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Mogul Technique Survey - Page 3

Poll Results: Do you want to look and ski like the World Cuppers? Or like Nail?

 
  • 64% (18)
    WC
  • 35% (10)
    Nail
28 Total Votes  
post #61 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

I am willing to bet those two clips of Deneen were taken at Mt Hood, a far cry from a WC bump course. 


That's a bet you would win, youtube below. IIRC, that vid came out in the summer after the season he got sponsorship from hart. they did a full court press on the H17. Would not surprise me he was carving more than extra just to showcase the ski

post #62 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Clearly, both Patrick Deneen and Dale Begg-Smith ski fast, and ski well, and both ski the fall-line/zipperline. Yet they show markedly different techniques and tactics in these clips. Deneen's skis clearly go the direction they're pointing much more than Begg-Smith's skis, which pivot and skid sideways most of the time (albeit "controlling speed with efficient use of edging....").


IMO, it is equally misleading to compare skiers from different courses, even the course can change from year to year due to bump formation, how it got skied in, snow and weather conditions.
 
Inawashiro looks to have a very steep upper section. In the 2010 course, the bump formation seemed spread out and rutted in a certain fashion. Lots of skiers had to slide or skid the tail across to steer or slow down to approach the next bump in the way they wanted to, at the right speed and still stay in the line. Even Aiko, Nail’s favorite high line skier did this in her runs.  
 
k, enuf banter…Here’s Deneen at Inawashiro and Deer Valley at 2009. Bump formation and shape are different but both courses have steep sections before the first jump.  Imo, he’s sliding those tails across so that he can follow the shape of the mogul and still keep in the line.





Still don’t see what the big deal is, racers skid or steer to approach gate a certain way and hit the line they want.  Even very good skiers do this in those narrow twisty trails we have in NE.
post #63 of 141
 Well, as the person who shot and edited the video in the short YouTube clip of Patrick Deneen above (post #61), and also created the .gif animations in my post and captioned them, "Patrick Deneen, testing the new Hart F17 World Cup mogul ski at Mt. Hood," I can say with reasonable certainty that joemammoth's "bet" that it's at Mt. Hood is pretty safe.

However, I can also assure you that Patrick was not, in any way, "carving more than extra just to showcase the ski." That is how Patrick Deneen skis, which is to say, quite differently from many of his competitors. He knows it. His dad and other coaches know it. And they all recognize that it is a particular strength. It is what allows Patrick to handle higher speeds than anyone else currently competing on the World Cup.

Unfortunately for Patrick (in my opinion), it is an enviable but risky strength to have. Because top speed is his forte, Patrick needs to push the speed envelope to its limit, all the time. It's a very fine line between pushing and exceeding that line, as his unfortunate crash in the Olympics emphasized. Competitors whose personal strength is aerials, on the other hand, can afford to be more conservative with speed, losing a few points there but making it up with even stronger airs. I had predicted that Patrick would either win Gold in the Olympics, or crash trying. Unfortunately, I was right!

Competitive bumps is a risky, hit-or-miss business anyway. Personally, like a few others here, I'm not a big fan of the FIS rules either. I've always marveled at how competitors could get scored on "turns," while losing points for direction changes--an oxymoron if there ever was one! A few other points in the rules seem arbitrary and unrelated to good ski technique in general--such as the requirement for knees to remain pressed together. These things are easily observable, making the judges' jobs easier, but do little to promote technically strong and versatile skiing. I believe that, if the competition venues used "real" natural bumps, with natural variation in size, shape, and tempo, and if they actually allowed direction changes--perhaps even requiring a few with gates or something--then skiers with Patrick Deneen's technical background would excel even more than they do now, and some of their current close competitors would fall by the wayside. Much of what Patrick is capable of doing is lost in today's mogul courses. He's overqualified!

Incidentally, there is some discussion behind the scenes as to whether the highly specialized Hart F17 World Cup mogul ski might not have been the ideal design for the soft snow conditions in Vancouver--and that perhaps a somewhat more conventional and all-around design like the F17 "Classic" that Bryon Wilson chose for his medal-winning performance might have been better suited. The jury is out on that, but for competitive bump skiers, it is a question worth pondering. (Better get a pair of each!)

