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How to do the "non-carving" parallel turn? - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Well if the phantom move isn't contradictory to my skiing system (Newtonian physics and beam displacement equation), and I see no obvious reason why it would be, maybe it is the phantom move.  What's a "phantom move" in layman's language?

I should add that you have to be careful not to tip too much if you don't want to make edge-locked carves; if you tip too aggressively, and you are not exceeding the limits of your intermediate ski, you will end up edge-locked carving, not smearing, unless it's very icy.  Once you have a good bit of steering angle between your ski-pointing direction and your direction of travel, you can tip more and kill more speed, but not until then.
post #32 of 59
Sorry Im out of qualifications .
post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickia View Post

Hi,Can someone please tell me the mechanics behind the non-carving parallel turn?www.youtube.com/watchI can do long carving turns but it's still not very stable. I can only do it on easier runs without many people around because of my wide turning radius. Carving looks nice but it is a bit too fast for my current skill level. I wouldn't dare to carve in a narrow steep slope because my speed would pick up and lose balance.I can do this on easier runs though not as elegant/smoothwww.youtube.com/watchWhat I want to learn is how to do the slow parallel turns so I can relax have some fun time at steeper runs without risking myself.I know that the direction change in carved turn is initiated by rolling the knee. How do I initiate a "non-carved" parallel turn? I see that the skis are also edged as well in a non-carving turn so what is the difference? Is there skidding involved in a non-carving turn?


Hey nickia,

 

I grew up in South Lake Tahoe and learned to ski at age 5 from my mother, the retired assistant ski school director and ski instructor examiner. When I was 10 I started skiing on the Heavenly Ski Foundation, the local ski race team. I quit racing at 15 and have free skied, with lots of off piste resort skiing, for the nine years since. I'm a 6'5" 195lb power skier but I can steer and ski with touch too it just didn't come natural to me until the last couple years.

 

It sounds like you're CURRENTLY initiating medium radius carved turns by:

 

1)Standing in a shoulder width or wider stance

2)Rolling both of your knees into the turn

3)Moving into the next turn by rolling your knees into the next turn (are you making a pole plant? answering that would just give me a better picture of how you currently move through your turn)

 

What you're doing is what you should do to make turns when you're trying to speed up. If you're trying to make turns and slow down you have to move up and down through the turn and skidding at the end of every turn to scrub off speed. The amount of skidding can be adjusted by the force you feel in your legs during the skid and your edge angle on the snow.

 

Steered turns on a groomed blue run are all done with moving up and down and adjusting edge angle with your feet.

 

Short turns for control on steep runs are done by moving up and down and putting both your hips and knees into the hill but facing your shoulders squarely down the fall line (angulation, it's visible in the fast carving second video you posted, but in those turns the angulation is to brace against the centrifugal force in the turn, but short turns in steeps you angulate to resist gravity. It's vital to move your upper body up and/or forward through every turn for control. Think jump turns but the jump is just turn initiation, you don't have to leap off the snow except in extreme circumstances.

 

It sounds like what you really want to learn is touch turns. These are hard, but beautiful if you know what you're looking at. I like a pole plant and a subtle hip and upper body forward motion leaving one turn and initiating the next. As you're moving forward you should be setting the tips of your skis, the shovels initiate the turn then you pressure the center of the ski, as the skis come around the fall line you can push out the tails and depending on your edge angle and pressure control you can pop the tails into the next turn or skid  and scrub speed.

 

Honestly, the best way to get to that stage is doing lots of stem christies. I love stem turns, they're one of the most valuable tricks in your bag. My friends tease me when they watch my gopro videos cuz i'm doing stem turns or using a wedge to navigate telemark skis through tight trees and logs after a backcountry run. whatever, the wedge is your friend and if you're comfortable sking in it you'll be comfortable skiing parallel, then stepping your uphill ski into the nest turn so you're in a wedge, and skidding/steering the new inside ski around. this and variations of it will develope your steering technique and will be useful everywhere on the mountain.

