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Early weight transfer - Page 4

post #91 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I agree CT that some of the best use an early weight transfer but these fine skiers don't interrupt their body's flow when they use an early active weight transfer. Unless of course the do so willfully for a specific reason. Sadly, the less experienced skiers watching that occur assume it's a new technique secret and they go out and do that move, or their interpretation of that move, everywhere and during every turn. That's when the park and ride syndrome shows up in these less talented skiers. What they overlook is their own inherent movement errors that the better skiers simply don't use. What errors? Read on...

The best skiers are among other things more fluid and subtly dynamic in everything they do -- that's part of why they're the best. 

One reason some developing skiers who do figure out how to carve well using this movement pattern, through a Flamingo drill or similar, may resort to it too much is because it's a rush.  Many skiers misuse their poles, too, big deal.  Teach someone to terrain unweight and sometimes they'll run around like a puppy looking for places to do it.  I think that's cool.
post #92 of 117
Ingemar Stenmark would love this thread.
post #93 of 117
This all started with a quote about a movement a skier suggested was "new".  
post #94 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

Ingemar Stenmark would love this thread.

Yeah, why isn't Ingemar posting here?
51955896.jpg

JF
post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

This all started with a quote about a movement a skier suggested was "new".  

Yes, the suggestion that it was new was out-there.  In the spirit of airport time and common ground I think everyone can agree on that.  Whether the work of a savant or of a highly developed but misdirected internet talent, out-there for sure.

If Rusty wasn't so tactful this thread might never have been.  No good deed goes unpunished.
post #96 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Well my friend, it will always happen that a leader will stand alone with his/her opinion for a while and as such I am just very comfortable where I am. 
 

Im happy for you and taking in consideration you are only here for learning the language I should not really pay much attention to what you say but a couple of things gripes me. For one, reading from your web page about what you do and how you teach I think you are not qualified to speak for the whole Austrian ski team. You want to be different. Your approach is different. More holistic. Nothing wrong with that but for discussions here we need to go down on detail level. Kind of the limitations of this kind of communication.

Here in this thread it has been suggested that early weight transfer cna be a good thing. You have suggested it never is. One thing that Im not sure everybody understands is that the weight transfer can happen before the transition. This means that if we look at a turn in the traditional way from transition to transition then there is no weight transfer at the beginning of the turn because the weight is alredy on the outside ski. Then there is a weight transfer later on in the turn as the outside ski is relesed and the weight transfered onto the inside ski. There doesent have to be long and early pressure in the turn only because we started our turn with the weight on our outside ski. It depends on many things such as speed, turn radius of skis and stiffness etc, how tight we are turning etc. But if we want to use the skis to make round turns and use the side cut to our benefit then we should start to pressure the skis at the moment most appropriet. IMO the word weight transfer in itself is kind of dated when we are talking about modern carving skis.
post #97 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post




Whether the movements are "done in German" or not, the movements are there.  And, again, it's not park and ride, and you watch some of the best technical skiers in the world and you will see it this clearly quite often.  (More subtle early weight transfer, without the visible lifting of the old outside ski, is even more common, particularly in GS).   

It's done for a couple reasons, at least, including in some situations allowing for a smoother, straighter turn entry without the shovel of the old outside ski biting. 

Good simple skiing.  Good for average recreational skiers.  I find it remarkable that something this basic, and self-explanatory, and obvious, causes people to spend a couple pages trying to assert that it is a negative that somehow controls the rest of the turn and sets up park and ride, or denying that it's done by racers, or maybe then belatedly acknowledging  it's done by racers but, by implication, only after immersive German-language training. 







 
No I get you now, had you not displayed the video I would have never guessed you were talking about this move, because it is way more for us than just a simple weight-transfer. So you are right, absolutely I support that move.
post #98 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




Im happy for you and taking in consideration you are only here for learning the language I should not really pay much attention to what you say but a couple of things gripes me. For one, reading from your web page about what you do and how you teach I think you are not qualified to speak for the whole Austrian ski team. You want to be different. Your approach is different. More holistic. Nothing wrong with that but for discussions here we need to go down on detail level. Kind of the limitations of this kind of communication.

