EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Skis, looking for the best of both worlds
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Skis, looking for the best of both worlds

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
Apologies for this being a redundant eastern skier's search for the perfect ski. I am certainly open to any recommendations on technique as well, realizing a ski can only do so much. 

I am 5'8 180ish.  Level wise, 7/8, need and want to improve.  Terrain wise I prefer on piste, if I am not carving I feel I have not skied the trail correctly.  I like speed, but confidence in technique and skis throws me at times.  For a point of reference, I am a Stratton fan, Ursa area specifically, all trails are blacks for 3/4, the last 1/4 blue.  I prefer short turns on the steeps, GS towards the bottom to let them run. Skiing there all day would work for me. 

I currently ski on Head Monster 75 177s that I have around 6 seasons on and Fischer RC4 SL 155s that I picked up used this season and have around 8 days on.  The Heads have been good, but on the steeper terrain, hard pack, not the best grip, a bit of chatter, a challenge edge to edge in the tight areas.  I have lots of confidence on them in the longer GS type with a less aggressive pitch, second half of the day when things have gotten crudded up, they blow through everything.  They do not like to go straight and flat, wobbly.

The Fischer's are money.  I was hesitant to go way short, but found a good deal, wanted to see what the buzz is all about.  Certainly confidence inspiring, can rip quick turns on the steeps and they hold whether packed, crust, or ice.  Something that I was nervous about was being able to lengthen my turns on these, not an issue, I do get slightest of chatter, probably could have gone longer.  My issue is the second half of the day when even on the coldest of days, snow gets piled up or pushed off.  I definitely loose a bit of confidence in these if I see a pile a snow in front of me, even if I am on edge, knowing under foot I will get caught up, even going straight on these, while they track nice, if I hit any thing other than a flat surface, I feel it big time.

So I guess I am looking for a ski that will hold on the hard steep stuff all day, quick edge to edge, comfortable in short or long turns, comfortable with speed, and won't shy away at the second half of the day piles of snow.  Does such an animal exist?

From the research I have done on Epic, the Atomic Nomads are a fan favorite, though the dimension underfoot discourages me for edge to edge performance.  

I certainly need to demo, can anyone offer a starting point?  Lenght?  Thank you.
post #2 of 27
 Dynastar Sultan 85.  Size chin to nose height.
post #3 of 27
 bascially those piles of snows are best handled not carving, but you have to carve all the time right?  basically dealing with those piles of snow usually require finesse than just arcing though them they actually require skidding to go though them quickly,

I would pick the new IM78 IMO in a 177cm. They are better than the old 75 in everyway. should fit the bill fine. before you ask me about edge to edge quickness realise that IMO there is noway in a blind ski test you could tell me about a 3mm difference in edge grip. also realize carving is the least versatile way out t of turning out there, and limiting yourself to on piste limits you as a skier. Learn to actually turn your boards every which way possible including trees, bumps and crud snow and not park and ride and then  nearly any ski can work for you in nearly any conditions. 
post #4 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Will check those out.  Thank you.
post #5 of 27
Basically the Fischers are money because they are race skis. 
Get yourself some race skis or near race skis in a longer turn radius, like Fischer WC RC. 
post #6 of 27
Thread Starter 
BushwackerinPA, I appreciate the info.  I agree that the differential in edge to edge quickness between the iM75 and 78s would be barely measurable.  I would be skeptical if there is much difference in edge hold (vs. and sl ski)  as terrain steepens and tightens, which at moment I am looking for a solution, which could be physical.
When I said snow piles, I certainly did not mean moguls, which I am confident in.  Call it crud that forms when skis are slid instead of carved, which I am not saying is right or wrong, and to your point, depending on the terrain, this is the only option.  These are surfaces that at 9 am begin as steeper groomers (crusty, icy, flat)  but at 2 pm have gotten crudded up and when on edge, the iM75s will blow through and the Fischers, which are 64 or 65 at the waist will get caught up in.  I am just looking for something that will go all day on the same trail. Call me boring.
Hit Smugglers 2 weeks ago, had booked a month before.  Rain didn't help on or off piste.

Thank you again.
post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Thanks Ghost.
post #8 of 27
 Myles - Check out VIST skis and Kastle skis, they both use a premium race like construction, but are not the one trick ponies that a race ski tends to be.
post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Ghost,
With a 66 underfoot on the WC RC's, how are they 2nd half of the day blowing through crud, still solid?

