaway skiers flashing across in a traverse is not an uncommon sight! full disclosure : i have been amongst those skiers scrambling for control in the past!) and piles of snow, ice, and moguls and some cruisers. Just that Jiminy's runs as Windham's, the direct steeps are longer than the Cat. Though Cat's around the mountain runs are actually as long if not longer. The key is Catamounts unpredictable terrain is perfect for learning how to ski beyond the groomed slopes and the dropoffs get steep in a hurry and except for Catapult, are short enough to train on without risking life or limb. Lifties there are the best, actually pay attention to everyone, especially kids, now that is worth its weight in gold.

Butternut is also maintained well like jiminy, while trails are longer than the Cat but the blacks are good for the ego, since any intermediate can lay down some serious wide-radius carves. Lifts not the greatest but better than Windham.

Anything but Windham. I have not been to Hunter but from all those who skied with me, their pointed observation was since I was so disgusted with Windham, I would run away from Hunter! (note I did go on the ending Saturday of the Prez day holiday week so that could have biased impression..)
 

Disagree with a lot here.

1. WINDHAM IS NOT AN EXPERT MOUNTAIN. The double blacks are a black at Hunter. So stop complaining about lack of challenging terrain, as it is highly geared towards intermediates.
2. Conditions are a hit and miss. You can have really crappy conditions at any mountain. I've been to Hunter and Butternut the day after 6 inches of snow, but it was a windstorm both days and some spots were top to bottom wind blown creating a massive sheet of ice. Bad condtions can happen ANYWHERE.
3. Windham is definitely not outdated lifts. 2 high speed lifts, that beats Jiminy, Hunter, Belleayre, anywhere in the area.
4. "Best mountain in upstate NY and SW Mass is Jiminy Peak hands down" - Ever been to Gore and Whiteface? Cause that's upstate NY and there's no comparison.
5. Jericho is like equal to Upper Wolverine at Windham. AKA a single black at any other mountain. Both are quite easy and groomed. And Jiminy is not expert oriented at all. Everything is groomed flat. At Windham, at least they have some bumps existing.
6. You say the steeps at Catamount are as steep as Windham/Hunter/Jiminy? No wayyyyy. Catapult is steeper than everyone run at Jiminy and Windham, but besides that there are several runs close to as steep and a lot steeper than the blacks at Catamount. And you later say you've never been to Hunter, so how can you say this? Hunter has plenty of runs steeper and longer than Catapult-- Lower K27 (much steeper but not longer), Claire's Way (same steepness, way longer), Westway (steeper and way longer), and Annapurna (same steepness, way longer), among other's that are the same steepness but shorter (Upper Crossover, Racer's Edge).
7. "Though Cat's around the mountain runs are actually as long if not longer." Wraparound @ Windham, Belt Parkway @ Hunter, and Left Bank/Westway @ Jiminy are a tiny bit shorter (1/4 mile), but you gotta add on 600 vertical at Windham and Hunter... there's also a ton of flat parts on these around the mountain runs at Catamount.

