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Olympic Gear Question:

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Why are Ski Jumping skis rockered?

Why do Short Track speed skaters wear 20 year old looking cycling helmets???? 

Just wonderin'.
post #2 of 22
They are not.  They have a very slight camber.  Due to the air pressure they bend when in flight.
post #3 of 22
rocker would increase lift in jumping skis (distance, not aerial)

vents kill aerodynamics, but help cooling, so you need to balance them for optimal performance.  A bicycle helmet provides an appropriate amount of protection to start designing from.

On the topic though, I'm curious how the stiffness of the actual skis WC women use compare to the standard FIS race stock the non pro men use.  Many of the best women in the world can't use the men's skis, so one must ask how many non-professionals should be using the men's FIS skis assuming regulations aren't an issue.  Are the true men's WC skis just that extreme?
post #4 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norefjell View Post

They are not.  They have a very slight camber.  Due to the air pressure they bend when in flight.

That's what I thought, then I kept seeing what looked to be 'tip splay' but couldn't get a clear view... finally caught a long look at a Fischer ski... definite tip rocker, I'd say 20mm per ski. I'm not talking in the air, I'm talking still, in someone's hand. 
post #5 of 22
Well, they don't have to carve through anything.  They just go straight (ever notice the 3 grooves on the bases) and fly.  You can telemark a pair of 2"x4"s.
post #6 of 22
a quick google search says they have a slight camber and are extremely flexible, so Norefiella was right.  This makes since because although rocker is better for lift, initially being cambered would improve pressure distribution and stability as seen by the flow and perhaps even flux differential equations for the system.  Thus enabling a more aggressive angle of attack, cm location, etc.
post #7 of 22
If  you are talking alpine FIS skis, there is a difference with the FIS/ World Cup models.  For either M/F, they are designed to do one thing only at one speed range.  They are not expected to have radical changes in carving radius, ski powder, etc. as a recreational racing ski might.  They are a little stiffer since WC skiers with tree trunk thighs can pressure them.  The difference in 8cm for a guy isn't as dramatic IMO as the radius of the ski.

Mancuso is petite and changing to the longer mandated skis created some problems.  For LV?  She is almost as strong as some of the guys.   For the guys, no big deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp5 View Post





On the topic though, I'm curious how the stiffness of the actual skis WC women use compare to the standard FIS race stock the non pro men use.  Many of the best women in the world can't use the men's skis, so one must ask how many non-professionals should be using the men's FIS skis assuming regulations aren't an issue.  Are the true men's WC skis just that extreme?
 
post #8 of 22
but would you say that, for example, head's 165cm FIS race stock SL ski that a good, but not professional guy would be on, is softer than the 155cm SL that the WC women use?  I have a hard time believing the even an excellent FIS skier that's big and strong should be using a stiffer ski than say, Maria Riesch.
post #9 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp5 View Post

a quick google search says they have a slight camber and are extremely flexible, so Norefiella was right.  This makes since because although rocker is better for lift, initially being cambered would improve pressure distribution and stability as seen by the flow and perhaps even flux differential equations for the system.  Thus enabling a more aggressive angle of attack, cm location, etc.
Hi. I can Google too:

539w.jpg
Looks like rocker to me.
post #10 of 22
 Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp5 View Post

but would you say that, for example, head's 165cm FIS race stock SL ski that a good, but not professional guy would be on, is softer than the 155cm SL that the WC women use?  I have a hard time believing the even an excellent FIS skier that's big and strong should be using a stiffer ski than say, Maria Riesch.

I can't say for you, since I have no idea how you ski, how strong you are etc. But I can tell for myself. I normally get skis from certain friend, who is still in WC. This year first I got a pair of men SL skis made for guy who has extra stiff skis (even for WC racer). Sure I could ski with them, but they were not really all that much of fun, so on the end I changed them for skis of another racer (who is actually placed much better in WC then guy I got skis from on first place) for who my friend takes care. These were "normal" WC skis, and they are easy to ski.
So there's not much of problem to ski on skis most of women use. They are quite a bit softer then men skis, so...
But as I said... noone can tell how someone else would do. Maybe they would do fine, maybe not.
post #11 of 22
But if the men's WC skis aren't insane to use, why do the best women in the world struggle to use them?  Would this imply that most people, even top skiers, are on too stiff of skis for them to be as fast as possible?
post #12 of 22
Simply, because women are nowhere near power of men. No matter how this will sound, but most of Europa cup racers (or US equivalent of this) are a lot faster and a lot more powerful then any women on WC. Yes this goes for Lindsey too, if someone will like it or not. 
post #13 of 22
Watching the animals in cross country got me wondering about their equipment, especially for the skate (modern technique) skiers.  Would it be legal to have metal inside edges for skating?  That should give them a lot stronger push.
post #14 of 22
 Nope, steel edges are not legal in xc skis.. not even steel reinforced edges (with p-tex over steel). Nowadays there's really no need for it. Tracks are not really all that icy, and xc skiers don't complain about every little thing :P 
post #15 of 22
Whiteroom.  By rocker definition you are right.  I had a rocker definition equal to a reverse camber in my mind when I responded. 

