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First attempt for self MA

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Hi everyone!

Here is my attemt to analyse my progression from the last season.  Both videos are on easy part of a blue run.

Please comment on it... are my conclusions right...



Thanks in advance

post #2 of 26
Maybe some inclination (leaning to the inside) in the first video, but the issue is a backseat and a park-and-ride issue.  Get out of the back seat and start using your joints a little more.  A-frame could be an equipment issue or something else.
post #3 of 26
Sorry to say Pete, but in my book there is nothing wrong with inclination, so I think you have worked away a non-problem. In fact, I think it is absolutely necessary to have inclination and strong extension at the entry of the turn. Angulation comes later. Turning with only angulation and little flexing/extenting will give you problems when it gets steeper.
post #4 of 26

Looks to me you have compensated for the earlier lack of angles by making a quick lateral shift of the pelvis across the skis rather than forward and diagonally into the turn.

 

I'd like to see that movement become more gradual and more forward.  Point your belly button at the apex of the next turn as your feet turn more than the torso in the finish of turns and then rise to release the edges.  Try to gradually extend the new outside leg to decrease the fold in the fabric of your ski pants, then gradually recrease the fabric during the finish.  A little one-two-three count for both the extension and flexation.  Think of keeping your torso upright and letting the feet go out to the side while at the apex of the turn.

post #5 of 26
Hi Pete,

You have good skills working for you already; edging, upper/lower body separation, pressure on the outside ski. You aren't as off balance as you may think you are.

Relax. Look at your arms and shoulders. To keep your hands that high, you have to use muscles in your upper body. This will make your upper body stiff. Let the hands drop so that your upper arms are comfortably near your side and your lower arms are at 90 degrees to them pointing forward. Relax.

The 2010 transistions look forced. The skis will get over to the other side on their own if you let them. Its what they want to do. Pressure on the skis should build progressively from the transition to the apex of the turn or just beyond the apex. Then pressure should be reduced progessively until the transition. KB is advocating an up-unweighting which is fine, but different than what you appear to be attempting in 2010. You seem to be going for a retraction turn; you flex your legs to release the edges and take the pressure off the skis. This is a fine technique as well. If you use this type of turn, let the pressure release progressively rather than abruptly. As you are extending and flexing progressively, your edge angle will progressively increase and decrease, too.

KB also mentions pointing the belly button. This is good. I call it outside focus. It helps you to maintain pressure on your outside ski, which is important.

The A-frame can be reduced by activating your inside ski more. This is easily done by considering your new inside leg as the starting point to getting your skis on edge in the new turn. Focus your attention to doing the same thing with your inside leg that you are doing with your outside leg: tipping after transition. If you start your turns by actively tipping your inside ski, the outside ski has no option but to follow. You shouldn't use a lot of pressure on the inside ski, but you do need to get it on the little toe edge. So tip the inside ski, the outside ski will tip, too and let the pressure build on the outside ski by progressively extending the outside leg. Let the inside leg flex to allow your body to move towards the inside of the turn, while you maintain your outside focus.

I think the order of things for you to work on is:
 

  1. Relax.
  2. Use progressive pressure and edge angle as well as progressive release of pressure and edge angle.
  3. Outside focus.
  4. Activate the inside ski.

Work on one thing at a time and as you master one (you don't have to think about it to make it happen), move on to the next one.

A drill you can try is to raise and lower you body, keeping the torso upright and in an athletic stance, by flexing and extending your legs. Do this up-down movement 3 - 4 times in a turn, being progressive and continuous in the motion. It would be like you were making GS size turns in a mogul field and extending and flexing to keep your skis on the ground as you pass over 3 - 4 moguls per turn. This will help you relax and move your body throughout the turns. Once you are comfortable with it on a flat groomer, try it in the bumps. You will have to be flexible and strong at the same time for this to work. Most importantly, you will have to relax to eliminate the stiff and static body position of the 2010 video.

Here are some threads that discuss topics that relate to transistion and pressuring:

Hip Rotation in second half of turn

RACING A TRAIN THROUGH THE TRANSITION FROM ONE TURN TO THE NEXT

Transitions?

