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Mogul Skis

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I've been reading a number of the threads on here, and have been seriously considering a pair of mogul skis.  I currently ski in CO, but per my other thread I'm moving to Boston next year, so it'll be NE skiing for me.  I'm getting more and more into skiing moguls this year (still don't do freestyle stuff, but that may change) and I'd like to continue that out east, especially because I think that's one type of skiing that can be found anywhere.

I currently ski a pair of 178cm K2 PEs (I'm 5'10", male and ~ 165) and they serve me pretty well.  However, I'd like something more bump specific.  My first question is, am I an idiot for wanting a bump-only ski.  My second question, assuming the first answer is no, is what kind of bump ski (bump-specific, something more general, etc.) and what length.  I've been looking at some of the usual bump-specific skis:

http://shop.aspeneast.com/browse.cfm/4,3051.html (Dynastar Twister, not badly priced at $380, I was thinking 175 cm)
http://www.untracked.com/c94-skis_ski_packages_mens_mogul_skis.html (a bunch of skis, though I'm not really considering anything more than $450 or so)

For a binding (I know next to nothing about bindings) I was considering:
http://shop.aspeneast.com/browse.cfm/4,3605.html (Look PX12 Jib Trouble, $200)

And then I've also heard suggestions for something a little less specific but nothing really definitive.  I consider the PEs a pretty good all-around ski, so I don't really think I want another all-around ski, but I could be wrong.
post #2 of 21
def,

I am new on here and am interested in purchasing a good ski for similar terrain. Moguls, namely. Though, for me 'moguls' more importantly conveys the pitch more than it says how tight the bumps need to be.

I am scoping out the best wisdom on this site on exactly the same question.

I'm bigger than you and you sound a decade younger than me but I suspect we are looking for a similar tool.

I joined this site a few nights ago. I began basically probing this site for similar wisdoms.

What I ran into was a crew of hotshots who wanted to steer me into a longer ski than the technology is prepared to award to guys like you and me with cash.

Some turkeys on here are dickin' around with people and I think you have to beware of this sad fact.

It's less a worry in your case. Your younger so your body can still adapt to a ski. Me I am completely unfamiliar with the K2 line.

What I can tell you is I am hunting for a good mogul ski - for my age - and for New Englands gnarliest hills.

Rule #1 in my opinion. Insist on a ski waist no wider than 72mm.

Rule #2, (again, IMHO). Try to target a brand like Head that has tooled up for a good five year plus durability run behind a good dampening design.

In theory a guy your size, under age 50, could scream holy timbers on the ski that is shaped not too outrageously wide at the front shovel. But it should be under 170cm I think. For me anyway. Because I am older and am carrying the extra 50 lbs. You being lighter I'd say you'd want the "MOGUL" ski to be all the shorter. Somebody on this site dared to suggest a 155cm Head ski was what I wanted to have for moguls and after 53 years on skis and seeing how strong these skis are nowadays, I am a hair trigger away from gobbling up a pair of 155's.

Rule #3. Don't get suckered into a pair of demos.

Rule #4 The Volkl Ar30's will suck for you in any length longer than 163cm. To give you a semi-educated guage.
post #3 of 21
Defens, I just posted this thread on a previous thread:

Bump technique is more important than the skis. I’ve been a big bump skier since the 70’s and the ‘stacked style’ taught by folks like Jon Smart, Chuck Martin (both camps & video), Nelson Carmichael, or in Dan DiPiro’s book is a major evolution in bump skiing. If you are looking to buy a bump ski and not a pro or hard core, then I recommend a wider shovel like the Volkl Wall Mogul or Hart F-217 All Mountain or possibly the new K2 Momba (the old is very skinny).  The Rossi is fun but break easily (foam core) unless you have the special W-C version. If you want a true bump ski for a first time purchase buy some online or on ebay, like the Dynastar Twister, Head Mad-Trix, any Volkl (Dragon Slayer, Rebellion), Solomon 1080 Mogul, or K2 Cabrawler. If the bumps are tight go 5cm shorter. (I'm 6', 190 and old). 