 

Get a lesson in person from a real ski instructor, and ask to be taken to a steep groomed run for a lesson on stem christies. some modern instructors can't do this well because they only teach carving technique and they aren't really great all around skiers so get an old pro. After the stem christies on a steep slope just do casual parallel turns on a blue cruiser and try to push your tails out without rotating your upper body or pushing your butt out with your tails. that's gaper technique.

 

 

-Clayton

post #34 of 59

Is skidding viewed here as synonymous with steering?  

 

I view them differently.  Skidding conjures the visual of uncontrolled lateral movements of the ski tails and/or the whole ski in my mind and is braking in nature.  While steering conjures a more positive, refined image of controlled rotary movements and edge angles to guide the ski around a desired arc much like the clips above and is more offensive in nature.  Steering is a more refined use of the skills while skidding demonstrates a lower skill level and has a negative connotation. 

 

I believe this is an important distinction to make.

 

whoops, i deleted my last posteek.gif

 

got back...


Edited by bud heishman - 10/21/11 at 3:47pm
post #35 of 59

How have your steered turns progressed nickia?

 

Your issues are not uncommon to new hire instructors who come from a racing background or are have discovered edge locked carving technique.

 

a good steered turn, and there are different degrees, is a blend of rotary and edging and could be imagined along a spectrum or continuum from pure edge locked carve with minimal rotary and maximum edging to the other end with minimal edging and maximum rotary.  This would be the pivot slip end of the spectrum where the skier does not change direction only the skis do.

 

Your challenge here is to find the blend AND be able to initiate a new turn from a skidded arc by smoothly releasing your platform.

 

My 2 cents worth is to learn, practice, and perfect "pivot slips" to "carving" and own the whole spectrum.  A common task in higher level instructor exams is to have candidates begin skiing pivot slips and gradually, progressively incorporate in more edge angle and less rotary and by changing this blend the skis begin to shape turns.  Some would also suggest that instead of increasing edge angles you could increase tip pressure which will also begin to create turn shape from pivot slips.  Either way the goal is to own the whole spectrum.

 

Play with these skill blending ratios to discover the turn shape you desire, but own the whole spectrum and you will own expert skills.

 

good luck.

 

post #36 of 59

Bud makes some excellent points in his last few posts -- there's nothing fundamentally different between a highly edged 'carved' turn and what is shown in the video linked in the OP.  It's just a question of using more or less edging, more or less speed, and more or less of a strong directional move through the transition.  (That said, going from the 'less carved' version to the 'more carved' version at the same speeds requires much better balance and edging skills.)

post #37 of 59

It is easy to make steered turns.

Just grab some old school skis that are plenty stiff and with >35 m radius and you will do it.

Put on some leather boots and it is positively easy to skid.

post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Is skidding viewed here as synonymous with steering?  

 

I view them differently.  Skidding conjures the visual of uncontrolled lateral movements of the ski tails and/or the whole ski in my mind and is braking in nature.  While steering conjures a more positive, refined image of controlled rotary movements and edge angles to guide the ski around a desired arc much like the clips above and is more offensive in nature.  Steering is a more refined use of the skills while skidding demonstrates a lower skill level and has a negative connotation. 

 

I believe this is an important distinction to make.

 

whoops, i deleted my last posteek.gif

 

got back...



Skidding and steering a done for fundamentally different reasons and are different, but it's easiest to start by learning how to do controlled skidding and then take those edge control skills to learning steering technique. That's why I recommended that the OP have an instructor give her/him a lesson on stem christies on a very steep groomed slope to practice controlled skidding and then try using those skills on a relatively gradual slope to steer turns.

 

-Clayton

post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post

It is easy to make steered turns.

Just grab some old school skis that are plenty stiff and with >35 m radius and you will do it.

Put on some leather boots and it is positively easy to skid.



haha, yeah that'll do it. If you try to initiate a turn by just tipping your knees in on some 205cm straight skis the skis will go straight ahead and you will fall over.

post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayCole View Post

Skidding and steering a done for fundamentally different reasons and are different, but it's easiest to start by learning how to do controlled skidding and then take those edge control skills to learning steering technique. That's why I recommended that the OP have an instructor give her/him a lesson on stem christies on a very steep groomed slope to practice controlled skidding and then try using those skills on a relatively gradual slope to steer turns.

