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ma: video attached (updated)

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
So I had posted here a month ago or so and got a ton of good advice.
I've been trying just about everything said, big things are keeping the upper body still and countering the turn, and pulling the feet back.

This clip is a pretty shallow slope but I've been trying to see about eliminating my up move at transition.
I still am finding my self in the back seat in steeper and more difficult terrain. I'm trying to find a way to consistently keep forward without popping up.

Here is me struggling to do 10 new things at once last weekend:



Here is the old thread:
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/90978/ma-video-attached/0
And the video of my skiing a month or so ago from that thread:


Basically I've gotten some great advice here and am looking to keep improving my turns and ability to ski steeper terrain more cleanly.

thanks
post #2 of 15
Hey, you have done massive improvement . Very good. I did not remember how you skied before so it was nice with the old clip for direct comparisson. I also dont remember what I told you but the advice you recieved you used well. What I would like you to do still is to be even more patient at the top of the turn. You still have a tendency to rush it and then skidd more than necessary at the end. I liked your upper body. Very good form. Some stemming.... yes, thats hard to get rid of but you are clearly on the right track. Good work.
post #3 of 15
Try this drill.  Drag both poles hard on the snow all the time.  Put your arms way out and hold the poles vertical with the tips by your feet.  This will make an up-move hard, plus it'll help cure your tendency to incline.  The rule is that your shoulders should be level with the hill, and that can't be judged by the skier, but you get the idea.  You'll find that your outside pole is in the air.  Flex at the waist to keep that pole hard on the snow.  You want your center of mass, somewhere in the abdomen, balanced over the toe of your outside foot.  This drill helps one learn angulation.

Add to that drill after you manage to keep both pole tips dragging hard on the snow.  During the turn sweep both arms so your inside hand is over your inside ski tip and your outside hand is even with your feet.  This adds counter to the angulation.

For that sit-back problem...get used to the fact that your head and shoulders has to be the first thing down the hill.  You need to feel like you're diving off the edge of a swimming pool.  You need to trust that you dive head first down the hill and your skis will be under you controlling you.  If your head and shoulders aren't leading the way down the hill, the ski tips aren't engaged in the snow controlling you.  On a steep pitch, the inside edge of your outside ski must engage the snow before the ski reaches the fall line to get control.  Get your feet behind you by pulling both feet strongly back when you start each new turn, and continuously pull the inside foot strongly back throughout every turn.  Try to keep your ski tips even--it can't be done, but the effort keeps you forward.
post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

  This will make an up-move hard, plus it'll help cure your tendency to incline.  The rule is that your shoulders should be level with the hill, and that can't be judged by the skier, but you get the idea. 
What's wrong with inclination? Isn't level shoulders kind of old-school these days? IMO you need to be able to use both inclination and angulation. They both have their place.
post #5 of 15
Good descriptions of the drills and desired actions!

This last statement could use some more explanation i think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

Get your feet behind you by pulling both feet strongly back when you start each new turn, and continuously pull the inside foot strongly back throughout every turn.  Try to keep your ski tips even--it can't be done, but the effort keeps you forward.

There are several ways of pulling the feet back. You could do it by keeping the upper body bent forward and then extending at the hip. You could also do it by standing neutral and pushing the knees down. You could do it indirectly by dorsiflexion. And probably more ways.
What way do you think is best for the OP and the desired outcome?
post #6 of 15
AC,

Nice improvement form the last video. You should be feeling the difference.

Counter is one thing that will help stop the pop. Finish your turns with your lower body turning more across the hill than your upper body so that your upper body is facing more down the hill (not necessarily directly down the hill, but in these turns that would make it easier to get the feeling of it). A drill for this "picture frame". Hold your poles in the middle of the shafts and use them to frame an object at the bottom of a trail. Make turns keep the object "framed" between the poles.