Here in this thread it has been suggested that early weight transfer cna be a good thing. You have suggested it never is. One thing that Im not sure everybody understands is that the weight transfer can happen before the transition. This means that if we look at a turn in the traditional way from transition to transition then there is no weight transfer at the beginning of the turn because the weight is alredy on the outside ski. Then there is a weight transfer later on in the turn as the outside ski is relesed and the weight transfered onto the inside ski. There doesent have to be long and early pressure in the turn only because we started our turn with the weight on our outside ski. It depends on many things such as speed, turn radius of skis and stiffness etc, how tight we are turning etc. But if we want to use the skis to make round turns and use the side cut to our benefit then we should start to pressure the skis at the moment most appropriet. IMO the word weight transfer in itself is kind of dated when we are talking about modern carving skis.
Look TdK6 I am not the Austrian Ski Team, just a member of it. 
In any ways, I have no time right now nor am I interested in a fight, it is not my nature and maybe I am just used to the fact that my word has a lot of meaning amongst our colleagues. And you are right, I always dig further and find different ways, that is one of the many tasks a coach has to do.
post #99 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post



No I get you now, had you not displayed the video I would have never guessed you were talking about this move, because it is way more for us than just a simple weight-transfer. So you are right, absolutely I support that move.
 

One of the great parts of the web is the easy availability of video...makes it much easier to convey movements, especially across different languages!

Just for eye-candy, here's a different use of early weight transfer in a couple turns, plus some plain old jump turns etc.  Wish I could find some older Tuckerman footage or similar, definitely not a "new" movement as suggested in the precursor to this thread!  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmye5GCeX5k

more recent eye-candy, but same non-racing, ungroomed context, more than 10 degrees. :)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxv6stwuZdE
post #100 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1mtcYuyjTw&feature=related 

Seconds 40-42 of the YouTube (not of the clock).  We could do this until we ran out of video, because the arguably technically soundest racers do this more often than most, but it's very common for just about everyone.  It's skiing.  Personal opinion, but I think both the skier in this vid and the one in the clip linked previously are pretty fast.  And in context the movements discussed make them faster. 

For the average skier speed is obviously not the main goal, though the feel of a cleanly running ski or snowboard (or bike for that matter) is a great thing.  But as noted this is also a good drill, and also good skiing for average folk, too.

 

Maybe my eye is just untrained, but could you please explain what is happening at time 40-42, and in which turn during that time?
post #101 of 117
 CTKook, great examples of ILE!  
post #102 of 117

In this thread and many other threads skiers refer to the "Park and Ride". As I move through my learning process I think it is inevitable that as I incorporate new skills I will also pick up unwanted movements from time to time. But I'm pretty aggressive about seeking instruction and taking videos on the mountain. Hopefully, after my spring trip I can post a couple and ask you guys for some analysis. Sometimes the terms on this forum get a little confusing. And park and ride is one of those terms. What does "park and ride" look like? Is it always a bad movement or can one elect to park and ride?  Is it the result of poor technique or poor tactics? I'll do a bit of searching but does anyone know of a link to a video demonstrating park and ride skiing?

 

JASP, what is a "white pass turn"? 

post #103 of 117
White pass turn

Post #2 by JohnH gives a clear explanation.
post #104 of 117
Blandry, The variation of a white pass turn I was talking about is otherwise known as a weighted release. In the dark past of skiing the skis were unweighted to facilitate an edge change,or pivot, or "transition" to a new turn. Others may disagree but the reason it's not neccessary on modern skis is they are simply not as stiff along their length. So just getting them flat to the snow, or nearly flat to the snow allows us to release the edges without all the extra up or down movements.