 

-Clayton


Clay,  Not sure teaching anyone stem christies is a good idea if the goal is a good steered turn or any kind of offensive turning.  Stemming, especially for the OP would be a big step backwards and only introduce negative defensive movements in view of his goal.

 

Rather than avoiding the edge release movements in a good parallel turn by introducing a stem christie, I would encourage teaching the mechanics of a good edge release using various exercises.  A stem christie is a step in the wrong direction IMO.  The mechanics of a stem christie have nothing at all in common with a parallel entry.

 

post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayCole View Post

 

 

What you're doing is what you should do to make turns when you're trying to speed up. If you're trying to make turns and slow down you have to move up and down through the turn and skidding at the end of every turn to scrub off speed. The amount of skidding can be adjusted by the force you feel in your legs during the skid and your edge angle on the snow.

 

Steered turns on a groomed blue run are all done with moving up and down and adjusting edge angle with your feet.

 

Short turns for control on steep runs are done by moving up and down and putting both your hips and knees into the hill but facing your shoulders squarely down the fall line (angulation, it's visible in the fast carving second video you posted, but in those turns the angulation is to brace against the centrifugal force in the turn, but short turns in steeps you angulate to resist gravity. It's vital to move your upper body up and/or forward through every turn for control. Think jump turns but the jump is just turn initiation, you don't have to leap off the snow except in extreme circumstances.

 

It sounds like what you really want to learn is touch turns. These are hard, but beautiful if you know what you're looking at. I like a pole plant and a subtle hip and upper body forward motion leaving one turn and initiating the next. As you're moving forward you should be setting the tips of your skis, the shovels initiate the turn then you pressure the center of the ski, as the skis come around the fall line you can push out the tails and depending on your edge angle and pressure control you can pop the tails into the next turn or skid  and scrub speed.

 

Honestly, the best way to get to that stage is doing lots of stem christies. I love stem turns, they're one of the most valuable tricks in your bag. My friends tease me when they watch my gopro videos cuz i'm doing stem turns or using a wedge to navigate telemark skis through tight trees and logs after a backcountry run. whatever, the wedge is your friend and if you're comfortable sking in it you'll be comfortable skiing parallel, then stepping your uphill ski into the nest turn so you're in a wedge, and skidding/steering the new inside ski around. this and variations of it will develope your steering technique and will be useful everywhere on the mountain.

 

Get a lesson in person from a real ski instructor, and ask to be taken to a steep groomed run for a lesson on stem christies. some modern instructors can't do this well because they only teach carving technique and they aren't really great all around skiers so get an old pro. After the stem christies on a steep slope just do casual parallel turns on a blue cruiser and try to push your tails out without rotating your upper body or pushing your butt out with your tails. that's gaper technique.

 

 

-Clayton


After reading this post I question whether you have a clear understanding of the difference between steering and skidding??  Have you ever done or understand how to do pivot slips?  There are plenty of descriptions and videos around here to search out if you would like to learn more.

 

"Pushing your tails out" ain't steering in my book, skidding yes, but not steering.    Do a search here for the "Go" factor or "skiing the slow line fast" to understand better a more contemporary goal in skiing.

 

and welcome to Epicski Clayton!

post #42 of 59

Thanks Rick : It only took 24 posts before someone  used the term "steering" in some sort of educated and germane way... But to turn it into 'buy my DVD ?           Many points were 'true' in the posts so far as far as I could handle reading... but few were Nickia's next step... Which is the difference between good instructing and bad.

Learning the steered turn and doing many runs of them - skiing like most instructors - is only an exercise. Every run I ski has them in it usually due to: crowds, arguing over which run... white-outs, rhime ( OHH nooo - the Rhime )  steeps, talking on the cell or skiing with yer girlfriend/client...