 
 
Help me get faster in the GS course.

You have a lot of good things going on in your skiing. Work on being fluid in your motions and being relaxed. Feel the pressure build and release. Make it a dance. Left ski pressure builds, left ski pressure releases, right ski pressure builds, right ski pressure releases, ...

Good luck and keep us up to date on how this works out. I like the side by side video; nice job.
post #6 of 26
Thread Starter 
Thank you all guys for the reply.

I'will agree with MR that I have to work on progressive pressure. I think the best way to acheve it is using one-two-three count as KB suggested. I use abrupt and strong pressure from the beggining because in this way I'm feeling more confident in speed control. According to transition. I started using "retraction" (even without knowing there is a term for it ;-) since I managed to get some decent angulation. In one moment I feel that at certain speed if I stop resist the presure and relax my legs and knees I even didn't have to move my body to the next turn because my feet are going there by them self. I didn't try to force my pelvis in the transition... at least my subjective feeling is not like this.

I hope if I magage to build the presure in more progressive way will help to achive more fluent transition.

The hands .... yes very high.. have to work on that... ;-)

Can you suggest some drills for activating inside leg? At the moment when I try to tip it more I'm ending with too more weight in my inside leg or leaning into the turn as in 2009 clip.

@MR glad you like the side by side approach in the editing... pitty that I don't have 2009 clip facing the camera
 
post #7 of 26

Hi Pete. I think that before you try drills with active inner leg you need to be more dynamic. As MR says you should extend into the turn and flex when you exit. It should all be a fluid motion. The body is never static. At the moment you seem to have a very quick transition and then you stand most of the turn in a static position. Try to flex exaggeratedly between the turns to get the feeling. Try going into a full tuck and then extend progressivlly unitl you are almost fully extended at the apex. This might feel ridiculous but I have found it very effective on the juniors I coach. I will also prevent too early hip angulation.

When you get this feeling you can practice active innner edge by making long turns and stepping between outer and inner ski, and lifting the ski should be primarily in the tail in order not to have a back-seat position.

Don't take the critique literally, you have a lot of good things going as well.

post #8 of 26

A-framing isn't as bad as you may think it is. Keeping pressure on the outside ski is much more important than activating the inside knee, which is why the knee was last on my list for you. Come back to this thread when you have tried being more dynamic and utilizing progressive pressure changes.

Things will change radically for you if you can just be more dynamic which often will make subsequent suggestions we have made moot. You'll may need a new set of exercises that what we have already advised.

MR

 

post #9 of 26
Thread Starter 
Ok guys I'm convinced ;-) I'll start working on fluid progressive transition and body dynamics first. A-frame will be left for future development. I'll keep you posted with my progress.
post #10 of 26
Caveat: I know I'm wrong according to majority in the following post.

I don't think that *gradually* extending the leg should be something to strive for. I'm afraid that you'll end up with slow transitions.

For my own skiing I've come to realize that if I absolutely need to go a certain path, it's more effective setting an edge early with half bent knees and then continue to straighten the leg. However, for freecarving it feels much better getting the leg almost straight and then put the pressure. I can take much more edge pressure on a straighter leg than a much bent leg.


Here's just 2 random clips from the tube (searched "ski carving"):
Slow transitions (not all of them thou). Looks tensed to me. I personally don't like doing the transitions like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71289ISvtQk

I think it looks like this guy is waiting a little more for the leg to extend before really setting the edge. Looks more relaxed to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEsI4DLfAmc&NR=1

*Flamesuit on*

I think both your current and your previous transitions and turn enter/exit are quite all right as they are.
If I was in your clothes this is what I'd work on:
You know when you are through the transition and just have set your edge. Then you enter the waiting mode right?
What I would do is at that time from that stance just keep adding edge angle until apex or right after apex.
I usually think about it like I want to get the knees closer to the snow and the ass further in. The knees are more important to getting the stuff turning and then comes the ass to balance it all.
If you fall inwards instead of carving tighter, my advice would be to ski faster. Just straightline for a while until the first turn.
post #11 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

For my own skiing I've come to realize that if I absolutely need to go a certain path, it's more effective setting an edge early with half bent knees and then continue to straighten the leg. However, for freecarving it feels much better getting the leg almost straight and then put the pressure. I can take much more edge pressure on a straighter leg than a much bent leg.
 