Defens: I think the Twister is one of the best bump ski's ever and the Look bindings are the best. If you are moving back east I would avoid a super soft ski like the Solomon and aim at the Dynastar, Head or Volkl. As a 50 year old, still trying to zip lines and go inverted, I have scaled back to a 175 and loving it. I don't have the strength or endurance to cruise at speed so don't need 180+ anymore. Personally, I wouldn't go as short as Pole Plant recommends but see if you can borrow a pair of bump skis to try out. 5cm really makes a difference, so does pole length.  I don't know of a mogul ski wider than 75cm (Hart @ 67cm) so I agree with Pole Plant b/c  you need quick edge to edge action. Good luck
post #4 of 21

I think the first step here needs to be to identify which school of mogul skiing you wish to pursue. This is important because the requirements for each differ greatly and not being able to identify between the two will leave you very confused. So im going take this thread into a detour because you cant simply say this is the best mogul ski without understanding how you wish to approach moguls.


My understanding after years and years of mogul skiing is that you are either a fall line mogul skier or a navigational line mogul skier. Im not too familiar with the latter and I believe it was recently labeled as technical line. I think navigational line is more fitting.
 

Fall line mogul skiing is a style where balance and absorption are key in maintaining control. This is a fast line where tips are constantly kept pointed down the fall line and body movements can be described as reactionary. The fall line is the line in which momentum and gravity naturally pull your body down the slope. Depending on speed and other factors, there really isnt too too much traditional turning here. As long as you master balance and absorption, you can hit the fall line on any size mogul with any steepness while maintaining control and this is an art within itself. There are a lot of parallel skills which compliment this style which can then be reapplied to moguls or applied to other skill areas. Fall line mogul skiing can be dangerous and can easily put you into an out of control crash and lead to injury. Unfortunately, this may be the only way to learn so I think its best to start young.


Navigational line mogul skiing is obviously a more controlled line and has more emphasis on turning. I think styles like SVMM fall into here. This is going to be a slower line, but you will have more if not total control and I would think its more forgiving. This stuff is very documented and I believe most instructors will lead you down this path.
 

A lot of skiers today actually use a mix of both which really kind of complicates my point here. I know back in ‘90s Vermont, it was fall line or nothing. Skis were long and great mogul skiers were everywhere. I think there was a lot of truth and beauty back then and slowly im seeing an awakening...

post #5 of 21
Thread Starter 
While right now I ski a mix of zipper line/fall line and the slower turning/navigation mogul skiing, my goal is to become a better zipper line mogul skier.  I think that skiing the zipper line is one of the most technically graceful skiing techniques and it's what I'd like to work on.
post #6 of 21
Look for a soft shovel. A stiff tail. Sidecut doesn't much matter....
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by defens View Post

I've been reading a number of the threads on here, and have been seriously considering a pair of mogul skis.  I currently ski in CO, but per my other thread I'm moving to Boston next year, so it'll be NE skiing for me.  I'm getting more and more into skiing moguls this year (still don't do freestyle stuff, but that may change) and I'd like to continue that out east, especially because I think that's one type of skiing that can be found anywhere.

I currently ski a pair of 178cm K2 PEs (I'm 5'10", male and ~ 165) and they serve me pretty well.  However, I'd like something more bump specific.  My first question is, am I an idiot for wanting a bump-only ski.  My second question, assuming the first answer is no, is what kind of bump ski (bump-specific, something more general, etc.) and what length.  I've been looking at some of the usual bump-specific skis:

http://shop.aspeneast.com/browse.cfm/4,3051.html (Dynastar Twister, not badly priced at $380, I was thinking 175 cm)
http://www.untracked.com/c94-skis_ski_packages_mens_mogul_skis.html (a bunch of skis, though I'm not really considering anything more than $450 or so)

For a binding (I know next to nothing about bindings) I was considering:
http://shop.aspeneast.com/browse.cfm/4,3605.html (Look PX12 Jib Trouble, $200)

And then I've also heard suggestions for something a little less specific but nothing really definitive.  I consider the PEs a pretty good all-around ski, so I don't really think I want another all-around ski, but I could be wrong.
 

