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Which brushes to use when hot waxing

post #1 of 40
2/14/10 at 5:33pm
Thread Starter 
I have asked about filing edges and several other things ,and you answered everything ,thanks. I am returning to sking after 2 decades of no sking. I am wondering about the proper brushes to use to clean my skis first ,then again after waxing. .The website below has lots of info on which brushes to use,I'm thinking one brass/copper one will be all I need  .I have Toko universal wax,( one wax for all conditions) and am just a recreatinal skier,with Head Monsters 78"s .My 35 year old Olins skis were a totally different design ,and I'm learning to wax all over again. Can someone help me out here ?
Thanks ,Neil

http://www.skiwax.ca/tp/brushes_why.php
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post #2 of 40
2/14/10 at 5:46pm
My wax removal process is:
Plastic scraper (always sharpened)
Brash brush
Horsehair brush
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post #3 of 40
2/14/10 at 6:41pm
Thread Starter 
Do you mean only for cleaning or is one for polishing? ?
I have phoned several ski shops but get different answers,from buy em all and stones too.to naw just use the nylon brush for everything.
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post #4 of 40
2/14/10 at 6:46pm
 those are for taking off all the hot wax (after it's cooled of course.)

I do have a steel brush I use for cleaning as well.

I also do have a nylon brush that I'll use last but it's really just for a nice shine.

Brass then horsehair is a good basic combo (after scraping.)
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post #5 of 40
2/14/10 at 10:40pm
Thread Starter 

Thanks,for the info ,I was trhinking one brush may be for cleaning before waxing,and the other for after waxing..I just bought 2 brushes ,ones nylon the other is brass with white nylon bristles around the edge .Looking at them through a magnifying glass the nylon one has bigger bristles ,the nylon/brass one has bristles of equal size ,and about half the size of the bristles on the all nylon brush...Which do I use last?  Should I use one of these to initially clean the bases before waxing? Wich one?

 You mentioned using your nylon brush to get a good shine,you use it last ,so I reckon I'd use the finer brass one first after the wax cools ( 1/2 hour or so) then follow up with the nylon one for polishing?  How am I doing?  I just spent  $24.00 on the nylon one and $36 on the brass one.They are made by KUU whoever that is.,they seem to be good quality though.

 

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post #6 of 40
2/15/10 at 5:25am
 The idea is to use coarse first then fine, then finer, like with diamonds.

So again.

First scrape
Then coarse brass brush
Then finer horsehair
Then finest nylon.
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post #7 of 40
2/15/10 at 11:45am
I used to use a brass brush after scraping, then some WC tech was on here and against brass brushes after waxing.  I scrape a bit harder now than I used to (I HATE SCRAPING, by the way) and now go right to the horsehair, then a stiffish nylon then a soft nylon.  The wax seems to last a bit longer.  I only use the brass brush to clean the bases before waxing now.  
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post #8 of 40
2/15/10 at 12:41pm
You don't need brushes.  Just wax and ski.  You'll have excess wax on the skis and they'll stick like glue, but only for the first turn.  After that you'll glide fine.  We aren't racers worrying about the last 100th of a second.  Or, re-melt the wax on your skis and immediately wipe off the excess molten wax with a paper towel.  The wax down in the pores of the base material is the wax that counts.
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post #9 of 40
2/15/10 at 12:56pm
I've been using the "let the snow do the scraping" method for years and it works just fine.  Why bother going crazy if you're not racing?  It's a little stick for the first 50 feet like softsnowguy said be just fine after that.
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post #10 of 40
2/15/10 at 1:09pm
Wax and ski it off or scrape, then use a series of different brushes? I'm somewhere in between, having experienced problems with unscraped skis after years of going that route. Local conditions don't seem to require scraping, but after the problem at Snowbird, I began scraping and sometimes corking because I had a scraper and a cork. More recently I've acquired a nylon brush and have been using it instead of the cork.

Sometimes I cork after brushing. Is that a good idea or is a brushed finish better than corked?
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post #11 of 40
2/15/10 at 1:10pm
Wax, scrape, and nylon brush is good enough for my purposes.
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post #12 of 40
2/15/10 at 1:55pm
As with all things, the need for brushing has variables including (and not limited to) personal preferences, snow type, where you ski, wax type, energy/time/mojo, etc.

Though I'm also not racing, I do like optimal glide as soon as the skis hit the snow. On abrasive snow and immediately going downhill, the 'don't need to brush' perspective may be fine. On soft snow and powder where the snow is not abrasive and often a lot of traversing or game trail gliding is required to get somewhere, waiting for the snow to 'brush' the bases is defeating the purpose.