Give Windham another try and if you're "too good for it", try Hunter on an uncrowded weekend or midweek.
post #11 of 19
Fair enough. Good repartee. Now for some facts:
  1. read first para - I am NOT an expert, humble neophyte working on enjoying his skiing - "Note I am a beginner to cusp-of-intermediate skier and ski calmly, under reasonable sure-footed control, and carve often enough, no snap-left-right descents, cool arc-to-arc often edge locked descents, short radius for steeps and longer radius for gentler terrain". The point of mentioning the runs was that we skiied the entire mountain inbounds, pretty much.
  2. the judgement stands on the mountain as a whole, speed of lifts, each lift waiting slot is NOT wide enough for fair-sized american pals of mine and these are super fit young kids (mid 20's athletes), i am the old one there and comparatively slight. the markers for waiting are the worst I have ever seen.
  3. you are correct, i have not gone further north, and hence lake placid and points north are excluded from the comparison as was vermont, maine, and new hampshire.
  4. hunter does have a few steeper runs i hear, yes, hear, i make it clear i have not been there but pointed out judgement of those skiing with me as our day progressed at Windham. In terms of steep, here are reported steeps at these relevant mountains, the hunter number is suspect but i did not measure them, just reporting the numbers - source is : ski-degrees.synthasite.com/
Upper Wolverine @ Windham Mountain, NY: 641 vertical over 1446 length = 23.91*.
138 vertical over 207 length = 33.69*.
Upper Wheelchair @ Windham Mountain, NY: 560 vertical over 1215 length = 24.75*.
139 vertical over 195 length = 35.48*.
Wedel @ Windham Mountain, NY: 530 vertical over 1222 length = 23.45*.
116 vertical over 204 length = 29.62*.
Upper Wipeout @ Windham Mountain, NY: 470 vertical over 1124 length = 22.69*.
114 vertical over 201 length = 29.56*.

 Catapult @ Catamount, NY: 422 vertical over 823 length = 27.15*. Boasts the steepest run in the Berkshires. Probably true!
281 vertical over 510 length = 28.85*.
115 vertical over 203 length = 29.53*.
75 vertical over 126 length = 30.76*.

Lower K27 @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 415 vertical over 518 length = 38.7*.
209 vertical over 201 length = 46.12*. WHAT THE...? Pretty damn steep! My suggestion: very inaccurate stats. Not to be trusted LOL!
Upper Clair's Way @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 977 vertical over 1962 length = 26.47*. Lower Claire's Way is when Way Out ends.
362 vertical over 573 length = 32.28*.
201 vertical over 264 length = 37.28*.
615 vertical over 1389 length = 23.88*. These are the numbers besides the above numbers.
Westway @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 964 vertical over 1763 length = 28.67*.
446 vertical over 634 length = 35.13*.
361 vertical over 500 length = 35.83*.

 

207 vertical over 268 length = 37.68*.
518 vertical over 1129 length = 24.65*. These are the numbers besides the above numbers.
Annapurna @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 1137 vertical over 2833 length = 21.87*.
    5. I stand by my observation, Windham's facilities and general slope management is lousy in comparison to Jiminy and Butternut. To each their own of course.
    6. Finally, the complaint focused totally on the skiing experience, and not on the steeps, i most certainly am not good enough for any mountain but I like my skiing to be about skiing and these are my humble observation.
     7. Catapult's steepness is about the same as parts of Glade and Alley Cat basically, its just longer, has a double fall line in parts and is unpredictable, because of the variable terrain, that's what makes it a slope which is difficult even for the experts, so they tell me anyway, and the evidence is that when it gets tricky, it is almost always left alone other than the ignorant few, who venture on it, either bail at exit points or bounce or slide their way down with wild traverse (you will note that I confess to having experienced those too).
     8. Windham is a crappy place, it is'nt going to change, the lift system designers should visit a few other places to take safety and ease of transport lessons.

That is the core of the opinion. Then again to each their own. I will try Hunter as you suggest mid-week if I can before season is out but looking iffy right now.

Thanks for the additional info.
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post

Windham in my personal view is the worst place I have skiied in the North-East . For the North-east I have only skiied places in upstate NY and SW Massachusetts, so Vermont and points north are not included in this commentary.
 

That's a pretty strong statement for some one who hadn't skied outside of NY and MA!

I'm not a big fan of Windham based on my one and only one visit to it. But I can say MC, which I've been to several times, is CONSISTANTLY worse than the Windham I visited.

And that was my answer to the question of the thread: MC vs. Windham. I'll take my chances with Windham over Mountain Creek.
post #13 of 19
 I agree with skiking4, good counterpoints to DustyFog.  Windham is definitely not a bad mountain.  It's got two great detachable quads servicing each of its peaks.  