Best regards,
Bob
post #64 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

 Wow...most of me is saying, "stay out of this conversation," but I'm going to jump in anyway.
 
There are certainly many different ways--techniques and tactics--to ski moguls. The first point I want to make is that it's somewhat misleading to describe only one of them as "technical," and even moreso to describe something as "the technical line" (since line refers to tactics, not technique, and any line demands technique). I suspect, Nailbender, that your choice of the words "technical line" to single out one technique and tactic above others is what grates on a few people here. 
 
That said, I agree 100% with the  gist of Nailbender's arguments. The main difference in techniques (both in and out of bumps) can be described simply as 1) skis go the direction they're pointed, with speed control coming from line ("turn shape") or 2) skis pivot and skid sideways, controlling speed directly through skidding or impacting the bumps. "1" describes speed control from tactics; "2" describes speed control from technique. "1" describes using technique to control line (direction), "2" describes using technique to control speed. "1" is the essence of what I've long described as "skiing the slow line fast," while "2" defines skiing the "fast line slow." Both are techniques, but one ("1") is offensive (control line), while the other ("2") is defensive (control speed). (And that is true regardless of the actual speed a skier chooses to carry--there are only two ways to control speed, "slow line fast" and "fast line slow," or "direction" [1] and "friction" [2]. You can ski as fast--or as slowly--as you want with either option. Offensive vs. Defensive is not at all the same as aggressive vs. timid!)
 
And the so-called "zipperline" can be skied either way--as various World Cup mogul skiers demonstrate. I agree entirely with Nailbender that Dale Begg-Smith is a shining example of #2--the pivot/skid technique, clearly seen in the slow-motion clip Nailbender linked to in post #39 of this thread. Yes, I am aware that the FIS rules require "carving turns," but to define carving as "efficient use of edging to control speed" is a bit creative, to say the least (and it's a stretch as well to describe straight fall-line skiing as "turning" in the first place). By contrast, I offer here a couple clips that I've posted before, of the pretty-much-undisputed fastest mogul skier in the world--reigning World Champion Patrick Deneen, training at Mt. Hood: 
 
PDeneen at Hood 08b.gif         PD at Hood 08a.gif 
World Champion Patrick Deneen, testing the new Hart F17 World Cup mogul ski at Mt. Hood.

Clearly, both Patrick Deneen and Dale Begg-Smith ski fast, and ski well, and both ski the fall-line/zipperline. Yet they show markedly different techniques and tactics in these clips. Deneen's skis clearly go the direction they're pointing much more than Begg-Smith's skis, which pivot and skid sideways most of the time (albeit "controlling speed with efficient use of edging...."). Look in particular at the second clip, which shows a rare glimpse of Deneen skiing slowly as he warms up for a day of training. Here, he demonstrates a much more rounded line, while still keeping his skis going the direction they're pointed--a great demonstration of "slow line fast," rather than braking. It's beautiful skiing, in my opinion!
 
It is worth noting that even the fastest and most habitually offensive skiers (ie. Deneen) will revert to defensive technique (pivoting and braking) when necessary--or when speed gets truly out of hand. All offensive skiers know how to brake, even if they prefer not to unless necessary. But--and here's the crux, and where I agree again with Nailbender--not all defensive skiers can ski offensively. Offensive skiing (feet going the direction they're pointing as much and as often as possible), I have long maintained, is the signature of technically excellent skiers in all disciplines and conditions, everywhere. It is far more technically demanding even as--at least at "human" speeds--it is less athletically demanding, less fatiguing, and less pounding on the body.

It's also worth noting that Patrick Deneen himself acknowledges the difference, and works very hard to ski moguls with a markedly different technique and tactics than that of many of his competitors--a technique built heavily upon his early development as an alpine racer. And it's why he is the fastest in the world. It is this "edging controls direction/line" technical racing background that, in many ways, justifies Nailbender's description of the "technical line" to differentiate Deneen's (and a few others') skiing from the more skidded "edging controls speed" technique of most top bump competitors. It also allows Deneen to moderate his speed as needed with subtle adjustments of line (at least, the line his feet travel--even as his body remains directly on the fall line).

