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The Phantom Move...

post #1 of 60
Thread Starter 

In one of the threads you mentioned "the phantom move." I was wondering what you mean by this.


post #2 of 60
Just in case Pierre eh! is upside down somewhere, I'd suggest you visit: http://www.harbskisystems.com/
post #3 of 60
Pierre eh is holding vigil awaiting the arrival of his new 10.EX's
post #4 of 60

Pierre is upside somewhere, I know it.
post #5 of 60
I think I use a version of it to get people from open parallel into dynamic...it actually works really well with kids.
post #6 of 60
Nope, Iz been at the annual telemark party at the winking lizard and I actually won the grand door prize. A pair of new tele bindings. Riva Z, a little dated but new.
post #7 of 60
Here a piece of an article I wrote a couple years back which basically describes the "phantom move":

"As you finish the turn and come across the falline making a medium radius turn, trigger the release of the turn and simultaneously transfer weight to the uphill, little toe edge by relaxing (or shortening) the outside dominant leg. You are slowly releasing the turn while finishing the turn shape. Now fully across the falline and ready for the new turn you are standing more
on two feet with legs still bent (due to weight transfer via "dominant"
leg shortening as opposed to extending the uphill leg). Now flatten the skis to the snow and as you continue to lighten that new inside foot to transfer your balance and weight to the new "dominant" turning/stance leg.

As this natural weight transfer occurs, continue to tip the newly un-weighted (inside) foot to its little toe edge. This simple move creates the engagement of the dominant leg's inside (big toe) edge, which is, in effect, the new carve turn. You are now in the falline of the new turn completing the movement sequence and "linking fallines."

The desrbes basically describes the phantom movement sequence. Hoepfully this addresses the initial question on this discussion thread.

post #8 of 60
Thread Starter 
question answered.
post #9 of 60
de nada

post #10 of 60
in case you or anyone is interested in a little more...the movement described above is focusing on a groomed run or firm snow example; the dominant leg implies that the outside will carry a lot more weight in the turn then the iside for most of each turn. In the words, the inside ski stays very light through the same portionof each turn.

The cool thing about this "phantom move" (to quote a popular source), to link turns, is that it really works for varying snow conditions as well. With matching edge angles through your turns, it is very easy to create varying degrees of the two-ski platform. Very powerful and smooth for ripping all kinds of fun lines in different snow conditions and terrain demands.

The transition move is the same. To release one turn evoles sequentially through neutral and flows directly into the engagement of the new turn. The movement of relaxing your outsiden then inside (alomost together in powder, crud, and longer radiaus turns) is the key. Then simply lead the edge change with the same foot keeping it light through tranisition right into the top of the next turn. As your G's build through the turn, you can stand on one or two feet depending snow, turn radius or whatever.

It is simpicitic, easy to do, and conistent across the board. I dig it. :
post #11 of 60
The Phantom move really describes the most basic form of efficient turn initiation. The Phantom Move is also a copywritten description of Harb Ski Systems Inc. In my opinion it is a more simplified easier to comprehend description of the same thing that PSIA endorses. The copywrite prevents PSIA from using the Phantom Move name or it's description in PSIA literature. Harald Harb and PSIA had a falling out with many hard feelings. Harb then brillantly developed Harb Ski Systems better know as PMTS (Primary Movements Teaching System). Harb then made the mistake of attacking PSIA to the point where many rank and file instructors who would normally attack PSIA as well, quickly feel in line to defend PSIA and reject PMTS. This was unfortunate as PSIA instructors are Harbs best avenue to PMTS acceptance and usage. Will you be at Aspen again for winter break? If so, you are in an area where PMTS is easy to see.
PMTS in it's western form and printed form, is about as useful at BM/BW on a Friday night as bowling balls on your feet. Roger Kane (a midwestern PSIA examiner and PMTS blue cert) came up with a progression based on PMTS that will work at BM/BW on a Friday. You can veiw this in the white pages over on www.hyperchangecafe.com We would still have a problem at BM/BW because so much of our rental fleet has old damaged rear entry boots and straight skis that haven't been tuned in 300 skier days. There is little incentive to really change. BM/BW is booking about 10% over last year with of course the same number of instructors. Expect large class sizes. They are looking at increasing the never ever learning area at BM by about a 1/3 by adding nearly 3/4 of an acre. They are hoping to not put students clear across the bottom of tiger (our steepest/bump run with a narrow runout).
Will you be around BM on Sunday? Jessie is testing on the mat.
post #12 of 60