Still - ya' gotta know how to ski them the same way the reliable basic wedge is a good thing if you are cruising along the cornice looking for the entrance ( no place for a carved high energy turn ) ... So ya' drop in and Voila' - the skid and the steered turn saves your ass for a few verts until you unleash linked pure carved turns while still high in the cirque.  Steering = skidding = reducing energy = something is not up to speed... Which also goes to the phrase 'Ski the hill/Race the race'.

Every turn should have all the elements to the correct degree and this means every carve has the steer and skid factors dialed back - tho' always on tap.

Dial up skid/steer combo and stivot into the high g-force laid out carve...

Good luck to Nickia and the 'next step'...


Edited by g-force - 10/22/11 at 10:42pm
post #43 of 59

What I hear from the OP is that they want to make "rounder" turns without going too fast.  Perhaps we can start there.

post #44 of 59

Someone's risen from the dead ... and in Utah, too.  Welcome.

post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

What I hear from the OP is that they want to make "rounder" turns without going too fast.  Perhaps we can start there.



1) Get on the inside edges sooner through the transition, so you're getting some speed control in the upper third of the turn.  This will give you a 'rounder' turn shape.

 

2) Use less edging throughout the turn if you want to go slower.  'Drifting' or 'smearing' through the turn will slow you down; an edge-locked carve will speed you up.

 

3) Keep the turn going across and up the hill if you want to scrub speed.  This is speed control through turn shape, sometimes referred to around here as "skiing the slow line fast".

post #46 of 59

Mastering linked pivots slips in a tight corridor down the fall line should help a lot with doing more steered "smeared' turns. This helps you with "feathering" the edges.

 

Like this

 

post #47 of 59

If pivot slips are too tough to start with -- they're remarkably tricky to do well -- you can also try just sideslips (while stopped, release and then re-engage your edges without any rotation of the skis, sliding sideways down the hill) or garlands (while traversing, release and then re-engage your edges with no or minimal rotation of the skis).  Couldn't quickly find any good videos of those.

 

For all of those drills, play around with easing on and off your edges, so the speedup/slowdown is more gradual.  Try maintaining a steady speed while slipping (that's usually the goal in a pivot slip), or changing speeds (go fast, then slow, then fast again, etc.)  Be sure to practice them in both directions!

 

Edit: grammar.

post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattL View Post

Mastering linked pivots slips in a tight corridor down the fall line should help a lot with doing more steered "smeared' turns. This helps you with "feathering" the edges.

 

Like this

 


Pivot slips are a very difficult drill.  I'll second Matthias99 ... work on side-slips instead, then work the side-slips into your turns.  Your goal is to feel how edged or how flat your skis are, and control that angle as your turn progresses.  Feeling when the skis are flat is the first step.  Side-slips will do that for you, because they won't work if the skis aren't flat. 

 

post #49 of 59

Guys guys guys!  pivot slips are difficult to master for the exact same reason they will take your skiing skill to the next level.  Taking the time to practice the pivot slips until you can smoothly release the edges (edging skills) and pivot the skis (rotary skills) then change the blend of these two movements effectively will lead to very nice steered turns.  If you do not master the rotary part of pivot slips and center that pivot point under the feet so that the tips go right and the tails go left, you will have difficulty steering smoothly throughout an arc.  Another great mechanism learned and essential to good pivot slips is the use of braquage or fulcrum turning rather than pushing off one foot or making any sequential movements.

 

Darn right it is not easy, but anything worth doing takes time and effort to reap the rewards.

 

Sideslipping and skidding on the other hand are very easy to achieve and are much lower level skills.  Sorry....sooner or later gotta pay some dues and do the work!

 

 

Matthias and Liquidfeet you are advocating skidding movements which again are different than steering movements.  The OP needs to learn active guiding or steering skills to accomplish his goal.

post #50 of 59

Bud, I see your point.  However, I do know people who can do open parallel turns but not pivot slips.  Their non-carved turns may not not perfect, but they may be what the OP is looking for.  