As for which mountain Mountain Creek vs Windham.  I don't see it as too much of a comparison.  Given an equal drive, you would have to be crazy to choose MC.  

I'm an expert skier with a beginner/intermediate family.  Mountain Creek has nice cruisers, but Windham's cruisers are just as good.  The expert terrain at Windham is longer, steeper and there is more of it to choose from.  

The base lodge at Windham is fine, and there is a nice mid mountain lodge.  I don't remember the lodge at Mountain Creek.

 
post #14 of 19
at_nyc: i laughed when i read your response. I was trying to suggest to the OP that there are better places than Windham. I have no opinion on Mountain Creek.

I confined my assessments to the 6 places or so I have skied in the N-East in the NY, Mass corridor. I wrote : "For the North-East ... " I did not include Alberta, Utah or Austria which I have skied but not quite pertinent to the original question.

Now I can add that Belleayre on that side of the Hudson is close enough and far more of a skier or riders mountain than either Windham. But then again, this is one poster's opinion. Note I do love Catamount, something very basic, raw and beautiful about it, and their kids ski school for beginners is as good as anything I have seen anywhere including the western, and foreign locales mentioned above. Jiminy is the more professionally managed spot of the lot. That was all. And I did post all the factors, holiday weekend, etc. but does not change the "tight fit" for my local i.e. NY downstate pals and european pals, in the lift-loading docks, all of whom skied there that day, it was a royal you-know-what...and for this I lay the responsibility squarely on the feet of management, the folks skiing are like skiers almost anywhere else, some good, mostly novices, though I think GregDi saw and felt something which makes perfect sense and jives with our overall experience :
GregDi : "The staff were savages, and the clientele was less than stellar."

Who has security in a ski lodge cafetaria ??? First time I ever saw it, we rolled our eyes...oh well.

The irony is Hunter is the most popular in terms of traffic in the 3.5 hr corridor which speaks to its success and popularity, but have not yet anyone who likes the mountain. Then again, could be a very different place during the week versus the weekends and holidays. That is true for Windham true, I will agree there.
Edited by dustyfog - 3/8/10 at 7:32pm
post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by kermit88 View Post

The base lodge at Windham is fine, and there is a nice mid mountain lodge.  I don't remember the lodge at Mountain Creek. 

That's because Mountain Creek doesn't have one!  :D

(ok, there's a TENT at the base. But there's no way one can mistaken that for a base LODGE!)
post #16 of 19
Upper Wolverine @ Windham, NY: 495 vertical over 1055 length = 25.14*.
104 vertical over 200 length = 27.47*.
Upper Wheelchair @ Windham, NY: 594 vertical over 1387 length = 23.81*.
120 vertical over 200 length = 30.96*.
Wedel @ Windham, NY: 560 vertical over 1386 length = 22*.

 Catapult @ Catamount, NY: 422 vertical over 823 length = 27.15*. Boasts the steepest run in the Berkshires. Probably true!
281 vertical over 510 length = 28.85*.
115 vertical over 203 length = 29.53*.
75 vertical over 126 length = 30.76*.

Lower K27 @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 306 vertical over 507 length = 31.1*. All data is hugging the skier's right portion of the run.
218 vertical over 320 length = 34.26*.
57 vertical over 70 length = 39.15*. Headwall of second fall line.
50 vertical over 51 length = 44.43*. Headwall of first fall line.
Upper Clair's Way @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 1053 vertical over 2329 length = 24.33*. Lower Claire's Way is when Way Out ends.
529 vertical over 1000 length = 27.88*.
296 vertical over 500 length = 30.63*.
148 vertical over 200 length = 36.5*.
78 vertical over 100 length = 37.95*.
Westway @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 1115 vertical over 2381 length = 25.09*.
580 vertical over 1000 length = 30.11*.
313 vertical over 500 length = 32.04*.
145 vertical over 200 length = 35.94*.
81 vertical over 100 length = 39*.
Annapurna @ Hunter Mountain, NY: 1051 vertical over 2622 length = 21.84*.