Thank you.
post #10 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Will do thx.
post #11 of 27
The problem with the crud piles is not the skinny waist; it's the small turn radius and short length.

I've only demoed, but I've demoed a lot of skis.  My skis include Fischer WC SC (like your SLs only softer and a bit longer), which also require a skilled pilot to navigate piles of crud at the end of the day.  I also own and have spent a few days blasting through crud piles with a 190 cm Volant Machete G that is about 68 at the waste.  The Machete G, at a twenty some odd m turn radius is great except its not really a short turner, and it doesn't have the race-ski-like ice grip.  After days uncounted on my old SGs which are only about 66 at the waist, I can attest that they don't even notice crud (or anything else short of big moguls, trees and rocks). They however make short turns a bit more challenging. 

Longer length and longer turn radius while keeping to a performance level at, or one step down from, a race ski level is what you need.  Still, unless you plan on going very very fast, you don't want to go too long in the radius.  Probably between 16 and 21 m radius is what you are looking for.    You will lose a bit of instant  effortless short turn ability with any increase in turn radius from your SLs, but that's the price you have to pay.  

Besides the WC RC, consider the Head SS speed or  Head i.speed. and the old Atomic SX11/SX12 (both good).  Basically look for a cheater GS or cross ski in a 175+ m length.
post #12 of 27
Thread Starter 
Ghost,
Great info.  I guess I got hung up on under foot dimension, not taking into account length and radius.

Thank you again.
post #13 of 27
 Width helps in the crud too. For sure. I was skiing last week in 6 or so inches of crud over groomed on 183 Rossi 9X racestock and could really feel the skis hanging up as they sliced into the crud compared to the wider (and shorter, more turny and softer) skis that I switched to later.
post #14 of 27
no_more_shoes 001.jpgAnother cool ski from Head to try is Supershape Titan.  like the Magnum only 78mm waist.  Has edge hold like the other Supershape and iSL but wider.  New for 2088.  The blue ones on the right.  You should be able to demo shortly.  note that other ski manufacturers have similar products for those of use die hard carvers who want a wider ski but dont want to give up our slaloms ...
post #15 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Thanks Mike.
I am guessing you have skied the Magnums as well, how do they compare edge to edge and busting through crud vs. the Titan?  
Thanks.
post #16 of 27
I have not skied the Titans, but I have skied the SuperShape, SuperShape Speed, and SuperShape Magnums back to back.  The SuperShape Magnum's performance is below the bar when it comes to edge-hold on ice-like surfaces at high g-forces.  The Speed has a very solid train-on-rails feeling and you can really crank them over, but is not a SL ski and needs some force to decamber into a tight turn, and probably not the best enjoyment in bumps.  The regular (ok Intelligent) SS is too shapely for deep piles of crud. 

The reason for choosing the Magnum would be to compromise for bump skiing ability, not knowing what ice is, or compromise between railing and smearing in deeper snow.  However if you like the locked-in feeling of a race ski in a hard turn on a very hard surface, you won't get it with the magnum.  With the magnum, you have to adapt, tip a little more to compensate for the give in the ski, and accept a lower absolute limit of grip.
post #17 of 27
Here are four skis I've spent a lot of time on this year (along with Patrolling I've been working part time in a ski shop and have gotten to ski a ton of skis this season).  I've skied all these in the East (and some at stratton).

1. 172cm Dynastar Contact 4x4 w/ PX14 binding (I like the beefier binding on this ski)-This is my go to ski here in the east-and for what you describe-mostly on-piste carving with enough versatility to explore woods and bumps this ski is the perfect tool (it's exactly what it's made for!)

2. 170cm Hart Pulse (we've been stocking these with the high-zoot vist speed lock plate and bindings-makes for a great demo!): If you haven't tried the new Hart Skis-do yourself a favor and find a dealer who has demos -some of the nicest skiing/ best made boards available. This ski has a 76mm waist and @ a 14m turn radius.  Medium Flex, very easy to carve in a variety of snow surfaces, good float  (on par or better than similar waisted skis I've tried).  Just an incredibly manageable and enjoyable ski.  Easier to ski off-piste than the Contact 4x4, and not quite as lively but still good snow feedback.

