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Bad Skiing, bad tuning, bad wax selection, or bad wax?

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
Hello Everyone,

I have been tuning skis for about 5 years.  Not very long, but long enough to get a pretty good feel.  I am tuning for three racing kids and one Masters level racer.

Last weekend I tuned for -13 C with a RH of 65% on old snow.  The Swix Wax Wizzard told me to use LF4.  I did.

My kids race at the Nancy Green level, so I am not ultra concerned about the waxing, but I do give it some thought.  The kids did a warm up run on the skis, and right from the start they said the skis felt slow.  Then all three kids did much worse then they usually do.  People were actually comming up to me and asking what happened.

At first I thought, just not their day.  Then I thought maybe I chose the wrong wax.  After revisiting the condition, LF4 seems to be the right wax.

What is the possibility of a bad batch of wax?

I bought a bulk kit of LF waxes from Reliable Racing.  I have not used it much because I am usually on CH of HF.  At Christmas I had them on LF8 for a race and they also complained the skis were slow.  No complaints when they are not on the LF wax.

Thoughts?

Thanks for any input./Doug
post #2 of 16
Did you give them a really good scrape and brush (and did brush have other wax on it?)?
Was the snow temperature and air temperature difference out of the ordinary?
Did wax behave as expected on the iron at the usual iron temperature for that wax?
post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
 LF 4 is harder than most wrt to scraping and brushing.  I did get most of it off.  I roto brushed with a hard brown and then polished.  There could have been some other wax on the brush, but by the third set of skis I would think it would mostly be LF4.


What is a good way to clean the brushes?


The forcast was for -13 and it was pretty bang on.

WRT wax behavour, I think CH4 is tough to deal with the LF4 behaved similar.

Thanks/Doug
post #4 of 16
When it gets that cold in air temperature, isn't that about the point that the snow is just pretty grippy anyway?  I'm thinking in F, of course, but that's single digits for us and I'm thinking the snow in the shady areas might have been closer to zero F at which point is fluoro any help at all?  At least here in MT that's dry snow. 

I'll bow out now to the real experts.
post #5 of 16
Another thing to consider is boot flex.  At very cold temperatures the boot is a lot stiffer then normal.  Perhaps that effected their skiing?
post #6 of 16
Thread Starter 
You are right wrt to the Floro not being for the cold.  I have found that when its real cold -20 C and below the strait CH4 is great.  This was just behaving a little odd.

Its good to feel confident that you have the right wax on when your in the starting hut.

Thanks/Doug
post #7 of 16
So what you're saying is, your gut told you CH4, but the chart said LF4, you went with the chart and it didn't work out?

I'm also wondering, since I never use flurocarbon waxes because they dry out your bases over time, if that is an issue here?

"Over time, using high fluoro wax continually will dry out your bases. If you use them often, it is imperative that you clean your bases after each use by waxing with a hydrocarbon wax. "
post #8 of 16
The skis felt fast before this?


Sounds to me like you could have used a graphite or moly additive.    
post #9 of 16
Interesting that at 65 relative humidity that the wizard suggested LF.

It looks like Toko suggests HF moly and HF blue & Briko-Maplus HP3 Blue (HF) for the same temp range, snow type and humidity.

How's the base structuring?
post #10 of 16
Thread Starter 
 Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your replys.

Boot flex is quite good.  I have just been through the whole issue of boots too stiff and that issue has been addressed.

I am aware that floro dries out the bases.  The skis always get a wet scrape and a double wax of CH after the LF and HF.

The base structure on the the one ski was just done, the other two need it.

My gut said CH4 or CH5 and the wizard said LF4.

Thanks again/Doug
post #11 of 16
Did you measure snow temp at the time of the event? Was there fresh snow? What was the weather like? Sunny? Cloudy? Windy? ???



Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

So what you're saying is, your gut told you CH4, but the chart said LF4, you went with the chart and it didn't work out?

I'm also wondering, since I never use flurocarbon waxes because they dry out your bases over time, if that is an issue here?

"Over time, using high fluoro wax continually will dry out your bases. If you use them often, it is imperative that you clean your bases after each use by waxing with a hydrocarbon wax. "

 




Quote:
Originally Posted by dougperry9898 View Post

 Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your replys.

Boot flex is quite good.  I have just been through the whole issue of boots too stiff and that issue has been addressed.

I am aware that floro dries out the bases.  The skis always get a wet scrape and a double wax of CH after the LF and HF.

The base structure on the the one ski was just done, the other two need it.

My gut said CH4 or CH5 and the wizard said LF4.

Thanks again/Doug
 

There have been fairly vociferous discussions about how flouros aren't bad for the bases in other threads. One that said flouros weren't bad was a WC wax tech. Kind of a sidetrack, but I'm curious. Where did you obtain your information that it was bad?
post #12 of 16
No matter what popular belief is, high fluoro waxes work just fine even with cold ;) In WC high fluoro waxes (with proper powders on top) are used 99% of time, even when temperatures go to range between -15 to -20c. But it's true, that it gets tricky to wax in such conditions. And for most cases, Swix is not really perfect wax when it gets this cold.
PS: Another really important factor with such low temperatures is proper structure. Considering most of my WC background is in xc skiing (where wax, structure and ski selection plays even bigger role), I have probably a bit different view to all this then rest of people here. But at least for xc, worse thing are exactly described conditions. It's pretty hard to get fast cold skis. With temperatures in range from 0 to -5c, everything goes. With temperatures around -15c things get more complicated, and proper structure and proper p-tex plays huge role. So personally I doubt there's anything like "bad batch of wax", but it could be bad structure on base, or even bad/wrong work on edges (yeah this makes big difference too with such snow conditions).
post #13 of 16
I know the conditions you were waxing for last weekend.  My own choice for 2 pairs of race skis & my own skis (just coaching) for QA was CH4 + Kuu graphite.  This combination worked quite well. 

I'm using more CH than LF this year, but I have found that both benefit from mixing in a little bit of graphite wax for the cold days like we had around the Escarpment last weekend.
post #14 of 16
Above quote from http://www.edgewiseskitunes.com/articles.html?ref=11&sp=5

Not the first time I'd heard it, heard it for years, just a place it was written down for me. 
post #15 of 16
Typically, an HC base prep wax should be on before the LF, HF or Perfluoro waxes to protect the base from 'drying out'.
post #16 of 16
Thanks for the link and feedback.

I'm lucky. In CO and particularly at Ski Cooper with its all natural snow, I race almost exclusively with Toko System 3 red, so I only have flouros in my overlays, when needed.
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