Minor update to ski-degrees.synthasite.com/
I put in corrected stats.

I do disagree with one statement in your last post... I found the trouble with Catamount is that there is a big jump from a black run like Glade or Alley Cat to Catapult as there is no pitch that rivals Catapult's steepness in my opinion. I don't think there's a 25 degree pitch elsewhere on the mountain either. That's sort of a problem for advancing black skiers. Just my .02$

And you should definitely hit up Windham when it's uncrowded, sounds like it's up your alley terrain wise with long steep groomers. Hunter sounds a tiny bit more challenging for you, as there are tons of bumps and the terrain is steeper. I'm sure you'll still love it midweek though. Then again I don't know how you ski just inferring from what you said
post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post

at_nyc: i laughed when i read your response. I was trying to suggest to the OP that there are better places than Windham. I have no opinion on Mountain Creek.
 

There are MANY "better places than Windham". Stowe is better, way better. Copper Mountain in Colorado is way, way better!

But the OP didn't ask for "better" mountain in general. He ask which is better between Mountain Creek and Windham. Whether Jiminy or Catamont is better is besides the point. Frankly, since the OP didn't mention his skill level or skiing preference, it's difficult to say what constitute "better"!

However, as most everybody pointed out, there's no contest. Windham is by far the "better" of the two, by any measurement.
post #18 of 19
skiking, thanks for the suggestions, great work on that site by the way on ski-degrees, puts some reality on paper and lets us beginner/intermediates gain or lose confidence, actually gain. On my skiing, i have now skied with others and they say I do not look like a beginner on the double diamonds at Jiminy or Windham, and yes the groomed runs are very helpful, big bumps like on catapult or offstage are definitely something where my beginner status should become apparent, that continuous bouncing just throws me off  my rhythm, something to work on...slowly! maybe you can do the same thing with slopes out west or europe...very helpful.
post #19 of 19
Regarding the OP, yeah, definitely Windham over MC.

As for the rest of the suggestions, I'd say just try them out! In the Catskills you've got Windham, Belleayre, Hunter, and Plattekill. I personally don't like the way the front side trains of Hunter are laid out, but I love Hunter West. I've found people at Hunter and Windham to be both nice and obnoxious, depending on the day. Those two tend to be the most popular for people driving up from NYC (like me), but there tend to be slightly larger crowds at Hunter. Belleayre and Plattekill are a little further–and as such, tend to have chiller crowds–but can be totally worth it.

Each mountain in the Catskills has its own pros and cons. Wedel, Wolverine, Wipeout, the trails on the west side of Windham, can get some gnarly, icy moguls, or they can be fun, steep soft bumps. There's often a line of bumps under the triple, too, that are at an easy incline so you can practice bump technique. Hunter West can also be icy and gnarly, or it can have pristine conditions. Belleayre and Plattekill have amazing groomers, but they, too, can be nasty or nice.

Just remember that part of the joy of skiing is the unpredictability of the weather. GregDi, there are *very* few mountains on the East Coast, if any, that will be making snow this late in the season. It's simply a matter of economics...it's not profitable to start pumping thousands of gallons of water up the mountain when they already have a nice, thick base that they can ride out to the end of the year. True, it would be nicer if the snow were soft and new, or at least sunny and soft like it will be this week, but I always like to approach the conditions with the mindset of, "well, great, now I get to practice skiing hardpack today!"

If it's icy at Windham, it's bound to be icy elsewhere. Like I suggest above, everyone is going to have different reasons for preferring one mountain to another but the Catskill mountains usually have very similar weather and snow conditions. Best thing to do is sharpen up those edges and use the day to improve your skills! If you go to a mountain with the mindset that you just want to get some runs under your feet and skiing in all conditions is fun, the only thing that can stop you from having a bad day is a long lift line that prevents you from getting as many runs as you want.
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