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Boots/bindings for Karhu 10th Mountain backcountry skis?

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I just purchased a new pair of Karhu 10th Mountain Backcountry skis...got a good deal on sale.  I have one of the original versions of this ski, about 12 years old, a bit beat up, that I used for hut trips in CO.  I had NNN backcountry bindings on them and used Alpina backcountry boots.  A comfortable setup, but sometimes I wished I had more control on descents.  There isn't quite the ankle support I'd like for tele turns.

I was going to mount them with NNN Magnum bindings and use my original boot which is still good.  I'm wondering if it would be worth it to get Garmont Excursion boots and 3-pin bindings instead.  I've never used a plastic backcountry boot; I'm not a tele skiier on the slopes.  However, I'm wondering if the extra control would be worth it, and these new Karhus are signficantly wider than my old 10th Mountains....I think 68mm compared to 56mm. 

Is this worth the extra money? (a lot of extra money for those boots).  I'd have to wait till next season because I can't find the Excursion in a 27 women's.  I also have a very narrow heel, so I'm wondering about fit issues with the boots as well. 
post #2 of 22
Which Alpina?  

If you're in something remotely equivalent to the 1550, stepping up to a 2150 could easily give you all the control you want and still keep the long kick.

IMO, if  you were in Alpina and had no heel problems -> I wouldn't really fret about Garmont heel width, but I'd be very careful in picking size (read: not without trying the boot). 

Also IMO, it is not worth going to an all-plastic 75mm boot without a cable heel.    (I don't think something like a Voile HD Mountaineer will even fit an Excursion lug, which leaves you with very few options, Rottefella Super Telemark and ?????)
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
OK.  I have Alpina 1550 women's boots......there's a 1650 out there but doesn't look all that different from the 1550.  The 2150 looks great but doesn't come in a women's last, which I really need.  I think I'll use the NNN setup on these skis and maybe hope for a more supportive compatible women's boot to come out in the next year or two.
post #4 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twintip View Post

OK.  I have Alpina 1550 women's boots......there's a 1650 out there but doesn't look all that different from the 1550.  The 2150 looks great but doesn't come in a women's last, which I really need.

If you stay with NNN BC, you might keep an eye out for someplace that carries mens'  Fischer BCX 8 or a Rossi X9 to try.    I
post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 
I've seen these....but none in my size left this year.  They look like great boots, so I'll keep an eye out.
post #6 of 22

I just picked up some Excursions and Voile 3-pin cables for a pair of Fischer Rebounds I have, but I haven't tried them yet.  I won't be using the cables on this setup, I just wanted options for future uses of these bindings. 

I upgraded to these boots and bindings from NNN-BC Alpina BC2500's (leather w/ plastic cuff), because I wanted more turning control.  I researched this quite a bit before I decided.  The prevailing opinion is that cables are useful with flexy leather boots, but provide no advantage for plastic boots (unless maybe you're going full bore tele). 

Also, the Voile Mountaineer is a highly recommended binding for the Excursions.  I've used my Excursions on a lighter pair of Voile 3-pin bindings, and although they were a tight fit, they worked fine. 

I'm using the Rebounds because that's what I've got.  My next skis will hopefully be 10th Mts., with the Voile 3-pins and my Excursions.  Word is it's a dream setup. 

post #7 of 22

I also had essentially the same question about setup although with a somewhat different twist. I am a downhill skier (40+ days a winter). I live in the east and last year with all of the snow I actually was often unable to get to ski because of the 100 mile drive in 20 inches of snow. I also enjoyed the Olympic XC event on TV. So I am looking for an XC setup to use primarily around my home and nearby parks, it is a hilly area. I would be breaking trails, and because of the hills, might want a ski with an edge. I was considering some type of touring set up but would appreciate advice from someone who might actually have some practical knowledge. A secondary use would be to go to a center and try trails so I would not want to get too wide.

post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post

I also had essentially the same question about setup although with a somewhat different twist. I am a downhill skier (40+ days a winter). I live in the east and last year with all of the snow I actually was often unable to get to ski because of the 100 mile drive in 20 inches of snow. I also enjoyed the Olympic XC event on TV. So I am looking for an XC setup to use primarily around my home and nearby parks, it is a hilly area. I would be breaking trails, and because of the hills, might want a ski with an edge. I was considering some type of touring set up but would appreciate advice from someone who might actually have some practical knowledge. A secondary use would be to go to a center and try trails so I would not want to get too wide.


Find a nice pair of  supportive boots, ankle high or taller.     That will tell you which binding you can use.        Ski choice is made easy after that.

 

This is what I use for /EXACTLY/ the same conditions as you describe:

 

 

EDIT: the Tuas fit into touring center tracks, the Rainiers do not; a similar model (the Selkirk) would.   



Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post



On the left: Alpina TeleLite.    This is my travel + XC downhill boot.    This is much burlier than the Alpina you link to.


