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Fear and Trembling - Page 2

post #31 of 109
Me...a vouyer???? Well, we'll see about that...
post #32 of 109
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by irul&ublo:
Me...a vouyer???? Well, we'll see about that...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

post #33 of 109
Learning how to fall properly will help subdue some of that fear (at least the paralysing kind).

However it is fear which keeps us in check and prevents us from doing stupid s***.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 08, 2002 06:28 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Mike B ]</font>
post #34 of 109
I dont know, with all the jerks skiing out of control sometimes theres a good reason to be scared. LM, you used to live in New York, right? Ski street wise, like any a$$$ is some New york mugger who your going turn to dust if they go near you.
had to bring this back on topic. First the dude wines that his personal life is no ones business, then the thread turns into a discussion group about his sex life. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
also that dumb crack about fear management classes. Are we at the point where we dont understand anything if it isn't written in Spanish? Seems to me as if she's saying those self help pep talk things don't work .
But LM can be a bit much sometimes!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 08, 2002 11:34 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Bethany ]</font>
post #35 of 109
VK's first post was right on, LM. Read it again. Weren't you the one who mentioned pink polka-dotted elephants? If you say to yourself "FEAR!!!!" when you venture out of the comfort zone, guess what you'll "feel"?

Neuro-linguistic programming. A valid phenomenon that has enabled many unscrupulous people to exploit chumps, I mean credulous people with money. Also used legitimately in education and psych.

I can completely change my day by what I tell myself I'm "feeling" when I get out of bed.

Let's play a little game: FEAR acronyms.

False evidence appearing real.

Face everything and recover.
post #36 of 109
Thread Starter 
Gonzo, true about the N.E. slopes. I was only half kidding when I said in a different thread that getting comfortable on a black at Okemo will enable me to ski a green at Fernie!
But I think, in the course of one day, there is only a finite amount of MENTAL energy I can put out, so no real learning is going to happen.

Bethany, if I ever get to the point where I have to ski with that kind of attitude, I'm giving the whole thing up, and BTW where have you been, girl and how's school going?

Nolo, you think that an instructor saying to someone that they should consider taking up golf is a "right on" response, yet in other threads, you question why people don't take lessons. This gets back to my original point, that there is an empathy gap between students and teachers on this issue. If a student senses that an instructor feels the kind of disdain that you and VK are describing, they will not return to class.

I also find it interesting that with the exception of Kee Tov, the better responses in this thread came from people who were NOT teachers!

BTW, I don't recall ever saying anything about pink polka dotted elephants! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #37 of 109
Oops, my bad, LM.

I meant this post:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From your posts it is not hard to deduce that the only thing that keeps you from becoming a better skier is your head. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
post #38 of 109
"Don't think about pink polka dotted elephants."

What did you think of?
post #39 of 109
LM, When I get into a situation that I feel is over my head I concentrate on my first couple of turns and that is usually enough to allow me to focus and push the fear out of my body. When I control my fear/apprehension the reward is exhilaration.
post #40 of 109
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VK:
.... A friend of mine and a coach, I respect the most, often has the following advice handy: "Maybe you should pick up golfing..."


On the internet this can sound very sarcastic, but I am certain that VK meant it as a joke.

Still, I am surprised how many instructors and pros are not aware of how scary it can be for an adult to learn to ski. They are clearly out of touch with this and I suspect that many skiers who learn to ski as kids never experience the kind of fear that Lisamarie is describing.

In the end, I would agree with gonz that building your skills is the only way to conquer most of the fear. I don't believe that neuro-linguistic programming is the right approach. Mental gymnastics are not very effective unless the person has some training, practice and has experienced the power of the mind. Even then, positive thinking will not provide the skills that you don't have. At best, neuro-linguistic programming will help ensure that fear does not take away from your skills.
post #41 of 109
When I first started skiing again, I had no skills.

I began to develop skills as I focused on training, not skiing. I literally would spend all day practicing balance. I still do it, but now I can practice balance on groomers or catwalks. Mental note: I'm way overdue for a day on green runs.

But what really improved was my confidence. As my balance improved, my confidence would really improve.

So I just think that if skiers were taught balance more and skiing less, they'd experience the same results.

Easy for me to say. Try telling someone who only skis 10 or so days a year (which happens to be the largest percentage of skiers) to spend a few days practicing balance and they'll tell you...Well, lets just say it's not too good for tips.

Not so fast cash breath. If skiers started to see rapid breakthroughs in their skiing, because of practicing balance, uh, I think that adds up to repeat customers.