The Twister is a great mogul ski, esp for NE. It has close to the geometry of a circa 2000 all mountain ski. You can still carve or make gs turns on the groomers without working the ski too much. It does have a soft tip and a different feel for the tail. All mogul skis will have a binding mount closer to the center of the ski, so that it gives you more tail for aft/fore stability.

In terms being an idiot for buying a mogul ski, depends what you want to get out of it. If you ski moguls all the time, its great to have and even if your still learning. imo, there are lots of techs needed to be proficient in the bumps, a good mogul ski will help. Loading the front of the ski by weight shifting, lead changes. Relying on knee angulation instead of hip angulation.  Just my opinion, using a ski with more shape gets you out of that mode of using these tech to make a short radius turn.


Having said this, whats more important than the ski is boots. A great fit is important but equally important is softer flex and forward lean. Lots of oder bumpers have a softer flex Lange prolly for the forward lean. Dalbello and Full Tilt is making a comeback, they have the cabrio design where the progressive flex prevents shin bang. NE will have it share of icy or hardpack bumps, having that flex will minimizes the pain at the shins and feet.

Also, look px12 jib, you could prolly find them cheaper, $100 max at ebay, after season.
post #8 of 21

So im going to throw in a few more pennies here... This is kind of what I meant when I said its going to be confusing. Right, I may be preaching a more aggressive approach to moguls, but its important for people to be aware as to progress mogul skiing to 'different' heights.
 

I do not recommend a soft boot. This moves an important point of balance and control from your legs to your boots. The boot will not transfer the much needed power your body gives and receives (yes, its a 2 way street here, think…) when skiing moguls. However, flex is key, so its kind of a fine line. My boots only flex when im hitting the moguls hard or doing something crazy. But then again, im not really paying attention to my boots when I ski.
 

Mount point should be closer to the tails, not the center. Straight and simple, a long tail will hit the backside of a mogul (if you ski long), not good. Plus, the longer the tail the more its going to flex. Finally, a long tail makes skid/slide turning harder. If a long tail gives you more stability, its a backseat problem, not a mount point problem. I would be weary of a mogul ski with a center mount point.
 

On a side note, never change the mount point from the factory recommended point unless you truely understand the construction of the ski. Example, the 2010 twister has a 'power spring'. Not being centered on it is like jumping off the side of a trampoline, not fun.
 

Anyway maybe I should join all the other washed up skiers on the bunny hill skiing with the little kids :[

post #9 of 21
softer flex boot with forward lean helps in getting the hips forward. By doing this, you will get off the backseat. I had stiff boots before, maybe I didn't get them fitted properly but I always had sore ankles and shin bang. The cabrio designs resolves this b/c of the flex, also, lots of new and old bumpers have alter their old langes or skiing with the cabrio design boots.

in terms mogul ski mounts, the recomended line is closer to center. The longer tail helps in that when you feel yourselve in th backseat, you can push off by ankle flexing from the longer tail there by using it as a lever.

btw, I'm not a srping chicken and I have ski with poeple older then me. They have close to the same setup. Check out ms.net, they have some older 40-50 skier over there.
post #10 of 21
I've got 80 flex Nordicas and love them. I feel it gives me easier ankle flex which helps me push my tips down the backsides as well as quicker edge sets.

For me, I like more shovel in front of the bindings, less in the tail. I think it helps with speed control. I don't like the feel of center mounted bindings.
post #11 of 21
People should listen to those who actually know something as opposed to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolePlant View Post

def,

I am new on here and am interested in purchasing a good ski for similar terrain. Moguls, namely. Though, for me 'moguls' more importantly conveys the pitch more than it says how tight the bumps need to be.

I am scoping out the best wisdom on this site on exactly the same question.