What's the URL to Roger Kane's article?
post #13 of 60
"Egos playing with Words" would be a better term.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

"watch me wedel from the cradle"
post #14 of 60
SCSA, Roger's article is in the Practice section at hyperchange cafe: http://www.hyperchangecafe.com./Prac...rogression.htm
post #15 of 60
About 1988 I had a clinic with Roger. He set me on a path that evolved into a turn initiation sequence that is basically the same as the "Phantom Move" decribed above. None of us(to my knowledge) had heard of HH then. I have been using a variation of this with my athletes for at least eight years. It works even better with shaped skis. Two years ago I cliniced with Roger and again he gave me some good ideas. He was working on that sequence then and it made good sense to me.
I've heard that Roger is conidered kind of a maverick in the examiner corps but I've probably gotten more good stuff from him than all the rest put together.
post #16 of 60
I think Roger is a PMTS guy, no?
post #17 of 60
Who cares, SCSA? He certainly wasn't in 1988. Whether he is or isn't, is 100% irrelevant to the validity or value of his, or anyone else's ideas! I know that you think a PMTS membership card is the ONLY thing that determines the validity of someone's point. Please--WHY?

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #18 of 60
Bob and SCSA....are you PMTS guys? Are either of you PMTS accreditted?
post #19 of 60
I intend to look into it further but it sounds kind of dogmatic. It sounds like there is some "head knocking" going on in Central about it. I do PSIA once every two years to keep my certification current. Since they wouldn't give me ed credit for the National Acadamy (I didn't think to apply before I went) I have to go this year. I expect Roger will give me an update.
post #20 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bob and SCSA....are you PMTS guys? Are either of you PMTS accreditted<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ESki. Welcome to Epicski. There's a bunch of us out here waiting for this reply.
post #21 of 60

I think I was just pointing out that Roger likes PMTS. You know, an old time PSIA person that likes what HH is doing. No biggie.


I'm a PMTS Wacko, but I'm not certified. I'm a student who just stand on the sidelines, cheering for it.
post #22 of 60
SCSA-I went to Loveland Friday with my daughter. Hoped to see you. We didn't stay long. A bit too crowded with a kid. Saw HH on Wednesday and Friday. Plan to go for sure on Wednesday and maybe on Monday. I'm going Wednesday with a woman who is a PSIA cert and who has done the first PMTS clinic. She is coordinating some early season clinics for HH at Copper. I'll look for you both days.
post #23 of 60
Hello everyone,

Harb's Phantom foot move is Lito's "phantom edging." You are refered to pp. 89-90 along with figures 3.5 and 3.6 and additionally p.94 which is the summary of Chapter 3 in Lito's new book, "breakthrough on the new skis."

I don't think there are going to be any law suits either over this one, since Harald Harb is one of the people that received an acknowledgment of "special thanks!"
post #24 of 60
Hey SCSA--I'm an "old PSIA person" that likes a great deal of what Harald has done too! I don't buy the whole package--no secret there--and I despise its "packaging"--but I've often stated fundamental agreement with many of the principles Harald espouses.

Geez, even Harald once came to me, a few seasons back, and told me he had been referring students my way because he apparently agreed with what he'd heard about me! I believe he has probably withdrawn that support, since I find much to disagree with, despite fundamental similarities. I've often stated that probably no two instructors think more alike, yet disagree more vehemently, than Harald and I!

No, Eski, I am not currently accredited by PMTS, nor do I have any intention of seeking accreditation at this time. I believe that I have a fairly good understanding of what PMTS is about, and other than Harald Harb's unsupported blanket statement that, as a member of PSIA, I "don't get it," no one has yet demonstrated any specific points that I've missed (others may disagree, and I am always willing to discuss their objections if they can provide some fact-based support for them). I may reach different conclusions, but not because of ignorance of the details.