HH sends me letters all the time (3 or 4 a week) from customers who echo what I'm saying. They're focusing on training, not on skiing. As a result, they're experiencing breakthroughs in their skiing they never thought possible. And, most important, they're developing the confidence to ski "the rest of the story".

I've read the responses here. Everything, ultimately leads back to teaching. Traditional ski instruction does not give skiers credit for the ability to learn balance.
post #42 of 109
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Still, I am surprised how many instructors and pros are not aware of how scary it can be for an adult to learn to ski. They are clearly out of touch with this and I suspect that many skiers who learn to ski as kids never experience the kind of fear that Lisamarie is describing.


To this remark I would say, every instructor who want's to build some of that empathy should try to learn a new sport from time to time just to get the "feel" of what it's like to learn a new and sometimes scary sport. Or at least to remember what it's like to be a beginner again!
post #43 of 109
dchan, quite true! I took up ww kayaking 3 yrs ago, picked it up very quickly (after conquering fears), and in my 2d season helped teach newbies. There is an incredible amount of fear that some folks have as adults learning new sports, especially those that require skill and self-confidence.

In other words, I have no compassion for the adult who fears taking up tiddly winks or the slinky.
post #44 of 109

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I've read the responses here. Everything, ultimately leads back to teaching. Traditional ski instruction does not give skiers credit for the ability to learn balance.


I think it depends on the instructor. Our SS and yes we are a PSIA shop, Puts a great emphasis on Balance and in the few classes I've shadowed and taught, as we ski with the customers/guests we have given lots of credit for good balance and have worked a lot on balance skills.
post #45 of 109

Your fear is what pays my mortages\kids school fees etc. I deal mainly with the general, 2 weeks a year, "I want to breakthrough" skiing population.

These are my rules for managing fear.

1. Make the client comfortable and create a safe learning space. (remove pressure)
2. Relate and reflect the clients life experience to the new learning experience.
3. Pace the student to maintain a feeling a safety and empathy.
4. Teach solid skills that match the clients fitness, learning style and goals. i.e. no claims of shortcuts.
5. Preach patience and individuality in learning pace.
6. Be honest about the goals and learning time phase with the client.
7. Emphasis the environment and looking back up the hill to see where we have been.
8. Practice, practice, practice, practice.
9. laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh
10. Oh wow we skied it down that.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 09, 2002 10:43 AM: Message edited 1 time, by man from oz ]</font>
post #46 of 109
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Traditional ski instruction does not give skiers credit for the ability to learn balance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SCSA--I agreed with everything you said, right up to--but not including--that last statement! I guess you're defining "traditional ski instruction" as instruction that doesn't teach balance, but I don't know where you're getting this information. And I know few, if any, instructors who fit this description. Some may not teach it WELL, but that's an individual thing--not the fault of "traditional ski instruction."

Actually, I DO know where you're getting your information--from someone who selfishly and deceitfully wants you to believe that only HHe and HHis system teaches balance. As you've never hesitated to point out, you have little personal experience with "other" instructors and systems. This is not your fault, and not a problem, but it disqualifies you from making statements like the one above. So stop making them! They're nothing but inflammatory. They are false and way over-generalized. They're offensive to virtually every dedicated instructor on this board. And they detract from your otherwise worthwhile posts!

For the record (why is this so often necessary?) PSIA has "officially" recognized BALANCE as the most important, most fundamental, most essential "skill" in all of skiing--the master skill, the mother of the other skills (rotary, edging, and pressure control). Since the PSIA "Skills Concept" (TM) was introduced over 20 years ago, a very simple diagram laid this important point out graphically and without any question or room for debate.

Here is the classic Skills Concept (TM) graphic, that every PSIA instructor has seen time after time. It is the foundation for everything PSIA teaches, including the Center Line (TM) model, the "3 Steps to Success" (TM), and the new "Stepping Stones" (TM)concept. What do you suppose that big circle around everything else, labled "BALANCE," indicates?

And here are some quotes that support the graphic:

"It should be...understood that balancing ability is the underlying prerequisite for any action taken on skis."

"The development of the sense of balance and improvement of the student's proficiency at balancing on a moving base while executing other movements to turn, go straight, and so on thus is really the fundamental aspect of teaching skiing."
--John Wagnon, ATM--INTRODUCTION TO TEACHING, 1983, PSIA, Denver, Colorado

I could continue quoting "traditional" resources on the importance of balance and teaching balancing virtually forever!