In a dramatic demonstration of the difference, I recall hearing another bump coach advising an athlete who repeatedly let speed get out of hand to "dump some speed with a hard edge check"--advice that made Patrick and his father/coach just roll their eyes and grin. Really, that's about all you can do with a pivot/check technique. It yields far fewer options than the offensive "gliding" technique of Deneen and others.

And the difference becomes even more pronounced in non-competitive skiing in "natural" bump terrain. By definition, the offensive gliding "technical" technique is about controlling line with technique, allowing the skier to use line and tactics to control speed, rather than braking. By definition, this strategy gives considerably more control of line, giving skiers the ability NOT to stay in the fall line/zipperline if they choose--to vary turn shape and size and ski any line, anywhere, any time. It's not a big deal in the very regular zipperline of a competition course, where the bumps are literally laid out with a tape measure, and where veering off the fall line will lose the competition. But it's a huge asset in "regular" skiing, where great bump skiers are free to express themselves with any line they choose, where the zipperline is only a choice, not a requirement.

To put a blunter point on it, skiers who develop only the pivot/skid/brake bump technique are nearly locked in the fall line--since their technique is really, by definition, intended to control speed, not direction. They are the ones who tend to get upset when someone gets "in their line"--because, unlike "technical" skiers, they have only limited ability to choose a different line.

Well, I'm heading up to Arapahoe Basin now. Argue away. Nailbender--keep up the good fight!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Well there you have it. The great BB has spoken.

Have we seen a clip of bob skiing moguls?
post #65 of 141
Quote:
Still don’t see what the big deal is, racers skid or steer to approach gate a certain way and hit the line they want.  Even very good skiers do this in those narrow twisty trails we have in NE. 

Absolutely, Jack--I agree. Twisting, pivoting, skidding, and braking are all critically important skills in the complete skier's repertoire, and even the most offensively-inclined athletes will brake when necessary. But it is not their default movement pattern. Braking is a vital skill, but it is also a bad habit. I submit again that great offensive skiers invariably know how to brake, but that habitual brakers rarely know how to turn!

To expand on what I wrote a couple posts ago, and to repeat again what I have said here at EpicSki for years, the defining signature of great skiing is "skiing a slow enough line as fast as you can, when you can...and braking when you have to." I maintain that the greatest skiers, as well as beginners and intermediates who are on the road to greatness--in all disciplines from alpine racing to powder to "big mountain" and moguls--all share this one trait. They glide when they can, and brake when they have to. They control speed (as much or as little as desired) first with tactics (line) and only second with technique (braking). Their turns have one purpose--control direction--as they turn to "go that way," rather than to "stop going this way." On the other hand, most skiers who "turn to control speed" become habitual brakers, sacrificing a good deal of directional precision and control in favor of skidding and scrubbing off speed. 

Moguls, perhaps more than any other condition, lend themselves very well to either strategy. With the natural unweighting that bumps provide, it's exceedingly easy to pivot the skis around and, unlike ice for example, it's a sure bet that they'll stop skidding as soon as they skid sideways into the next bump. So defensive "pivot-skid-whack" is a reliable, if unsophisticated, way to ski bumps. It's easy to learn and effective, especially if your goal is to cling tightly to the fall line (meaning, you don't want or need to change direction). 

But because moguls are also little individual hills that you can glide up, they facilitate "skiing the slow line fast" with offensive speed control ("direction, not friction") just as well. But you have to know how to make a real turn--a real direction change, using the skis to help shape the turn with minimal skidding. Powerful, efficient, precise offensive turns--a largely forgotten art these days, it seems--require highly disciplined technique. The movements--or at least, the offensive intent that dictates these movements--is not intuitive to most skiers who seem to think only of controlling speed with their "turns" (yes, I use the term loosely here). 