You've narrowed your stance from the last clip and you are initiating your turns with a lateral movement across the skis. If you finish your turns in a countered position, you will be able to add a forward component to your turn initiation movement. One way to do this is to simultaneously bend your new inside ankle while extending your new outside ankle (e.g. stand on tip toe movement). Adding these movements to your turns will help you stay more centered on steeper terrain. It will also let you widen your stance a bit more which you will need to do as you develop higher edge angles on the steeper terrain (or to go faster across the hill on flatter terrain). Take the tip tapping drill that I gave you in the last post and build on that by lifting the tail of the new inside ski and then tipping the tip of that ski in the direction of the new turn (onto the new edge). It's important to move toward where that tip is pointing as you change edges of the new outside ski.
post #7 of 15

You're at an intermediate stage of skills acquisition. So please take what I have to say as a glimpse into the future based on where I see your current skills and tactics. 
In your quest to eliminate pop you are now limiting your RoM and creating a very static and posed movement pattern. Especially in your legs and hips. Don't mistake accuracy for a lack of movement and a reduced range of motion in the joints. Or for excessive muscle tension that produces rigidity. A quality I heard as you skied by the camera BTW. It's very analogous to replacing the shocks on your car with a rigid metal tubes. The result would be even slight terrain variations (bumps) would induce bounce, or intermittent loss of contact with the road. Not to mention a very harsh ride quality to your car. Bringing that back to the snow, we don't want the skis to skitter, or bounce for that very same reason. Remember, a rigid body inhibits your ability to regulate pressure on a consistent basis. The cure is to relax those muscles enough to allow them to act more like shock absorbers, instead of rigid support poles (the tubes I mentioned). If you're rigid because your stance is off, don't allow your stance to get so out of whack in the first place.   

Add to that the abbreviated turn finish and it's easy to see why steeper slopes expose your multiple stance and balance problems. Let's start by considering the possible effects of an aft and static stance at such an early initiation. It allows the skis to accelerate but the body lags behind, which in turn forces you to look for stance correction options like pulling the feet back, or the staccato edge set that produces the upward "popping" you say you are trying to eliminate. Both slow the feet down though so as stance correction options they are quite valid. That doesn't mean they are something you should use at the end of every turn though. If that's occurring you again need to consider not allowing your stance to get so far out of whack in the first place.
So what would you need to change about the earlier part of your turns that would produce a more contemporaneous relationship between the feet and the body? Move forward with the skis instead of allowing your body to lean back.
Would you want to stay inclined throughout the entire turn?
How about allowing the skis to move across the hill further (hang onto the turn a bit longer) while the body continues to move down the hill? Can you do that while banking? Perhaps but that usually involves a long radius turn. So it's not always the best option. Would you need to think about adding some progressive angulation in the second half of the turn? Probably, especially If your doing a shorter radius turn on something steep. Although we need to remember there are no absolutes when it comes to tactics and technique. Try it and see if that works for you. 

So here's the bottom line. IMO you need to stop trying to pose and start moving. How? Well, by not lingering in an inclined stance beyond the middle of the turn. Allow the body to move over the outside ski progressively from the apex of the current turn and through the transition into the next turn, and eventually towards the apex of the next turn. As this is happening keep the feet turning across the hill through the finish of the current turn. That slightly wider path of the feet gives the body a chance to catch up without adding a braking movement to the feet. It also allows you to set yourself up for success in the next turn since everything is now moving contemporaneously. If on occation you end up pulling back the feet, it's now an appropriate corrective adjustment and not an elemental part of every turn.
Ski Well My Friends,
JASP


Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/16/10 at 11:17am
post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

What's wrong with inclination? Isn't level shoulders kind of old-school these days? IMO you need to be able to use both inclination and angulation. They both have their place.
 

Level shoulders works on all conditions; inclination works on hero snow and in some race turns.  Watch out for the New England powder if you're an incliner!  Given his current level, the original poster will benefit significantly from focusing on skiing with level shoulders (and from the fore-aft improvements suggested by SSG in the same post.)  If he can ski with level shoulders, I have no doubt he can also ski with inclination.
post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post




Level shoulders works on all conditions; inclination works on hero snow and in some race turns.  Watch out for the New England powder if you're an incliner!  Given his current level, the original poster will benefit significantly from focusing on skiing with level shoulders (and from the fore-aft improvements suggested by SSG in the same post.)  If he can ski with level shoulders, I have no doubt he can also ski with inclination.