I'm bigger than you and you sound a decade younger than me but I suspect we are looking for a similar tool.

I joined this site a few nights ago. I began basically probing this site for similar wisdoms.

What I ran into was a crew of hotshots who wanted to steer me into a longer ski than the technology is prepared to award to guys like you and me with cash.

Some turkeys on here are dickin' around with people and I think you have to beware of this sad fact.

It's less a worry in your case. Your younger so your body can still adapt to a ski. Me I am completely unfamiliar with the K2 line.

What I can tell you is I am hunting for a good mogul ski - for my age - and for New Englands gnarliest hills.

Rule #1 in my opinion. Insist on a ski waist no wider than 72mm.

Rule #2, (again, IMHO). Try to target a brand like Head that has tooled up for a good five year plus durability run behind a good dampening design.

In theory a guy your size, under age 50, could scream holy timbers on the ski that is shaped not too outrageously wide at the front shovel. But it should be under 170cm I think. For me anyway. Because I am older and am carrying the extra 50 lbs. You being lighter I'd say you'd want the "MOGUL" ski to be all the shorter. Somebody on this site dared to suggest a 155cm Head ski was what I wanted to have for moguls and after 53 years on skis and seeing how strong these skis are nowadays, I am a hair trigger away from gobbling up a pair of 155's.

Rule #3. Don't get suckered into a pair of demos.

Rule #4 The Volkl Ar30's will suck for you in any length longer than 163cm. To give you a semi-educated guage.

Rule #4: Your gauge is seriously uneducated. Volkl doesn't even make an Ar30. It's Ac 30. Usually I wouldn't even bother to point that out but you've been spewing too much nonsense. That ski is a good all around ski.  (It is not a mogul ski for this thread.) You actually can't go wrong, you can do "better" perhaps, but it's a  good ski. A lot of it is personal preference.You posted about that ski:

Originally Posted by PolePlant View Post

The Volkl was mostly carveless for me in the size I demo'd at Stowe. I believe it was 175 or whatever. Even when trying to cruise those sticks on Perry Merrill - no matter how much I let it run into long arcs - my edges kept chattering because the danged ski was not snakey enough across the fall line in trail-wide arcs.

Trail wide arcs on Perry Merrill is right up that skis alley. Barring some serious problem with the demo, if you can't carve that ski on Perry Merrill, it's not the ski. I think lessons would help more than skis. It could be the boots too. Maybe they're two sizes too large.

You keep asking for advice, but refuse any that's given. Why don't you just get what you want- a slalom ski or a mogul ski at 165cm. Why bother asking?
You think you like short skis but you don't even know. Just go get something and try it - get a demo cause it's cheaper. Oh right, that violates your rule #3.

Your open mindedness is stunning.
Your knowledge of people on the site even worse:
Originally Posted by PolePlant View Post

You guys who have commented here thus far don't even appear to have a good sense of how to attack off piste stuff and save yourselves hours and dollars in tuneup costs. I mean c'mon you weasels. I say we see which of you self absorbed gurus can actually tell us what size ski Bode will use for the Slalom. Knock off the danged charade here. I may be 58 but I think that'd be a good reason for a younger, more errant prone, cheater kinda freestyler to not to give a crap whether anybody else FOUND the advantages of running a shorter ski.

Please.

This should not be a generational thang.

I promise I will never get to challenge your dreams of Shaun Whiteness.

Ever.
post #12 of 21
How stiff are dedicated mogul skis, like the ones that BigAir mentioned? Stiff except for tips? What would the flex compare to, in terms of 2010 skis? Watea 78? Sultan 85? Blizzard 8.1?

I've never seen mogul skis in skip shops or on the local hills...
post #13 of 21


There is probably a fair amount of variation in tip and tail stiffness among the current crop of bump skis. (Volkl, Hart, ID One, K2, Dynastar). 

Tough to know as it is pretty difficult to demo large cross section of these skis.  I am close to Wolf Creek and Purgatory in southwestern Colorado and do not know of any ski shops in my area that demo bump skis. 