On the right : Rossi X9     This is directly comparable to the Alpina you link to in terms of feel, a little narrower in the toebox, and a little stiffer above the ankle than the Alpina you link to.      This is a climbing and travel boot.    It can handle some downhill, it can even handle a cable binding, but it will feel severely undercontrolled on such terrain to an alpine skier.

The Atomic alpine boots are to provide scale.




Each boot clicked into the binding it goes with.    On top: Rivas.   Notice the cable around the heel.

On bottom:  Rottefella SuperTelemark with 10mm lift.      10 mm lift is really nice to have for short boot XCD setups, more than that and it can get squirrely imo.    



On the top:   Atomic Rainier, directly comparable in category to the the Alpina Lite Terrain you link to, slightly stiffer, slightly better glide under a heavy skier, less climbing ability and less 'edged-turning' ability than the Lite Terrain (but also less hooky in random snow).   Comparable skis: Karhu 10th Mtn.

On the bottom:   Tua EscapeS, just as fat as the Atomic but NO sidecut.     Absolutely awesome climber,  extremely good glide in random broken snow with no hooking.      Turning does require patience, edging (and the occasional kick turn on a hairpin turn) but the improved glide and the difference in spanning and averaging out random broken snow is just TOTALLY worth it.




 
post #9 of 22

How's the fit on the Alpina TeleLite? I have narrow feet, Megaride's and Flexon's fit me well. I just got some Fischer Outabounds and mounted Voile 3 pin with cables so boots are next on the list.

post #10 of 22

The Alpinas are ginormous, with huge instep and general interior volume, though the toes can feel short.   

 

 Rossi or Fischer BCX  or Garmont  might be better for you.    

 

On the "leather" boots, don't rely on US sizing (it's WAY inaccurate) and don't rely on MP sizing (it's meaningless).     Use the European shoe sizing (e.g. 41-42-43) for comparison between brands.

 

If you go to a light plastic boot like an Excursion or something, then Mondopoint comes into its own.

 

 

EDIT: do _not_ use a conversion table US-> Euro, go out and find your Euro size directly!

post #11 of 22

Hi guys,

 

I was looking for a thread that was asking similar questions to what I wanted to ask. I currently hire my ski gear but I'd like to purchase. In Australia we don't have a huge variety of choice. I go out back country for upto 6 days at a time off trail, ski to a place, camp the night ski to the next place etc. Typically I'll carry a pack of about 30 to 35kg. I was thinking of getting some 10th Mountain, potentially hammerheads and definitely Garmont Excursions. I'd like to understand if this is a good combo, or will I rip the binding out of the ski etc. Are there other combos that I could look at.

 

Your help is appreciated. Thanks

 

udev02

post #12 of 22

Since you asked about three-pin,,,My personal opinion is that NNN BC is more sloppy than the solid anchor of a three-pin binding.  So, trying to make the boot compensate for the slop in the NNN binding is counter-productive.

 

For REAL BC adventure, I still say that talent and technique trumps gear.  Get some good, well made solid leather boots and learn how to ski well.  Let's face it, unless you are getting a ride into the BC, you spend more time getting there and back ... and climbing than you do sliding down the vertical.  A good pair of leather boots will get you into the back-country, allow you to cut some nice turns, and get you out again.

post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tduro View Post

I just picked up some Excursions and Voile 3-pin cables for a pair of Fischer Rebounds I have, but I haven't tried them yet.  I won't be using the cables on this setup, I just wanted options for future uses of these bindings. 

I upgraded to these boots and bindings from NNN-BC Alpina BC2500's (leather w/ plastic cuff), because I wanted more turning control.  I researched this quite a bit before I decided.  The prevailing opinion is that cables are useful with flexy leather boots, but provide no advantage for plastic boots (unless maybe you're going full bore tele). 

Also, the Voile Mountaineer is a highly recommended binding for the Excursions.  I've used my Excursions on a lighter pair of Voile 3-pin bindings, and although they were a tight fit, they worked fine. 

I'm using the Rebounds because that's what I've got.  My next skis will hopefully be 10th Mts., with the Voile 3-pins and my Excursions.  Word is it's a dream setup. 


My experience has been that cable bindings are hard on the boots.  The cable mounting hardware tends to abrade or slice the sides of the opposite boots as you kick/glide and cut turns. 

 

My preference is a boot with a solid Vibram sole and a stiff three-pin binding. 

 

In addition to performance shortcomings, NNN BC and cable bindings can fail in ways that are nearly impossible to fix when you are in the back-country.  Three-pins are less prone to failure, icing, and other complications.

post #14 of 22
hi there, I hope I can piggyback onto this thread. I'm an intermediate groomed alpine skier, and getting tired of paying for resorts. Even our local Nordic center has gotten spendy lately. Between a combo of clearance sales and gift cards, I got a sick deal on a brand new set of Madshus Epoch MGV Omnis, Alpina NNN BC 50 women's boots, and Rottefella NNN BC auto bindings. I'm about to take my first tentative free-heeled steps into a wider world.