How it happened that HH failed to grasp this himself during his brief time with PSIA is a question that baffles me still. It goes right along with his misunderstanding of appropriate use of the wedge. But he should speak ONLY for himself. HE, himself, may not have recognized or taught balance at some point in his career, but that certainly should not imply that other instructors around him were similarly afflicted. And it CERTAINLY should not imply that any organization or "system" was at fault for those few instructors who may have failed to see this enormously bright light!

So SCSA, my friend--your technical understanding, and presumably your skiing, are improving every day. Your posts are increasingly informative and worth reading. I am not trying to pick a fight--it's the last thing I want to do. I'm only trying to set the record straight. You are at the point now where you can speak for YOURSELF, and provide value to the forum. Let Harald speak for HIMself--and defend his statements if he chooses. You're too good to remain in his shadow of misinformation forever!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 09, 2002 11:58 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #47 of 109
Better go ski with him again, Bob. He's been quite reasonable since your outing together, but I see he's backsliding some.
post #48 of 109
Nope. Barnes is right.

I have zero experience wiht Traditional Ski Instruction and I'm really not qualified to make anything other than a personal observation.

Making a blanket statement like I did wasn't accurate.

But here's what is accurate.

More and more I'll stop and watch instructors teach skiers. Sometimes I follow behind them. I ski a lot -- 24 days so far. To date, I have never seen one instructor teaching or leading any kind of balance drill.

So I'll revise my statement. "In now my 3rd year of skiing, 144 days and counting, I have never seen one instructor teaching or leading a balance drill".

I'm sure some here, Bob including, emphasize/teach this all important concept.
post #49 of 109
Thread Starter 
Balance IS essential! As I'vesaid many times, when I was in my marathon training, 2 hour weight training days, I tried to learn skiing, but could not even stand up for a moment on my skis.

Balance is taught in traditional ski instruction. Have to tell you a funny story. This past weekend, our teacher was deming something that LOOKED like she was telling us to traverse on one ski. It was noisy, so I could'nt hear her. I said, okay, I know that drill. Problem is, I can do it standing on my left, but not my right ski.

So we head down. Its a crowded slope, so I'm not really watching anyone. It seems like we are doing this for a long time, about a quarter of the trail. I start to get very worried about how everyone else seems to be doing this SO much faster than I am. When I finally catch up to my group, they're cracking up. The teacher tells me that she wanted us ti feel AS IF we could lift one ski, but not actually lift it. Then, she said "BUT HEY , if you can do what you just did, you don't have much to worry about!"

Great points Gonzo about teachers picking up new sports, so that they can empathize with beginners.
post #50 of 109
All right--I can't disagree with you there, SCSA. No where have you seen me claim that typical ski instruction takes place at a consistently high level in this country--quite the contrary, unfortunately. But again, the fault lies not with any "teaching system," but with the industry that fails to reward instructors sufficiently to maintain any high level of consistency. Many instructors have had little or no training from ANY "system"--PSIA, PMTS, or otherwise. THAT is a bad situation!

What aggravates me so is that a real solution to this problem lies in ENCOURAGING people to demand lessons from QUALIFIED, well-trained instructors. Telling people that a "system" is to blame, when all evidence points to the contrary, is counter-productive toward this end!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #51 of 109
Here's my philosophy after 17 years of continually improving my skiing skills.

Each ski season, no matter what your ability, ski LOTS of trails that your comfortable with and can really enjoy. Each ski day, ski SOME trails that push your limits somewhat. And on the days that your mentally tough and are well warmed up ski a FEW trails that really push your limits. Preferably in the AM when your fresh. If your not having a great day physically or mentally, don't push it, better ski days are ahead.

Before you know it what seemed unbelievable steep and difficult a few years ago, are now just a simple easy trail which you can just enjoy and to which you'll not give a second thought! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now, I chuckle when I ski down some of the trails that 10 years ago would have totally freaked me out.

Give it time and LOTS OF MILES on your skies. You'll be amazed.
post #52 of 109
I need to make the point that if one has a limited knowledge of skiing balance drills then it would be hard to recognize them being taught on the hill.

It is true that balance is not often taught as a pure balance drill. Many of the drills\exercises I teach include balance as a core base but not as the focus ..., which IMHO is really what skiing is about.

SCSA we need to ski soon as I am started to get a little paranoid that you are out there watching me!!! "SCSA is out there" Just joking mate. Hey when I think about it that is probably not a bad thought anyway. The public is always watching on the hill. I remember that every day when I hit the hill for “showtime”.

post #53 of 109

And you're at the Big Show.

See? You need to hookup with me so you'll know when I come around the corner with my neato handycam.

"Smile for the world, oz".
post #54 of 109
Good points, OZ--both the "being watched" and the idea that balancing exercises are not always recognizable as such.