3. Rossi Phantom SC 87-Even though this ski pushed the fat side of the mid fat range (87mm waist), and it sports a slight early ride tip-I can't stress enough what an excellent front side ski it is.  Very easy to get on edge (though, yes it gives someting back against narrower skis...but not that much back!).  It's soft in the tip, firmer in the tail and good it eastern bumps and about as Ideal an eastern tree ski as there is.  This years Phantom line are the best skis from rossi in decades.

4.168cm  Elan Speedflex 14  A damp, powerful ski that will hold agreat edge on firm surfaces at speed, yet has enough 'real world' flex to handle Eastern off-piste (firm moguls and trees).  It's the most similar to the Contact-a little quicker edge to edge,similar crud busting quality, a little easier in the bumps, a little less float in deeper snow.  But on the whole, a great eastrn hard snow ripper-I've skied it side by side with a Progressor 8+ 170cm (probably it's closest competitor in terms of design and use)-and I vastly preferred the Elan.  But for some treason, this has been a hard ski to sell (Elan just don't jump off the shelf around here).

Where are you located, MylesPH???  There are a few demo opportunities in the region.

Liam
post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 
Liam,
Great info.  The Elan sounds right in my wheelhouse. 

I am just west of worcester, where do you operate out of.

thank you.
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post

Here are four skis I've spent a lot of time on this year (along with Patrolling I've been working part time in a ski shop and have gotten to ski a ton of skis this season).  I've skied all these in the East (and some at stratton).

1. 172cm Dynastar Contact 4x4 w/ PX14 binding (I like the beefier binding on this ski)-This is my go to ski here in the east-and for what you describe-mostly on-piste carving with enough versatility to explore woods and bumps this ski is the perfect tool (it's exactly what it's made for!)

2. 170cm Hart Pulse (we've been stocking these with the high-zoot vist speed lock plate and bindings-makes for a great demo!): If you haven't tried the new Hart Skis-do yourself a favor and find a dealer who has demos -some of the nicest skiing/ best made boards available. This ski has a 76mm waist and @ a 14m turn radius.  Medium Flex, very easy to carve in a variety of snow surfaces, good float  (on par or better than similar waisted skis I've tried).  Just an incredibly manageable and enjoyable ski.  Easier to ski off-piste than the Contact 4x4, and not quite as lively but still good snow feedback.

3. Rossi Phantom SC 87-Even though this ski pushed the fat side of the mid fat range (87mm waist), and it sports a slight early ride tip-I can't stress enough what an excellent front side ski it is.  Very easy to get on edge (though, yes it gives someting back against narrower skis...but not that much back!).  It's soft in the tip, firmer in the tail and good it eastern bumps and about as Ideal an eastern tree ski as there is.  This years Phantom line are the best skis from rossi in decades.

4.168cm  Elan Speedflex 14  A damp, powerful ski that will hold agreat edge on firm surfaces at speed, yet has enough 'real world' flex to handle Eastern off-piste (firm moguls and trees).  It's the most similar to the Contact-a little quicker edge to edge,similar crud busting quality, a little easier in the bumps, a little less float in deeper snow.  But on the whole, a great eastrn hard snow ripper-I've skied it side by side with a Progressor 8+ 170cm (probably it's closest competitor in terms of design and use)-and I vastly preferred the Elan.  But for some treason, this has been a hard ski to sell (Elan just don't jump off the shelf around here).

Where are you located, MylesPH???  There are a few demo opportunities in the region.

Liam

 

Is that still considered mid-fat? When I think mid fat, think around 90-105. Give or take.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

The problem with the crud piles is not the skinny waist; it's the small turn radius and short length.


 


Ghost, have you tried a Prophet 90....in crud?  I was looking at getting this ski for a #2 ski for soft snow, but it has a relatively small radius.  I was wondering how this ski works after the first hour in the cut-ups!  I think it's fairly stiff, which would help, but.....
(My other candidate is likely a pre-2010 Gotama, maybe softer, longer radius than the P-90).
Edited by Simplemind - 2/13/10 at 4:26pm
post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post





Ghost, have you tried a Prophet 90....in crud?  I was looking at getting this ski for a #2 ski for soft snow, but it has a relatively small radius.  I was wondering how this ski works after the first hour in the cut-ups!  I think it's fairly stiff, which would help, but.....
(My other candidate is likely a pre-2010 Gotama, maybe softer, longer radius than the P-90).
 