In general, offensive skiing (turning for direction control while controlling speed with tactics) is more technically demanding, while defensive skiing ("turning" directly for speed control--better called "braking"--while sacrificing some directional control as a result) is more athletically demanding--especially in bumps. At the highest levels--ie. World Cup competition--either can be equally impressive, as athletes push the limits of both their technical prowess and their considerable athleticism to the max. The straight fall-line world of competitive bump skiing, with little speed control and no direction changes required, favors neither strategy over the other. You can ski the "zipperline" either way and, unlike alpine racing, we see mogul athletes excel from both ends of the spectrum. That's unfortunate, in my opinion, but it's what it is (currently...). 

Best regards,
Bob
post #66 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

However, I can also assure you that Patrick was not, in any way, "carving more than extra just to showcase the ski." That is how Patrick Deneen skis, which is to say, quite differently than many of his competitors. He knows it. His dad and other coaches know it. And they all recognize that it is a particular strength. It is what allows Patrick to handle higher speeds than anyone else currently competing on the World Cup.

 

So Deneen actually skis that way in a training course.... and it wasn't for show?

That explains alot.
post #67 of 141
The size and shape of todays bumps skis do have an impact on the type of turn made in a course.  The largest skis most guys are skiing on is 175 max. They use these, for the most part, because they are easier for the greater amount of rotation being thrown off the kickers these days.  Much easier to go three revolutions with a 170 than a 200. This shorter skis has, unfortunately, led to a change in technique, combined with the man made courses.  You can argue about the man made bumps being worse and so on, but they evolved as the skiers began going faster, more direct and hucking bigger. 
post #68 of 141

Yup, that is Deneens everyday style. I think the amount of time he spends on Palmer has contributed to it.

post #69 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Yup, that is Deneens everyday style. I think the amount of time he spends on Palmer has contributed to it.


This explains why you say Palmer can make you flatfooted.
post #70 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Yup, that is Deneens everyday style. I think the amount of time he spends on Palmer has contributed to it.


Certainly, Joe. Along with the time he spends at Blackcomb, in South America, and Down Under in the northern hemisphere summer, as well as the time he's spent year-round in gates and practicing technical drills out of the bumps. No, he is not alone in this kind of determination, dedication, and hard work, but his focus (and that of his coaches) on the technical side of skiing and turning is somewhat rare among mogul skiers. I believe that Patrick Deneen will lead the evolution, if not a revolution, in competitive mogul skiing in the next few years. He's still young and I don't think we've seen the best of him yet. Time will tell. Personally, I'd love to see it!

Best regards,
Bob
post #71 of 141

Yup, alot of time is spent by  all high level mogul compettitors on all kinds of terrain,  And most of the people I know spend just as much time training the technical aspects of skiing as Pat and his coaches.  What I was referring to was the pitch and shape of the bumps at Hood may have helped him with his technique.

 Hood is so flat that you are always trying to create more speed there.Speed is organic and grows out of improving technique.  Also the bumps tend to get walled up and slow, so you try to keep a high line, so as not to get stuck in the ruts.Also you try to ski a very direct "narrow" line, while staying high, your tips do not deviate much from the fall line at Hood. Skiing there for a long period of time over a few seasons, this could have helped him refine his style.

post #72 of 141
Quote:
BobBarnes wrote:

Personally, like a few others here, I'm not a big fan of the FIS rules either. I've always marveled at how competitors could get scored on "turns," while losing points for direction changes--an oxymoron if there ever was one! A few other points in the rules seem arbitrary and unrelated to good ski technique in general--such as the requirement for knees to remain pressed together. These things are easily observable, making the judges' jobs easier, but do little to promote technically strong and versatile skiing.

I agree completely,  as I've stated many times, WC judging/rules do not rewarded sound technical carving skills, it is a bobble counting contest combined with "form" scoring, not turn scoring and supports what I consider an intermediate turning technique -- the pivot turn. It seems most mogul skiers/judges are obsessed with body position/looks and could care less about how the skis are being used, the arc/roundness of the turn and shovel edging turn initiation or if cross under ever occurs.