I believe that the tips now are swept up a little at the tip (rockered as you said) to make the transition from the steeper inrun to the jump takeoff a little more gradual hence reducing some of the friction due to the bend required in the ski to follow the profile.  With the new fixed (artificially frozen) iced inrun track it is not as important to have the ski tracking on its own as it once was.
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp5 View Post

But if the men's WC skis aren't insane to use, why do the best women in the world struggle to use them?  Would this imply that most people, even top skiers, are on too stiff of skis for them to be as fast as possible?
 

The thread title should probably be modified to read "questions," but picking just this topic:

I think the point is well taken. To put it in other words: if Anja Paersson, who's not exactly weak or petite, isn't using men's WC skis, what are "ordinary" racers doing using them? To which my answer would probably be something like: feeding their vanity.

Okay, top male Nor Am competitors (which is the equivalent of Europa Cup, approximately) are one thing, but instead of talking about 180-pound 19-year-olds  with 30 FIS points, let's consider, say, 150-pound 17-year-olds with 100 FIS points, or decent Class 4 Masters racers, or people who occasionally race NASTAR. Should they be pining for men's World Cup race-stock skis?

The pretty obvious answer is no. Indeed, I vaguely recall a piece by Lisa Densmore in Ski Racing in which she said exactly that: even good Masters racers should be using women's race stock skis, or non-race-stock. While equipment choices vary widely, I note that quite a few very successful Masters are on 155 cm slalom skis, or dropping down to race carver or "cheater" GS skis. When Atomic had the more complex color scheme going a few years ago, you saw a lot of good juniors (male ones) on the blue skis, rather than the red.
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post




The thread title should probably be modified to read "questions," but picking just this topic:

I think the point is well taken. To put it in other words: if Anja Paersson, who's not exactly weak or petite, isn't using men's WC skis, what are "ordinary" racers doing using them? To which my answer would probably be something like: feeding their vanity.

Okay, top male Nor Am competitors (which is the equivalent of Europa Cup, approximately) are one thing, but instead of talking about 180-pound 19-year-olds  with 30 FIS points, let's consider, say, 150-pound 17-year-olds with 100 FIS points, or decent Class 4 Masters racers, or people who occasionally race NASTAR. Should they be pining for men's World Cup race-stock skis?

The pretty obvious answer is no. Indeed, I vaguely recall a piece by Lisa Densmore in Ski Racing in which she said exactly that: even good Masters racers should be using women's race stock skis, or non-race-stock. While equipment choices vary widely, I note that quite a few very successful Masters are on 155 cm slalom skis, or dropping down to race carver or "cheater" GS skis. When Atomic had the more complex color scheme going a few years ago, you saw a lot of good juniors (male ones) on the blue skis, rather than the red.


I don't race slalom so I can't comment. But, I ski FIS GS skis and I love them. I race Nastar & Masters races.
 

Now, I'm also 6'2" 260 lbs.

post #18 of 22
Well, yes the 6'2" 260 element does change things a bit.

For one thing, I make it a practice never to disagree with anyone who is 6'2" 260.
post #19 of 22
 My theory on the jumping skis - the rocker reduces surface area on the snow and helps it glide faster. They need all the surface area they can get in the air, but maybe you don't want to drag that much ski across the snow on the inrun.
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post

Well, yes the 6'2" 260 element does change things a bit.

For one thing, I make it a practice never to disagree with anyone who is 6'2" 260.

It does change things bit. I think the only ski that I can't out muscle is the Stockli Scott Schmidt. That is one stiff ski and it only likes one speed.

Most people buy skis because they are popular or they saw a guy win a gold medal on it. Too soft, too stiff, too wide, too long, or any other factors that matter never comes into play. Same with boots and clothes.

That is why rental equipment is always front side carvers that are too short and boots that are too big.

I always get a kick out of the guy with top $ ski clothes and rental skis and boots. He doesn't even know enough to demo something a little better.

As for disagreeing with me, I more of a Lab than a Rottweiler!

Johnny
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 My theory on the jumping skis - the rocker reduces surface area on the snow and helps it glide faster.

Believe it or not, more surface on snow makes glide easier and faster. But then again, nowadays inruns on ski jumping hills are not snow anymore, but pure ice, so your theory might be actually true.
post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post


Believe it or not, more surface on snow makes glide easier and faster. But then again, nowadays inruns on ski jumping hills are not snow anymore, but pure ice, so your theory might be actually true.

I know that's true, but I figure there might be a point of diminishing returns and we are talking about 90 lb guys on ginormous skis. Anyway, it's only a theory backed up by nothing but conjecture.
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