I've been acquainted with Harald, and moreso with Rich Messer at SolVista and some of Harald's other top trainers, for some time. I've worked with a lot of people who have worked with Harald, in both the technical and teaching end of his program. I admire and respect many of these guys--Harald too--and we've kicked around a lot of ideas on the snow and elsewhere.

PMTS has some good ideas, and many that do not hold up well to real scrutiny. That's my opinion, but the archives are full of discussions that will allow you to draw your own conclusions.

While I do not see sufficient value for myself in spending my time and money on PMTS accreditation, I have openly encouraged many instructors to attend PMTS clinics. PMTS represents a fairly clear, concise progression that involves some highly contemporary movement patterns. For any instructor or skier wanting some quick ideas about new skis and contemporary technique, or boot setup and alignment, a PMTS clinic would certainly be one place to go.

I only encourage people to go there, as anywhere, with an open, but questionning, mind. A little healthy skepticism and a determination to test new ideas--not just blindly accept them--is always a good idea!

So try every movement, explore every idea. Demand evidence for any claim that sounds suspicious or outrageous, and don't be afraid to question something, even as you try it. You can't lose!

Just as any idea and every movement has its place in good skiing, it is also true that NO idea or movement is the "be all-end all." I fully admit, with applause, that many skiers and instructors have experienced great results from PMTS. But I also submit, categorically, that anyone who refuses to seek knowledge from any and every source available is missing something! There are many paths--and many destinations!

Some may argue that I am not qualified to criticize PMTS until I have become accredited by it. I agree! I do NOT criticize PMTS. I have discussed many ideas about skiing, without regard to their source. A move is a move, an idea an idea. They will stand or fall on their own merits, regardless of who claims ownership or origin. In our discussions here on EpicSki and elsewhere, many of the ideas and claims that PMTS is founded on have failed to withstand our scrutiny. And this has ruffled more than a few feathers, for reasons that escape me.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #25 of 60
Nice job, Barnes. And, I'll have to say that I'm in mainly in agreement with you. And no, I haven't adjusted my medication.

You know, I skied with PinHed last week. He's an awesome tele skier. Anyway, he told me that years ago when he taught his wife to ski he taught her balance and to make the first move with the downhill ski (PMTS in a nutshell). I thought this was interesting. I guess this is what you call "contemporary movement patterns"?

And, when I watch good skiers, they definitely use contemporary movement patterns. They have good balance, they relax their stance leg to start the turn, and they ski on all four edges.

So Bob. What are your thoughts about this statement?

Contemporary movement patterns have been around for a long time it's just that they weren't taught to the "masses". But now, with the recent advancements in equipment, ie; shaped skis and alignment, contemporary movement patterns should be taught to every beginning skier.
post #26 of 60
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And, when I watch good skiers, they definitely use contemporary movement patterns. They have good balance, they relax their stance leg to start the turn, and they ski on all four edges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, SCSA, I'll buy that. But even this clear statemement probably warrants some discussion.

Today's best skiers (highly subjective!) ski with contemporary movement patterns. But there are still a lot of old-timers out there who ski on old equipment with beautiful, elegant, techniques from another era. I still recognize these skiers as "good skiers"--with perhaps even a bit of envy!

As for those contemporary movement patterns, you've described them in a nice little nutshell! I would only add, though, that these particular movements, contemporary and important as they are, still represent only a very small fraction of the movement options required for expert skiing, for true mastery of the mountains!

If I had to pick one point in your description for further discussion, I'd pick on "relax the stance leg to start the turn."
Yes, that is one way to look at it, and it can suffice in many cases, as long as everything else is "in the right place" and moving in the right direction. But I prefer to think of ACTIVATING that leg--turning it, perhaps, to whatever degree needed, tipping it (off its inside edge, through flat, to its outside edge), adding enough muscle tension to deal with whatever pressure remains on it. And especially if the desire, or the conditions, require skiing on both skis (using all four edges, as you described it), that leg must do much more than just "relax."