The infatuation with the "stacked" position with shoulder/hip/feet in vertical alignment with knees/feet very tight results in a lack of mobility and angulation, it is prohibitive to technically sound carving turn movements/mechanics.  IMO, the more angulation the better, with the feet getting out laterally from the skier which is necessary in making "round" carved/brushed turns.  While a calm centered upper body is very important to successfully navigate a mogul field, including man made courses, it should be judged secondary to the technical proficiency level of the turns the skier is actually making which should be the primary consideration.  Pivot turns should score no higher than 2.3, never in the 4's no matter how steady the skiers head is.


Just because skiers are competing in moguls, technical turning skills/mechanics should not be disregarded.
post #73 of 141
They aren't
post #74 of 141
Skis are made to carve a turn by loading it into reverse camber........... Then use the rebound created in the previous turn to go in the other direction. Using the float phase of the turn. {This IMO is not mentioned much when talking turning}. They are a tool like a hammer or a saw. Yes you can make a hole with a hammer but it will be a rough 1 not a technical hole were something will fit into perfectly.

To me this is why a skier should be what everyone wants to be not just a bumper.

As said ski all over the mogul and mountain. Ski the only line the fall line and become more that a bumper. Being a skier is the ultimate goal.
post #75 of 141
I prefer to ski all over the bump rather than just the zipper line. And cvj I'd like to hear more about the float phase of the turn.
post #76 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post




Well there you have it. The great BB has spoken.

Have we seen a clip of bob skiing moguls?
No offense, but I don't recall seeing anything from you recently either.

Just for kicks, I'm at about 1:27 on this video of us skiing an easy bump run at BK,, think it was Deer Run?  Not requesting MA, but just sayin' if you're gonna diss someone for not posting video be prepared to post one yourself.



Many of you folks take this way too seriously.  Just have some fun and try not to get hurt.  If you're actually competing then you probably don't have time to be bickering over this stuff with us wannabees.

That said, I agree with a lot that has been said here from all, but let's try to keep it objective and not personal.

One last thing, I would bet that Deneen and DBS ski bumps (and everything else) better than 99.99999% of the folks on this forum.  Although, I have heard a rumor that Mosely lurks here from time to time.

It's cool to have solid skills and experience required to handle bumps well and share that with others  It's not cool to pretend you are the utmost authority on it because that doesn't exist.
Edited by crgildart - 4/2/10 at 11:06am
post #77 of 141
Alright, I've posted lots of video elsewhere, but I'll throw a clip up here, just so y'all know where I'm coming from.  I don't ski "WC" style or "SVMM" style or "Nails" style or anyone else's style for that matter.  I use the BMMMM (BushMogulMasterMogulMethod), and I like it!  I'm not interested in molding my technique to any set standard.  I'm always glad to listen to advice, different ideas, etc.  But in the end, my goal is to synthesize my very own technique... that which works best for my own skiing goals and enjoyment, rather than someone's perception of what's best or most "technical."

So here ya have it:

post #78 of 141

The best way to learn how to ski bumps is to learn how to ski.  There is, in my opinion, no magic method of skiing bumps. You ski point A to point B and deal with what gets in your way. Ski some high, ski some low, ski some in the middle, go straight over some if you have to.If you are going to do this you have to know how to use the ski as a tool. You all have your own way of doing it. You have to because we all do not have the same physiology, muscle mass or reflexes.  A good coach sees what his athletes have and trains them to their strengths. But the basic ingredients of pressure , angulation and balance are the same.
 Then when an athlete has a good understanding of how a ski works, what it does under certain conditions and pressures, you start to add in tactics, line selection being one of those tactics. You are always skiing the fall line, however you may attack the fall line in diffferent ways. Sometimes the tops work, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the rutline works, other times not so much. What you want to do as a coach is get the athletes to have a grasp of everything that goes into skiing and bump skiing in particular(as a moguls coach).  
 Until you have gone and spent significant amounts of time with some mogul programs, (day in, day out, on the flats, the courses, all over the mountain), and its coaches, don't dis on them or the sport as it is. 

post #79 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post



No offense, but I don't recall seeing anything from you recently either.

Just for kicks, I'm at about 1:27 on this video of us skiing an easy bump run at BK,, think it was Deer Run?  Not requesting MA, but just sayin' if you're gonna diss someone for not posting video be prepared to post one yourself.