The hardness of the wax will have bearing on brush choice (and durability). Softer, Universal waxes may not need a brass brush, whereas a more durable performance wax job will be shortened with the use of the brass initially. Follow with hard horsehair and polish with nylon. Some nylon brushes are stiffer than others and may be all you need, especially with lower grade and warmer temp waxes.
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post #13 of 40
2/15/10 at 2:09pm
I used to be in the no scrape, just wax and go category, but please don't do this in the spring unless you like to be ejected from your skis when you hit the wet stuff.  You need a clear structure then or a sort of "vacuum" develops and it's like you just ran onto a rubber mat. 
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post #14 of 40
2/15/10 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I used to use a brass brush after scraping, then some WC tech was on here and against brass brushes after waxing.  I scrape a bit harder now than I used to (I HATE SCRAPING, by the way) and now go right to the horsehair, then a stiffish nylon then a soft nylon.  The wax seems to last a bit longer.  I only use the brass brush to clean the bases before waxing now.  
 

Yeah I was looking for that thread the other day....at any rate, I took his advice, and my racing has been faster earlier in the season than in seasons passed.   The skis felt very fast and looked to be in better shape at the end of the day.

I brass brushed, waxed, scraped, then brushed with a stiff nylon until a very high luster was on the bases (arm nearly fell off).

Where I did repairs I used a steel brush to try and restore some of the structure.   But no more metal touching the bases after the wax goes on.  Seems to be working well for me.
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post #15 of 40
2/15/10 at 2:50pm
It was cold dry windpack that stopped me cold and had me scraping my snowboard near the summit of Snowbird. Not just a wet snow problem.
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post #16 of 40
2/15/10 at 2:51pm
I think that is a different issue.  I think that's the type of wax, not a brushing issue. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

It was cold dry windpack that stopped me cold and had me scraping my snowboard near the summit of Snowbird. Not just a wet snow problem.
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post #17 of 40
2/15/10 at 3:10pm
 Possibly. I was using Toko general purpose wax. I think it was called TF90. Similar to the white (milky) colored Toko wax I'm looking at now "Alpine/Snowboard Hot Wax All-in-one for all snow conditions and temperatures" . It worked fine after excess was removed. I had been trained to carry a plastic scraper with me, so I didn't have to use my library card. :)
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post #18 of 40
2/15/10 at 3:25pm
Well, yes it is a wax issue, but like Alpine pointed out above, some waxes are harder to get out of the structure than others.  Bottom line, use only as much brush as you need to remove the wax without damaging the structure. I like to sort of hit the base with the brush as I arc the stroke down and into the groves, a bit of a shoe-shine technique.

Using a metal brush to remove p-tex  micro-hairs is another kettle of fish.
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post #19 of 40
2/15/10 at 8:19pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone for the info . I was getting confused with all the new stuff they have nowadays..We used to drip the wax on ,scrape it off then polish with a cork block..Since there's no indentation running down the middle of skis anymore I am re learning ,but have it figured out ..Im using the wax Telerod15 is ,and I'm no racer,I'm going to clean skis ,with brass brush lightly ,then drip wax on ,wait 30 minutes ,scrape off ,brush with brass brush ,followed by nylon brush ,and hit the slopes .If I do anything different I will switch brushes ,or maybe use only the nylon one ,then the brass one next time ..I have the logic figured out finally ,It's the tiny little groves in the skis that keep them stable ,so they need to be free of wax ,whether the coarse snow cleans em or a brush..After waxing ,and brushing I'l inspect the tiny lines ...Any way what ever I do will be better than no wax at all.
Thanks again to all your help ,
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post #20 of 40
2/16/10 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcaret View Post

Thanks everyone for the info . I was getting confused with all the new stuff they have nowadays..We used to drip the wax on ,scrape it off then polish with a cork block..Since there's no indentation running down the middle of skis anymore I am re learning ,but have it figured out ..Im using the wax Telerod15 is ,and I'm no racer,I'm going to clean skis ,with brass brush lightly ,then drip wax on ,wait 30 minutes ,scrape off ,brush with brass brush ,followed by nylon brush ,and hit the slopes .If I do anything different I will switch brushes ,or maybe use only the nylon one ,then the brass one next time ..I have the logic figured out finally ,It's the tiny little groves in the skis that keep them stable ,so they need to be free of wax ,whether the coarse snow cleans em or a brush..After waxing ,and brushing I'l inspect the tiny lines ...Any way what ever I do will be better than no wax at all.
Thanks again to all your help ,

You are correct that the intent of brushing is to free the 'tiny grooves' of wax. The tiny grooves in the base are called the base structure and affect the glide (sometimes more than wax, ie wet snows) by reducing suction and/or drag relative to snow crystals. Typically, a finer structure works best for cold, dry snows and a more aggressive for channeling water better in wet, spring snows. A medium structure is more of a 'universal' structure that probably works OK for rec skiers, but will feel slow in wet conditions.
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post #21 of 40
2/16/10 at 1:42pm
The only thing that keeps modern skis short radius skis "stable" is keeping them on an engaged edge, but yes, you do need to expose the structure by brushing the wax out of the tiny grooves.
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post #22 of 40
2/16/10 at 2:27pm
If you wax a ski good, it gets hard, so even a stiff stainless won't hardly scratch it. 
I don't mess around when it comes to brushing.  It's always a progression of brushes that works the best, just like stoning a edge.  I don't care what kind of snow you are on, that's a structure thing.   No matter what kind of structure you have, it needs to be completely void of any wax whatsoever to work right.
Don't be scared to brush stiff, and hard.  Use a coarse fiber pad after you raise hair from a stiff stainless, but you will see, after more waxing, you will be hard pressed to raise a hair at all.  That's when you know you have a saturated base, not a dry one!
Buy all the brushes!  
Funny, the one I use the least is the nylon.  I pretty much only use it at the Mt. for post Butter, or HF rub on.
Of course if you want not to go so fast, just skip the brushing all together.   Leave a bunch of wax on it all the time, it will turn into cement after a while.  Nothing like old dried out wax!