When we balance on the outside ski (an assumption that is also worth discussing), the outside ski is where the "action" is--but the inside ski is where the activity is. It's like walking--we stand on one foot, but the movement is with the other leg and the rest of the body. Indeed, the only thing that doesn't move is that foot we're standing on!

Sounds like Loveland is skiing pretty well already. I had thought of going up there for a few turns, but I've been busy catching up on all the things that you need to catch up on when you get back from vacation.... I'll probably make it up there sometime this coming week.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #27 of 60
Excellent post Bob [img]smile.gif[/img]
It sounds like you and Bob agree
post #28 of 60
SCSA and BB, would you (could you? can you?) identify and put in print these "contemporary movement patterns" for those of us who are comparatively unfamiliar wit PMTS? I assume that balance and alignment are involved, but what, specifically, are the rest? I'm currently re-writing the training manual at my area and I'm always in for other ideas. How do these patterns differ from those supported by PSIA?

PS. I'm not interested in reading how one is superior to the other because it wouldn't be the truth. I'm simply looking to see what PMTS's key movements are... also, where do I get my hands on some literature on the subject? THANKS!!!!
post #29 of 60
Hi Bob,

Let me start out by saying that I am a person who has at least read much of the discussion you refer to here and elsewhere. As another part of my preface let me say that I personally do not feel that I am a member of any "cult" and in fact I think its silly and counter productive to view skiing (or much else for that matter) with an us vs. them mentality. As a response to your comments and an attempt to provide you with sincere and useful feedback I offer the following.

In a general sense I agree that exploration of ideas and methods should never be limited (especially as an educator). However, at the same time it is important to remember that effective learning often (not always) occurs with a somewhat disciplined or guided approach. Of course the importance of an educator (ski insturctor, coach, professor, teacher, etc.) is probably best exhibited by their ability to respond to an individual's needs, abilities, and way of thinking.

Based on my reading of the discussions here and elsewhere, my impression about many of the ideas and claims that PMTS is founded on runs quite opposite of yours. I conclude that the basis for PMTS is quite sound and in fact is much stronger than even presented. (I am working on an article about cognitive and perceptual issues in skiing and hope to write a second one on the cognitive and perceptual basis for the PMTS approach). I find that many of the postings in regard to ATS come off as confusing rationalizations. I have no doubt that ATS (or at least your understanding of ATS) may contain many if not all of the fundamental concepts PMTS is founded upon but they appear to be embedded in a lot of "noise" (in the engineering sense). To me, the disucssions here and elsewhere focus to some extent on what occurs as opposed to how to simply make it happen with various types of ski technique. This is certainly interesting and thought provoking but not necessarily an effective way to develop a teaching system. I suspect it may have it's best utility in analyzing the outcomes of a teaching progression. I find that the PMTS approach is a recognition of this fact and provides the most disciplined approach I have seen for effectively teaching someone an efficient and very versatile method of skiing.

Do I think that a PMTS approach is the end-all? Absolutely not. Do I think it is optimal for absolutely everyone? No. Are there others with similar approaches? Yes. Even with that said, however, I think that PMTS offers some unique advantages such as its focus on choice and use "external cues." I also think that a skier who uses a PMTS approach can achieve a sense of balance and control in their skiing that will allow them to readily explore all sorts of directions for further exploration of ski technique (including rotary, steering, pivoting, extension, and other movements). [I kind of worry about response evoked from that last parenthetical comment as I know the arguments about how they are present in all types of skiing - but that's an old discussion that is part of the basis for my interpretations].

So let's keep on talking about the differences, advantages, and shortcomings of PMTS, ATS, and all other approaches. I certainly hope you will accept these comments for their intended purpose - a chance to give you and others feedback about someone elses interpretations of discussions here and elsewhere that may vary from your own. I certainly hope that such feedback back will be of some value to you and others here and taken in the positive sense in which it is offered.
post #30 of 60

I really need to stay out of this from here on out. Rick H can do a much better job of describing the movement patterns in PMTS than I can.
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