Many of you folks take this way too seriously.  Just have some fun and try not to get hurt.  If you're actually competing then you probably don't have time to be bickering over this stuff with us wannabees.

That said, I agree with a lot that has been said here from all, but let's try to keep it objective and not personal.

One last thing, I would bet that Deneen and DBS ski bumps (and everything else) better than 99.99999% of the folks on this forum.  Although, I have heard a rumor that Mosely lurks here from time to time.

It's cool to have solid skills and experience required to handle bumps well and share that with others  It's not cool to pretend you are the utmost authority on it because that doesn't exist.



 

No pretending from me, really. If I had video of myself skiing moguls, i'd post it up. Sorry. A few of the guys who hang here have skied with me. If they want to say i suck, I can live with that.

The quip about bob comes from a video of him skiing moguls that was put up a few years ago and got lambasted by the Harb people. Inside joke if you don't remember.

I'm sure bob skis moguls as most instructors do, the technical line which is why he is siding with Nail.

Nail skis bumps ok his way which is fine by me. To each his own. Those guys bashing others who prefer to ski zipperline pisses me off.

I'm betting cvj is most likely the best mogul skier posting and posing here as I think he's Joey Cordeau himself. (initials backwards JVC) Skied with him many years ago. I remember that but i'm quite sure he wouldn't remember me.

Moguls are all about having fun anyhow. I've stated that before. I admire anybody who revels in them as much as I do.

That all said, it was 81 degrees here and I got in 18 wonderful holes of golf.

Bump on everyone.
post #80 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

That all said, it was 81 degrees here and I got in 18 wonderful holes of golf.

Bump on everyone.
Excellent.  I guess that means your neck and back are feeling better.  Good to hear
post #81 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post



The infatuation with the "stacked" position with shoulder/hip/feet in vertical alignment with knees/feet very tight results in a lack of mobility and angulation, it is prohibitive to technically sound carving turn movements/mechanics. 
 


Everyone knows to stay out of the backseat, but skiing stacked also keeps you out of the passenger seat.
post #82 of 141
The mechanics of a executing quick carved turns require the feet to follow the ski tips along the arc of the turn, this is seen when the the skiers feet move laterally back and forth across the fall line, out away from the body then crossing back under the body.  This is the same for skiers carving turns in natural terrain.  The more fluid angulation the skier generates when fall line skiing will result in a rounder turn.  It is very important to maintain new shovel edge pressure after release, during the float stage, while retracting the feet back under the body while the feet are simultaneously moving laterally away from the body. 

Mogul skiers, whether using deflected carved turns down the zipperline or making brushed carved turns down the technical line will exhibit a pendulum movement as their feet follow their skis in contrast to skiers in the confining stacked position.

My boy, who is 9, has been working on developing his shovel edging skills all winter.  He is learning how to drive his tips while deflecting down the zipperline and stuffing his tips into the mogul face (loose snow) when skiing over the tops.  He's learning how to carve turns in any terrain while maintaining fluidity and his effort can be seen as he generates rebound energy at the turn finish allowing his feet to float and follow the ski out away from his body during the top part of the turn. A good example of this is at the 19 sec. mark.  At the 27 sec. mark, he stuffs his tips and goes over a good sized bump while maintaining line.  He's an SVMM skier and is learning to defy the terrain he navigates and use it to his advantage while gaining speed control.

post #83 of 141
Quote:
Abox wrote:

Everyone knows to stay out of the backseat, but skiing stacked also keeps you out of the passenger seat.

The stacked position also inhibits the skiers ability to execute carved turns in natural terrain.
post #84 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post



The stacked position also inhibits the skiers ability to execute carved turns in natural terrain.

 


You said that already. 
post #85 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post


My boy, who is 9, has been working on developing his shovel edging skills all winter.

  I wish my kids were half that motivated to ski well, much less ski competitively.  I guess it is easier to get the laps in living closer to the terrain.  My kids (6 and 7) only want to try to ski about two days a year (and for about 2 hours per day). 