A late weight transfer would occur after the edge change, and early weight transfer would occur before it. Or is it before the edge release and after the edge re-engagement. As we look at the actual start of the turn many ideas get thrown out there. Some talk about neutral and perpendicular to the snow, others talk about the edge change, and others talk about the direction change regardless of the edge angle, or stance relative to the snow. So which is correct? Well all and none to be perfectly honest. It's all relative to a specific situation and as such cannot be appropriate outside of that situation. TDK offered a "traditional" but dated definition of when a turn starts because he used the term" transition". To some it's a half a ski length long  but to others it's two thirds of the turn. Add timing, intensity, and Variations for route and it gets even harder to throw out one place as a universally accepted beginning and end of a turn.
So don't get discouraged as you read all of this. Try to hear the message and not get too hung up on the definitions, or even who writes the message. My post was aimed at a higher level coach / teacher. In tha,t I used a term or two without defining them. My bad. It's almost funny in a way because, I'm alway preaching about a descriptive phrase having so much more power than terms and jargon but I didn't follow my own advice. Jargon and terminology represent most of the mis understandings that occur here and my goal is to communicate complex ideas as simply and as jargon free as possible. I obviously failed. 
post #105 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post




Maybe my eye is just untrained, but could you please explain what is happening at time 40-42, and in which turn during that time?

The video is taking too long for me to load right now, but roughly second 40.25, left ski is lifted and weight transferred.  Specialized context for the general sequence discussed. 
post #106 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

In the dark past of skiing the skis were unweighted to facilitate an edge change,or pivot, or "transition" to a new turn. Others may disagree but the reason it's not neccessary on modern skis is they are simply not as stiff along their length. So just getting them flat to the snow, or nearly flat to the snow allows us to release the edges without all the extra up or down movements.

 

I would like to argue that its has nothing to do with stiffness. The reason we dont need to unweight to facilitate a transition to a new turn is the shape of the ski. Now we only need to tip the ski and it turns. The funny thing is that in the dark days this was a very common move only the turn radius was bigger. It was primarily used by racers and especially DH racers on flats.

I totally agree with you that there are no absolutes when it comes to definitions. We just need to be a little bit creative and communicative. Try to see the similarities and not get hung up on the differences.
post #107 of 117
I just can't understand any of this!  I'm so confused I don't know what to do! 

I do believe when you feel it, you know!

I have no idea how I ski, but I do ski, and it feels good to me!
post #108 of 117
No TDK, A wider tip and tail would actually hang up more if the flex stayed the same. This in turn would make unweighting more necessary, not less. Atomic SL 204 blue sleds featured a wide tail which made releases more difficult than say a Dynastar CDM with a narrower tail. Dynastar called it pin tail technology back then. And it was marketed as an easier to release feature.
post #109 of 117

I think you are both right, TDK and JASP. If you make arc-to-arch turns with shapes skis you do not have to unweight the ski (at least on moderate terrain). However, if you want to pivot/skid during the transition, the shape does not help, but the softer bend does.
The reason that the ski is softer today is the shape; to get the ski to bend/carve when edged. So to have modern soft ski with no shapes is probably unusual. I don't have any experience from the development of e.g. DH skis, but I would guess that they have similar softness today as before.

Bottom line, is a modern soft, shaped ski easier to skid/pivot than an old stiff straight ski? Personally I don't think so, but it probably depends on the ski.

post #110 of 117
jasp - Im quite puzzled by your statement that the modern carving ski works like it does not because of the shape of the ski but the stiffness. The flex will offcourse have its say in the equation but the revolution was the shape. A r10m sl ski has more shape to it than a r18m cross ski. Stiffness might be the same. I used to ski with soft skis back in the 80s. I started with the Dynastar Omeglass and worked my way through their line of soft flex expert skis for over 10y. Still the ski was not a carving ski and the turn radius in an edge locked carve could not be compared to my stiff FIS SL skis I have today.
post #111 of 117
My FIS SL skis are torsion stiff, but not bend stiff
post #112 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I think you are both right, TDK and JASP. If you make arc-to-arch turns with shapes skis you do not have to unweight the ski (at least on moderate terrain). However, if you want to pivot/skid during the transition, the shape does not help, but the softer bend does.
The reason that the ski is softer today is the shape; to get the ski to bend/carve when edged. So to have modern soft ski with no shapes is probably unusual. I don't have any experience from the development of e.g. DH skis, but I would guess that they have similar softness today as before.