No I haven't skied any skis that wide; they don't demo them too often around these parts.  The problem with wider (the few I have tried) for me is the edge grip on ice/hardpack just isn't there. 

Sure, the wider skis might be better in crud, but why bother?  You don't have to give up race-ski ice grip just to ski piled up crud.  You might want a fat ski for deep snow or powder days, and that's a good reason to get one.  I'm sure some of them will handle crud, but none of them will handle ice like a race ski.

They don't have the ice grip, but as an example of a skinny ski that does fine in crud, I have skied my skinny-waisted Machete Gs one afternoon through piles of cut up snow after over a foot of heavy snow fell during the day, after skiing the SCs in the Morning.   The SCs were a little tricky to manage through the tracked-fresh-tracked-out-piled-up snow, but the Machete's completely erased any thought of any difficulty.  They made skiing the crud very easy.  Differences were 190 cm long platform to help absorb speed changes and soak up bumps, stiffer and longer turn radius.  I've also skied my skinny old SGs through everything.  They are a little harder to manage, but they hold on ice and they don't notice crud, and they're not fat.
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

  Differences were 190 cm long platform to help absorb speed changes and soak up bumps, stiffer and longer turn radius. 

 

OK, you said it again!  Longer length and radius + stiff = better crud performance.

Again, I'm looking for a western soft snow ski that won't bury it's nose in the powder, but I can ski after it's tracked out, which is most of the time (I'm not an early riser).

 
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplemind View Post


 
My bad, I wasn't paying enough attention and still had the OP in mind. You probably don't give a crap about ice grip!   In that case I"m not the best source of info, my last outings in real snow were on the longest Dynastar GS skis I could rent, or if too cheap on my SGs (which really, really weren't designed for powder by the way). 

Check out the recent review thread on Gotamas from those who have recent experience.
post #24 of 27
I am scarily close to you in terms of skiing, and I ski the Rossi CX80's in a 170. They are 80 underfoot, but are definitely a solid carver. They handle crud well, and are a great, fun ski. They are definitely great for the second half of the day, and are solid in steels as well. They are not great in the glades, but manage well. Also, this is NOT a bump ski by any means. The tail is too wide and the ski is too stiff. Overall, great ski, and is worth a look.
post #25 of 27
I see quite a few race coaches on those, for all the things they need to do on race day and other uses on and adjacent to the course. Bet they freeski them as well, an ex-racers pleasure ski.
post #26 of 27
Thread is drifting to the hijack range...

Around these parts-the company reps and the shops generally still put 75-85 mm waisted skis in the mid-fat range, though, I agree, considering the grand landscape of skis and ski design it's a term that has lost much meaning. 

I skied the Rossi CX80 last year-it's a lot of ski-carves well, I assume it would blow through eastern (and most western) crud, though I only had it on firmer snow.  Not a bumpski, not very relaxing, I too have noticed ex-racers and race coaches on the mountain seem to like this ski.  I think it's a good ski, but not for most folks.  That's where I like the Contact 4x4 over the CX80-similar power (but not as much), but more versatility (especially in bumps, trees and the ocasional tight places). 

Crud skis...if we're talking that really deep, sticky stuff that forms on the sunny faces of the mineral basin of snowbird a few days after a storm..I'd say yeah-a longer, stiffer and wider ski (wider and longer anyway) is the way to go (or rockered, etc). 

But, if we're just talking clumps of older un-groomed snow that forms into piles over varied surfaces (prevalent in the east...and at most western resorts, too) I'd prefer a ski that carves well, and holds a tipped edge well through mixed surfaces.  I'd want it medium stiff (wood core, probably some metal in a laminate-straight side-wall lay up) and somewhere in the mid 70's to low 90's mm waist width depending on ski design and side cut.  And I think, that was the kind of ski for the kind of skiing the original poster was looking for.

So many places to ski and so many ways to ski it-I guess that's why there are so many types of skis.
post #27 of 27
I'm a dissenting view on length in crud. If a ski is truly long for the skier, (like 4" + over your head if you have normally proportioned body), the variable snow of crud conditions will exert deflecting forces at the tip and tail. and the longer the ski, the more strength required to counter those forces as the forces have greater leverage against your boot. For crud I ski a stiff, damp, 100mm ski with about 26 to 31 meter radius that is a few inches over my head, 'cause I'm short. Crud skis have metal sandwich construction, usually.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Skis, looking for the best of both worlds