In the end it really all boils down to experience.  All the crud and other shizz you hit while skiing  and not really looking for it better prepares you for skiing inconsistent terrain like the bumps that we seek out intentionally.  Then, once we're comfortable skiing that terrain aggressively we can add new techniques to our tool box (different strategies, turn shapes, line choices, etc..).  Finally, once we have crossed that line we begin to discuss what we've learned passionately
post #86 of 141
Quote:
 
No pretending from me, really. If I had video of myself skiing moguls, i'd post it up. Sorry. A few of the guys who hang here have skied with me. If they want to say i suck, I can live with that.

The quip about bob comes from a video of him skiing moguls that was put up a few years ago and got lambasted by the Harb people. Inside joke if you don't remember.

I'm sure bob skis moguls as most instructors do, the technical line which is why he is siding with Nail.

Nail skis bumps ok his way which is fine by me. To each his own. Those guys bashing others who prefer to ski zipperline pisses me off.

Lars, what is it with you? This is a discussion about various legitimate skiing strategies, techniques, and tactics. Why do you seem to think it's about who's "the best skier"? What's even more inexplicable is why you seem to think that how well someone skis has any bearing on the legitimacy or relevance of what they are saying. Besides being a well-known logical fallacy (in other words, not a very good argument), it suggests insecurity of the first order. I'll let my words here stand on their own, thank you. I will post--and frequently have posted--clips and images of myself if I think that they will help clarify a point. But I won't do it just to prove something to you! You know where to sign up for a lesson if you want an on-snow demonstration.

And, since you brought it up, and added the line, "If you don't remember,"--you don't. While no doubt the Harbies would have tripped and drooled all over themselves for the opportunity, the "lambasting" you refer to was about the "other" Bob Barnes--currently the ski school director at Winter Park/Mary Jane--over an article in Ski or Skiing or similar that featured him as the "god of bump teaching" or something to that effect. If you don't remember, it was a pathetic and desperate attempt to discredit someone who is truly an exceptional bump skier and teacher. While I don't always agree with all of Bob's ideas, he is a gifted skier and a knowledgeable, experienced, insightful, and extremely popular teacher whose thoughts and advice are always worth a listen and a try--at the very least. The many enthusiastic participants in Bob's well-known bumps workshops are sufficient testament to his worthiness as the subject of that article. The "discussion" you refer to was an unfortunate case of mistaken identity--not to mention a display of ignorance and desperation--although I would have been flattered had it actually been about me.

Carry on, Lars, but if you don't have any actual content to add to these discussions (as you frequently suggest that you don't), please consider just reading, instead of quoting entire posts and adding only a misinformed--but potentially offensive--"quip."

Best regards,
Bob
 
post #87 of 141
Quote:
crgildart wrote:

  I wish my kids were half that motivated to ski well, much less ski competitively.  I guess it is easier to get the laps in living closer to the terrain.  My kids (6 and 7) only want to try to ski about two days a year (and for about 2 hours per day). 

I hear what you are saying, even living minutes away from a destination resort, I swear if it weren't for the brick oven pizza at the base lodge, we'd never get out the door.  The snow gun jumps we have are pretty addicting too.

I've got 2 boys, 9 and 4.  I think last year was the first time I ever heard my oldest say, "come on Dad, get into your ski clothes so we can get to the hill. It was also last year that the pecking order switched and instead of us waiting for him, he started waiting on us.  

The younger boy is much more driven to go skiing, as he has to be doing whatever his big  brother is doing.  I am not kidding about the jumps, kids love to catch air and get that weightless feeling.  Sometimes we don't go skiing, we just go to the hill to look for the jumps.

I'm sure it can be frustrating at times, but your kids are young still and just entering the more adventurous ages.  I suggest good food, easy terrain and small jumps to build their confidence and comfort level which hopefully will lead to a desire for more of the "gravity/speed fix".
post #88 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Quote:

Lars, what is it with you? This is a discussion about various legitimate skiing strategies, techniques, and tactics. Why do you seem to think it's about who's "the best skier"? What's even more inexplicable is why you seem to think that how well someone skis has any bearing on the legitimacy or relevance of what they are saying. Besides being a well-known logical fallacy (in other words, not a very good argument), it suggests insecurity of the first order. I'll let my words here stand on their own, thank you. I will post--and frequently have posted--clips and images of myself if I think that they will help clarify a point. But I won't do it just to prove something to you! You know where to sign up for a lesson if you want an on-snow demonstration.