Bottom line, is a modern soft, shaped ski easier to skid/pivot than an old stiff straight ski? Personally I don't think so, but it probably depends on the ski.

Right you are.  Arc-to-arc, tip ski left - turn left, tip ski right - turn right, unweighting totally unnecessary, whether ripping along 40 years ago on your GS skis or making SL turns today.  Release the edge?  We don't need no schtinking releases!  

Steering, braking turns, and other enjoyable sliding games, is a different kettle of fish.  If you just stand on a ski on a flat surface with skis pointed across the fall line and the edges not engaged, the fact that the bindings are near the rear of the ski means that the skis will start to rotate and seek the fall line.  People who do not ski arc to arc can use that to get an initial steering angle before tipping the ski.  Once the skis are no longer pointed in the direction of travel, the edge(s) is (are) used to make the turn, in a similar way as the one edge of the outside ski in a snow-plow turn (if anyone is old enough to remember what that is).  It's a different way to ski.  Reqiring edge-release at the end and beginning of turns isn't an old-tyme vs modern thing; it's an arcing vs not-arcing thing.

But wait there's more.  The shape of modern skis combined with their flexibility means that simply tipping the ski over and weighting it decambers it and puts enough steering angle onto the front of the ski to initiate a turn, whether you are arcing or not.
post #113 of 117


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Right you are.  Arc-to-arc, tip ski left - turn left, tip ski right - turn right, unweighting totally unnecessary, whether ripping along 40 years ago on your GS skis or making SL turns today.  Release the edge?  We don't need no schtinking releases!  
Exactly!

But wait there's more.  The shape of modern skis combined with their flexibility means that simply tipping the ski over and weighting it decambers it and puts enough steering angle onto the front of the ski to initiate a turn, whether you are arcing or not.
Exactly!

 
post #114 of 117
Exactly wrong! This is a perfect example of erroneous thinking leading to erroneous conclusions. Skiing isn't about just turning right, you also have to turn left. You can't do that if you never release your right turns. I know you guys are kidding but c'mon stop with the silly statements already. Release skills are an integral part of every turn.

TDK, which is it?
A."I would like to argue that its has nothing to do with stiffness. The reason we dont need to unweight to facilitate a transition to a new turn is the shape of the ski. Now we only need to tip the ski and it turns."

B. The shape of modern skis combined with their flexibility means that simply tipping the ski over and weighting it decambers it and puts enough steering angle onto the front of the ski to initiate a turn, whether you are arcing or not.
These two strong statements seem to be a bit incongruent.
 
The bottom line here is that the skis are different. Shorter, softer and wider. All three contribute to the reduced need for unweighting movements in the transition.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/17/10 at 10:38am
post #115 of 117
Wasent this the speed thread .... no relese needed for going straight.... Allright jasp, Im not going to say anything about relese. All Im saying is that the shape of the modern ski has changed skiing since we now only need to tip our ski to eather side to make it turn. Ski bends and decambers. Skiing like that produces horrible skiers but thats all that is needed. Tip and turn. Pressuring and relesing is annother story.
post #116 of 117
post #117 of 117
Tip left, turn left, tip more left, turn tighter, decrease tipping angle, tip less left, turn less left, reduce tipping angle all the way to zero and begin tipping right, tip more right, tip less right, reduce tipping angle all the way to zero and through until it is tipping left..repeat as needed.  No unweighting required.
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