OK, I can see I need to get a life, and get out of here! :-)   Guess I'll go brush the hell out of some skis!
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post #23 of 40
2/16/10 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

The only thing that keeps modern skis short radius skis "stable" is keeping them on an engaged edge, but yes, you do need to expose the structure by brushing the wax out of the tiny grooves.
 

I think if you put a true full downhill grind on them, you might be surprised, but don't forget to brush out the structure COMPLETLY.
They should feel way less squirrely when running flat then.

Oh, I said I'd leave, now I must go brush!    Be good Ghost
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post #24 of 40
2/16/10 at 6:59pm

Ok i'm confused.  I can see having grooves in the base if you were going to run your ski without wax so that it channels water, doesn't create suction etc. but once you apply a coat of wax all of those grooves are filled in, correct?  Are they saying that we need to create channels in the fresh coat of wax once it dries?  Wax beads water regardless of channels creating the little ball bearing affect on the snow and anyway, who skis with their skis flat anyway?  Did that with my 160 slalom skis the other day and almost crashed going 10 mph!  I agree with those that like a spit shined surface however you can get it.  I will try a nice boot brush next time, I personally use a microfiber cloth, same one I use to wax a car.  Just my .02 cents.

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post #25 of 40
2/16/10 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher J. Walkoe View Post

Ok i'm confused.  I can see having grooves in the base if you were going to run your ski without wax so that it channels water, doesn't create suction etc. but once you apply a coat of wax all of those grooves are filled in, correct?  Are they saying that we need to create channels in the fresh coat of wax once it dries?  Wax beads water regardless of channels creating the little ball bearing affect on the snow and anyway, who skis with their skis flat anyway?  Did that with my 160 slalom skis the other day and almost crashed going 10 mph!  I agree with those that like a spit shined surface however you can get it.  I will try a nice boot brush next time, I personally use a microfiber cloth, same one I use to wax a car.  Just my .02 cents.

Yes, you have to get the wax out of those tiny grooves with a brush.  There will still be wax on the surface of the ski, and in the pores under the surface of the ski, but the groves must be exposed.
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post #26 of 40
2/16/10 at 9:01pm
Thread Starter 
OK ,one more question.I hot wax my skis ,scrape excess wax off then brush the wax out of the base structure ( tiny little groves) ,now the base structure is exposed .This sounds as if there will be no wax in the base structure ,but I beleive you mean theres no build up of wax ,but the base structure has a film of wax in the grooves ,other wise there would be no point in waxing if I brushed it all off. Like waxing my car ,I rub all the wax off and it shines ,but what I really did was rub off the excess wax leaving a protective coat on the surface .
How am I doing now?? 
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post #27 of 40
2/16/10 at 9:09pm
You got it. You are after a thin, even layer of wax with even sheen and 'freed' structure:

web.jpg?ver=12632117460001
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post #28 of 40
2/17/10 at 6:39pm

When you really got it right, your ski bases will shine.   The shinier they are the faster they will be.

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post #29 of 40
2/17/10 at 9:01pm

Went skiing tonight in roughly 30 degree weather, you could tell the snow was not exactly wet but not frozen like usual.  Applied blue low florinated race wax 12 to 28 on my GS Rossignols and scraped it pretty good, not much wax coming up and then buffed it with a micro fiber cloth.  The skis just hauled ass all night and enjoyed passing people with ease.  Moral to the story is tune and wax your skis every time you ski and you will be rewarded ten fold.  Good excuse to drink a beer and get pumped for skiing!

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post #30 of 40
2/17/10 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcaret View Post

OK ,one more question.I hot wax my skis ,scrape excess wax off then brush the wax out of the base structure ( tiny little groves) ,now the base structure is exposed .This sounds as if there will be no wax in the base structure ,but I beleive you mean theres no build up of wax ,but the base structure has a film of wax in the grooves ,other wise there would be no point in waxing if I brushed it all off. Like waxing my car ,I rub all the wax off and it shines ,but what I really did was rub off the excess wax leaving a protective coat on the surface .
How am I doing now?? 

OK xcaret, this is the deal.  It's not wax ON a ski that makes it glide good, it's the wax IN the ski.  To get wax IN you need to wax properly many times over, cooling,scraping, and brushing each time.  Or hot boxing is faster to start the process. 
Any wax left on the base or edges of the ski will decrease glide in most any case.  Brush the hell out of them, get all the brushes.  They should look like those in the pic above when you finish.  Good luck, and good gliding.
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