Balance on skis--or lack of it--is a result of movements we make. ANY exercise that involves movement, thus challenges and improves balance. And many exercises that focus solely on balance can be quite static--I've seen many instructors spend lots of time working on "the position" of balance, thinking they are developing balancing skills. They aren't!

And many other exercises that are designed purely to develop balancing skills actually involve or create POOR skiing movements. That's not to say that they aren't worthwhile sometimes, but lifting a foot, skiing on the inside ski, skiing on one ski, and so on hardly represent "normal" skiing! Indeed, as we've discussed at length, lifting the downhill ski and balancing on the uphill ski, prior to initiating a turn, forces the skier to move uphill, in the wrong direction for the turn. And it also removes the very important option of leg steering for that ski we're standing on--we can only turn it with (or against) the upper body.

Furthermore, as I've described in the recent thread "Teaching Tactics/Skills," sometimes the best way to dramatically improve "balance" is to focus directly on TACTICS. "Balance" with the brakes on is quite different from balance with the hammer down!

Witness also the many testimonies, in the topic about the "Slow Line,"of people who've "instantly" discovered a renewed sense--and reality--of balance simply by discovering the tactic that I call "skiing the slow line fast."

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

PS--uh, in case you're wondering, "hammer down" is American for "pushing on the accelerator--hard"!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 09, 2002 12:44 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #55 of 109

encourage the demand for qualified instructors but here in lies a different problem. How do us newbie instructors get our practice teaching? (just kidding) there will always be people to teach. but pressure for the trainers to certify their instructors would be helpful. Not all of us are passionate enough to just go get our certs and training.
post #56 of 109
Hi Dchan--good question! I hope my comments do not seem as a slight to talented and dedicated new instructors. The answer, of course, is to make sure that new instructors receive sufficient training--at the expense of the ski school--to ENSURE that they are on the right track, and to ensure that they can do their jobs consistently to the required minimum standard.

As it is, new instructors are usually thrown right into the "fire," with minimal training, and what they often teach is beyond reprehensible. It can be a tragedy, a disservice to the unwary customer! And, of course, if we DISservice the customer, it's not exactly good business, even if it doesn't "cost" the resort much in instructor salary....

When SCSA sees an instructor teaching at a resort, it MUST be a good lesson (although again, "good," or at least "technically sound," may not always be obvious to the casual onlooker). It must be so good that he ends up wishing HE could join in and share the experience. Sadly, that is not often the case.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #57 of 109
Thanks BobB

As a passionate skier first and wanting to share and project the best experience, I know that Bob's comments were not necessarily pointed at me but I had to make that point. I have been pounding on our SS trainer to get me the books, Take me on clinics, When I'm not selected for line-ups I try to find another instructor to ski with or a class to shadow. Rather than just go free ski all the time. I hope it shows in my lessons. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ January 10, 2002 12:42 PM: Message edited 1 time, by dchan ]</font>
post #58 of 109
I agree with developing balance and feel it is the most important part of skiing. I worked for a PSIA ski school where our Tech. director emphasized working on balance. It is just about impossible to teach people new skills when they are fighting to stay balanced. This can apply to a beginner or a more advanced skier on terrain that is too difficult.
post #59 of 109

Isn't what you say and what you preach as proprietary and closed as "the other folks"?

On one hand you beat the drum all damn day, "No, that's wrong". Then, you go on to say, "Here's what's right"! What am I missing here?

Two, how could skiing on the inside foot be wrong? Isn't that what the banana turn is? Isn't the banana turn a PSIA thang? Hmmm.

Then, what about von Grunigen, who's the world champ. Uh, isn't he the one whom the "von Grunigen move" was named after?

And what about the American champ (can't recall the name) who said that he got better when he, "began to stand on his downhill ski"?
post #60 of 109

The other folks teach lifting the downhill ski as the beginning to get skiers to lean downhill. If you've ever really studied what they teach and you haven't, you'd know this.

"Lifting is learning, lightening is expert skiing".

Once a skier is taught to lift, the next step is not to lift, but to lighten. So where's this moving uphill that you're talking about?

I'm not an instructor, but I've been studying the other folks for going on 3 years now. I've never once been told to "...move uphill". It's the opposite. The whole point is get a skier to lean downhill.

You accuse me of not knowing the facts? Hey man. You need to do some fact finding yourself, cuz you're way off when talking about (directly or indirectly) the other folks.

Your whole thing is that you're stuck on lifting the ski. Then you skied with me one day and made all kinds of judgements. Read the rest of the story.
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