 

Now that I think about it, there is something to be said for learning something moderately difficult by attempting to learn something seriously difficult.  That may not make much sense the way I just stated it.  What I'm referring to is that I learned to do pivot slips finally, after almost three seasons of failure, by going for 360s.  Seems like 360s should be more difficult than pivot slips.  So I went out and tried 360s, did a few awkwardly in each direction, and that somehow got me able to do pivot slips awkwardly.  

 

Three hours later, after continuing to work on those pivot slips without a break, I had figured out how to do them smoothly.  I could even do them uphill/backwards.  

 

So maybe trying to do pivot slips will help the OP get a breakthrough and be able to do steered parallel turns.

post #51 of 59

Perhaps their open parallel turns would improve if they could do pivot slips well.   As I said earlier one of the certification tasks used by many examiners is pivot slips to open parallel to carved dynamic turns because it reveals the candidates skill level in appropriately blending skills to own this whole spectrum.  If there is somewhere along this spectrum a skier has difficulty it reveals weaknesses in certain skill acquisition.  

 

Why settle for shooting for somewhere on the target instead of at the bullseye? 

 

Remember, the perfect pivot slip moves straight down the fall line without ANY direction change.  The edge release is simultaneous with both legs pivoting evenly.  This is the difficult part!  The goal is to sideslip as fast as possible (minimal braking) and pivot as slowly as possible which requires exceptional edge control and rotary skills.

post #52 of 59

 

Quote:
Matthias and Liquidfeet you are advocating skidding movements which again are different than steering movements.  The OP needs to learn active guiding or steering skills to accomplish his goal.

 

I'm not sure where I said that (the word 'skid' does not appear in any post I made in this thread).  If you're referring to this:

 

Quote:
Use less edging throughout the turn if you want to go slower.  'Drifting' or 'smearing' through the turn will slow you down; an edge-locked carve will speed you up.

 

Then I guess I could have gone on and talked about how to adjust your line by steering your feet once you're not locked onto the edges.  I agree that you don't want to just uncontrollably skid sideways -- you still want to make controlled turns, just with less edge angle.

 

Quote:
Why settle for shooting for somewhere on the target instead of at the bullseye?

 

I was suggesting easier drills for edging.  Obviously you need to work rotary skills at some point, too.  I'm thinking 'progression' here, not 'eh, sideslips are just as good as pivot slips'.

 

The post I replied to was asking about how to dial back carved turns into open parallel -- to do that you have to be able to control the amount of edge you're using first IMO.

post #53 of 59

Maybe this is what you are looking for?

 

post #54 of 59
BWPA,

Everyone is always calling for video to show where someone is coming from and Jacques has one posted. Should be all good, right?

Chris
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

BWPA,
Everyone is always calling for video to show where someone is coming from and Jacques has one posted. Should be all good, right?
Chris


it was good, he just has to stop saying for people to ski like him.....

 

 

 

 

post #56 of 59

I would like to see some video posted of Cgeib because after following him around at Stowe last December, he is one of the best examples of what I have been trying to communicate here.  Chris has become a beautiful skier who has found the GO factor and skis with a soft touch that few can.  He does not set a hard edge at the turn completion to check his speed rather he releases his edges and keeps moving forward shaping the top of his turns smoothly controlling his descent with his line.

 

Sorry Jacques, as Squatty Schuler would say, "you know what you're doing there?.......that ain't it".    The turning power is coming from your hips and upper body rather than your lower legs.  We used to call this type of turn a hukilau turn.  

post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

Maybe this is what you are looking for?

 

Hey, when did you get a monoboard Jaques?duck.gif
 

 

post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

BWPA,
Everyone is always calling for video to show where someone is coming from and Jacques has one posted. Should be all good, right?
Chris


Don't bet on it!  It's a low quality video.  I had no idea the gut was shooting.

post #59 of 59



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Hey, when did you get a monoboard Jaques?duck.gif
 

 



Those are Salomon 1080's!   I call that my french style!  It gets better than that too!  Be good now, and I might find a few bumps to go through without poles for a video.

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