 



I have to disagree with the statement that level shoulders work in all conditions. I believe it severly limits the range of edging. When your hip is inches above the ground it is pretty hard to have level shoulders. I also think that trying to always have the shoulders level fosters using angulation as a primary edging mechanics, and a static position during the turn.
We do use level shoulders as a drill to practice angulation, but it is nothing we encourage at all times. I have seen many cases when our juniors get stuck with angulation and level shoulders as a primary edging mechanic. They get into a lot of trouble as it gets steeper.

As JASP says its usally a good thing to progressively increase angulation. This usually means that in the turn entry the primary edging machanics is inclination and at the exit there is a lot more angulation.

post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post





I have to disagree with the statement that level shoulders work in all conditions. I believe it severly limits the range of edging. When your hip is inches above the ground it is pretty hard to have level shoulders. I also think that trying to always have the shoulders level fosters using angulation as a primary edging mechanics, and a static position during the turn.
We do use level shoulders as a drill to practice angulation, but it is nothing we encourage at all times. I have seen many cases when our juniors get stuck with angulation and level shoulders as a primary edging mechanic. They get into a lot of trouble as it gets steeper.

As JASP says its usally a good thing to progressively increase angulation. This usually means that in the turn entry the primary edging machanics is inclination and at the exit there is a lot more angulation.


its all about intent. inclination at the start of some GS and faster turns isnt such a bad thing but by the fall line(ish) shoulder should be moving outward to be strong on your outside ski. Sometime the shoulders never get truly straight up but just the movement of getting your shoulders and almost as importantly you inside pelvis up builds power on the outside ski.

I also want to add that for a normal skier on normal(non race skis) heavy angulation works better at slow speeds on new england "packed powder".
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post


I have to disagree with the statement that level shoulders work in all conditions. I believe it severly limits the range of edging. When your hip is inches above the ground it is pretty hard to have level shoulders.


Whoah.  Wait a minute.  Stop the presses.  What does a hip inches from the snow have to do with the original poster???  This is his thread.  Sure, when my butt's inches from the snow, my shoulders aren't level ... but I'm counterbalancing pretty hard and my shoulders are more level than inclined.  I used level shoulders as a proxy for counterbalancing because it was used in the earlier post, it is a good visual indicator, and it is the desired outcome for the OP and anyone remotely near his skill level.

Since you brought it up, it's pretty easy to boot out while trying to level the shoulders, so how on earth can it severely limit the range of edging? 
post #12 of 15
Sorry, I don't undersand what boot out means
post #13 of 15
Boot out occurs when you lean so far over that your boot makes contact with the snow and raises the ski edges out of the snow, usually resulting in being unceremoniously dumped on your side.
post #14 of 15
And *the* solution for all your booting out problems is the allmighty 2 cm ESS super powerflex plate. With sharknose goodness ;)

 ESS Super Powerflex Plate.jpg




...sorry couldn't resist....
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post


Since you brought it up, it's pretty easy to boot out while trying to level the shoulders, so how on earth can it severely limit the range of edging? 
 
Well, If you have level shoulders and are booting out, your are probably way past the fall line. If you are booting out at the bottom of the turn it's quite likely that you have too much pressure on the outside ski, and too much pressure on the outside ski is caused by... too much angulation.

In reality though I think the reason I see juniors with level shoulders do not edge enough is that they get into a mode where they always have the CoM between the skis. It feels safe for them.

Regarding the OP I think that he has a LOT more to gain by working on dynamics like flexing and extending than to ski with level shoulders. Angulating comes naturally when you are more dynamic and edge more. It is also very easy.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › ma: video attached (updated)