Incidentally, I will second whomever upthread said that the Alpina boots run huge. I typically wear a women's 8 WIDE and am in a 6.5 in the Alpinas and am plenty comfortable.

Anyway my question is more one of reassurance that I didn't do something utterly stupid and noob-like by mounting NNN BC bindings instead of 3-pin. My fiance has 3-pin cables on his older touring setup and doesn't like them; says it's heavy and slow, and encouraged me to go with the NNN BC setup instead for lightweight and flexibility. Maybe keep in mind I couldn't execute a tele turn if my life depended on it, and I doubt we'll ever ski anything resembling steeps.

Our goal is to pretty much go ski flattish trails, fire roads and maybe do some light bushwhacking. Skate ski setups are stupidly expensive around here, and even though I'm a bike racer in the summer months, I think I lack the true masochism necessary to master skate skis anyhow. If we like these skis, we may try an easy hut trip at some point, but who knows.

The whole reason I bought the wider skis was because I anticipate that we'll have kind of random snow / no tracks wherever we end up, but beyond that I'm pretty much flying blind. Thoughts? Am I barking mad?
post #15 of 22

Hi,

 

Recently a group of my skiing friends and myself went through the same quandry. I have hired by XC gear and last lot I hired was 10th Mountain, Garmot Excursions and I think a Chilli cable binding seup. This stuff worked like a dream and I had total ski control.

 

I decided that the Madshus Epochs and the Garmots were the way to go - bindings however were difficult. There are way to may systems and choices and opinions out there so it made it very difficult. For the touring style that we do, multi day back country, heavy pack carrying and being remote we eventually opted for Voile CRB 3 pin hardwires. The reason for the choice was we got a 3 pin, so if the cable broke when we were out there and our spares didn't fix it we could still ski. The cables for the additional control when we were doing down. The release for our knees, as we arrived at the conclusion that with all that extra support, stiffness in boot and a much larger ski that any twisting forces would be tranfered up our legs. The effectivenessof the release remains to be seen as there are many views and opinions out there.  

 

Ulysses

post #16 of 22

Does anyone know if the Alpina TeleLite boots mentioned/pictured in post #8 are compatible with 3-pin bindings, i.e., do they have the pin holes in the soles and is the duckbill depth an issue?

 

Looking at something and wondering if the TeleLites would work with Voile Hardwire 3-pin bindings. Thx.

post #17 of 22

Yep. Just by looking.

post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

Does anyone know if the Alpina TeleLite boots mentioned/pictured in post #8 are compatible with 3-pin bindings, i.e., do they have the pin holes in the soles and is the duckbill depth an issue?

 

Looking at something and wondering if the TeleLites would work with Voile Hardwire 3-pin bindings. Thx.

 

1) Yes they have pin holes
2) Yes it is an issue, they require 20mm+ depth, they will fit old Dovres but not all old Voiles.

3) You should be able to find Scarpa T4s or similar that are approximately that heavy and full plastic (read: no softening and better control and no sole delamination)
4) Absolutely they will fit, but so will the T4s

post #19 of 22

I came across some new-in-box TeleLites for a pretty good price, so pulled the trigger and am going to check those out and see how it goes. Just interested in something slightly beefier than my NNN-BC setup so I can continue to explore mildly rolling forest terrain and develop the feel and balance for making downhill turns. A little more control should be a good thing, and, who knows? Might even get me into a new skiing style - time will tele. Maybe.   ;-)

 

Appreciate the feedback!

post #20 of 22

OK, have fun.    That boot can definitely do slarvy turns on low-grade (highway ramp  steepness frex) terrain.   

 


Do keep an eye on the welt  particularly at the toe lug - Alpinas of that vintage have a disturbing tendency to delaminate.

Also, I will not be surprised if I hear you're being fussy about lifters.    Plasti booters are mostly fussy about toe ramp to tweak the binding preload.

 Telelites are not as fussy about toe ramp but they  have another concern - the knob keeping the cuff from going backwards (i.e. the knob that allows you to pull yourself back on top of your skis if they run out in front of you on a downhill)  is pretty small and the cuff can jump it if the cuff material is flexed in the right way.       Adding heel lift is not a great fix for this but it's the most practicable and plain easiest treatment (kinda like cough meds for colds really).  Hey, at least there's very little chance of phantom foot type knee injuries - the cuff jumps the knob long before that can happen. 

post #21 of 22

Thanks for the additional info. I'm sure it will make more sense once I have the boots and am able to get out on some snow.

 

Not long now, hopefully!   ;-)

 

Cheers.

post #22 of 22

Remind me to take snaps of my NNN-BC setup.

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