And, since you brought it up, and added the line, "If you don't remember,"--you don't. While no doubt the Harbies would have tripped and drooled all over themselves for the opportunity, the "lambasting" you refer to was about the "other" Bob Barnes--currently the ski school director at Winter Park/Mary Jane--over an article in Ski or Skiing or similar that featured him as the "god of bump teaching" or something to that effect. If you don't remember, it was a pathetic and desperate attempt to discredit someone who is truly an exceptional bump skier and teacher. While I don't always agree with all of Bob's ideas, he is a gifted skier and a knowledgeable, experienced, insightful, and extremely popular teacher whose thoughts and advice are always worth a listen and a try--at the very least. The many enthusiastic participants in Bob's well-known bumps workshops are sufficient testament to his worthiness as the subject of that article. The "discussion" you refer to was an unfortunate case of mistaken identity--not to mention a display of ignorance and desperation--although I would have been flattered had it actually been about me.

Carry on, Lars, but if you don't have any actual content to add to these discussions (as you frequently suggest that you don't), please consider just reading, instead of quoting entire posts and adding only a misinformed--but potentially offensive--"quip."

Best regards,
Bob
 

Actually what I was referring to Bob was a clip of an Epic Ski outing where you and several others were skiing, Nolo cgeib and others, that showed you skiing some bumps that was actually supprising to some, and ripped upon by a Harb supporter who got banned, actually two people who got banned. I know the other Bob Barnes at WP/MJ as he used to live around here and we actually have skied together in various places years ago, as well as mutual friends.

That's what I was referring about. It's the only video of you i've seen of you skiing moguls and in fact wasn't very good. The defense at the time was the video wasn't meant to be used as MA it was just a fun outing. Who cares anyhow. I have made much contributions in these mogul discussions, ones that went several pages. Some good, some bad.

I don't have insecurities about my skiing. I don't make my living off skiing like you do. I've just been skiing for 50 plus years. I'm loosing a little lately since I quit patrolling. Don't ski 100 days a year anymore. Love my skiing though. And really don't care for those with ski instructor mentality that views all others with less abilities as "hackers" as you once posted.

To get back to discussion, bump skiers ski the bumps with passion and whatever they can use for tools to get the job done. Ski instructors ski moguls using technical moves and carve their way using what they teach. Which is why I've never really seen any of them look really good in moguls.

So, to the survey, WC bumping methods are the way to go. I'll add most of the time.

And bob, just because you're part owner of the website and are a top level PSIA with books to his credit doesn't mean you're God and everyone should believe your words as gospel.

Bump on everyone.
post #89 of 141
The video of BMM has no float in the turn, To me the skiing is as BB says is defensive.  The stacked position of his body limits the angulation of the knees and basic balance that a skier can create from allowing balance against the forces of the turn as the skis come into the fall line.

As the skis come into the fall line this is when pressure is built up and the ski goes into reverse camber. Then as the skier comes across the fall line is when the skier is in a stacked position. Because at this point the ski is floating through or across the fall line.

The way to ski to me is offensive. Suggest that bumpers ski more groomed and experiment with different ways to load the ski. For the skiers 1st 3 turns apply a lot of downward pressure trying to get pressure between the ski and snow. Then once the ski is loaded allow the ski to be put on more angle and let the pressure build as it comes into the fall line.The result will be more knee angulation and the ski will turn effortlessly and above the fall line.

Remember that this all happens in the previous turn and is how a skier gets more float into his next turn. Allowing for time to see and adjust what is happening below the skier.
post #90 of 141
 It's up and down and round and round it's like a merry-go-around. Block bad embrace good, find your happy place. Smooth good impact bad. 80% shock should be taken with your skis not feet.
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