Marketing seems to have shifted to powder/backcountry skis.

Most of the good bump skis are less than 70 cm under foot.  I would not recommend anything wider than this. 

I think ID One mogul skis are 61-63 cm under foot.  They have solid edge and cracked edge models. Cracked edge is said to be softer.  Have not been on this brand but notice Dale Begg-Smith and other Olympic competitors on these skis. 

I am on dedicated bump ski - Volkl Dragonslayer. It is quick edge to edge but seems fairly stiff.  It definitely improves performance in the bumps, but punishes backseat drivers.  No real basis for comparison to rest of current crop.  In mid-80's I used research dynamics coyote for bumps.  My memory is that coyote was a much softer ski.  Was living and working in Telluride so lots of good bump terrain.  Probably would not recommend this ski to someone who is not fall line bumper or not strong skier.


I weigh 165-170 lbs.  Lower leg strength probably pretty average for mid-40's male.  Boot is Lange Fluid 120.

How stiff a particular ski feels is going to depend on weight, leg strength, and the stiffness of your boot.

  Anyone know of a Colorado area ski shop that demos bump skis?

Would love to try Hart, Dynastar and ID one.
 

post #14 of 21
 Poleplant has got to be bode miller messing with all of us right?
post #15 of 21
Thread Starter 
Well I wanted to thank everyone for all the advice.  I just purchased the Dynastar Twisters in 175.  I also bought the Look PX 12 (2009 model because it has an 80mm brake instead of 90mm, plus it's cheaper) from ebay for $125 shipped.

I'm going to look into boots later this season.  I'm also seriously considering heading out to do Mogul Logic this summer.
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by defens View Post

I'm also seriously considering heading out to do Mogul Logic this summer.

Do it!  You won't be sorry.
post #17 of 21
Not sure you need something mogul specific unless you're really getting to the competition level (or skiing competition level bumps - real steep and real tight).  I do sane steepness/size zippers no problem on Fischer WC SCs - a cheater slalom ski.

What you want is the following:
*Before anything, read DiPiro's book.  If you're not doing it "right", you won't understand how your skis are or are not failing you.

*Around 70 mm underfoot.  Ignore all posts that review skis and say some 100mm ski is great in the bumps.  Fast zippers = close feet.

*Longer turn radius generally better but not absolutely necesary.  In a good zipper your really not turning - the bumps are turning your skis for you and your upper body is absorbing the ride.  We're not all that good/fearless/the lines not always there/knee surgery sucks and you want to make sure your skis aren't too "hooky" as you're not trying to carve.  Any turn radius can be flat swivelled which is what you want to do.

*Avoid insanely unproportional shovels; relates to turn radius as well.  My Metrons go from ~75 underfoot to ~125 at the shovel and they bang like crazy.

*Stiffness can vary but don't go too stiff.
post #18 of 21
 lessons always help..... the indian shouldn't blame the arrow........ dynastarisd a great manufacturer. good luck with your purchase.

poleplant has to be a seminar poster......... i have words to describe his rant; as a gentleman i will keep them private.
 
if you watch any of bushwacker's vids; you'll see he's the real deal. if stowe was closer to me, id be taking lessons and advice from him.

epic is an avenue to learn pure, unadulterated opinions; no ad dollars.   we're all very luck for the advice of the seasoned skier reviews and
collective advice of real skiers.
post #19 of 21
Great thread - was a good lesson for me in what to look for in a bump ski. I've been a lifelong bump skier and have constantly fought gear, mostly b/c I prefer a very very stiff boot. I've owned bump skis in the past and have been considering a dedicated pair. Thankful for the effort folks put into replies on this thread!
post #20 of 21
How important is ski-weight?
post #21 of 21
Weght is in my top 3..
1) Skinny-especially in the tails
2) Straight r greater than 20
3) Light-including lightest binding you can find mounted flat.
4) Flex softer in the tail than shovel.


I expect most other put flex higher
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