Let the flamewars begin... Just kidding. There is nothing wrong with having legs straighter in transition when free-carving, it just means your CoM will raise more from the ground. YOusave a lot of energy. However, I have a feeling that if you extend too early, i.e. already in transition, it is more difficult to have aggressive carving angles later in the turn. (it is also slower but for free-carving it does not matter) 
The spectum of transitions is fluid, and I guess you are more suggesting an "over" than a "through" for free-skiing, which is fine, and really a matter of personal preference. Choose a style and try to adopt it basically.
My personal opinion is also that powerful extension give you a broader range of slopes. It works great in flat AND steep. Straighter legs does not work when it i flat. Well it works, but your not going to look powerful.

The feeling of gradual extension is also very different. On my Dobermann Race-stocks the extension last for mayby 0.3 secs, which makes it feel quite aggressive rather than gradual. In fact you have to push really hard in order to finish the extension in time. On my 27m it may take almost up to a second.

For free carving, I like this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtMHcLgUFo4&feature=PlayList&p=5E000CD411C58907&index=4
post #12 of 26
I forgot to look at the clips.

I actually think that you have the logic reversed in these clips. The second one shows a very fluid extension between the turns. Look at the very flexed inner leg at the end of the turns fluidly extending to becom the new outer leg. 

The firs clip show much more static skiier, he seem to pressure the inner leg in order to do the transition. Quite a weak extension into the new turn.

I think you might be mixing slow with gradual.
post #13 of 26
This is me on a flat slope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOU0vrAE5wA
I do mistakes and is in no way perfect, but I think it works. Maybe I could look more powerful with a lower transition but I've realized that this is much more relaxing for me.

I like that clip you posted and I think that he's completing the extension before setting the edge. He's even airborne as he's extending.
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I forgot to look at the clips.

I actually think that you have the logic reversed in these clips. The second one shows a very fluid extension between the turns. Look at the very flexed inner leg at the end of the turns fluidly extending to becom the new outer leg. 

The firs clip show much more static skiier, he seem to pressure the inner leg in order to do the transition. Quite a weak extension into the new turn.

I think you might be mixing slow with gradual.

Well, as a student of yours, how does one know that slow doesn't equal gradual?
When is it so fast that it's not gradual anymore?
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I actually think that you have the logic reversed in these clips. The second one shows a very fluid extension between the turns. Look at the very flexed inner leg at the end of the turns fluidly extending to becom the new outer leg. 
 
Yes but when is the pressure on the edge really set?
The first guy sets the pressure gradually and early imo.
post #16 of 26

I think that the second skier reaches the apex slightly before the fall-line and the first one reaches the apex after the fall-line. Agreed that the first skier gets a pretty straight leg early, but this is what makes him LESS gradual.

 

I think the first skiier has the same tendencies as Pete in some of his turns.

 

post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post




Well, as a student of yours, how does one know that slow doesn't equal gradual?
When is it so fast that it's not gradual anymore?

Carl, I am not a ski-teacher, I'm just a coach in a small club in "Norrland"
Anyway, good question, but I think that slow and fast are independent to gradual. You can be gradual in both a slow and a fast turn.
When skiing gates the turns are almost always fast. I guess its a matter of terminology. sorry for any confusion.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

This is me on a flat slope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOU0vrAE5wA
I do mistakes and is in no way perfect, but I think it works. Maybe I could look more powerful with a lower transition but I've realized that this is much more relaxing for me.

I like that clip you posted and I think that he's completing the extension before setting the edge. He's even airborne as he's extending.
 

Your a good skier Carl, not doubt about that. In this flat terrain I do think that you could edge more without loosing speed by having more extension though. It will be even clearer, in child-slope hills. We do a lot of drills in the "Child-slope". I believe that if you cannot execute a good turn in flat terraing you cannot do it in steeper either. The easiest terrain is mid-steep, when the speed is adapted to the turns. A good drill is to try to incrase the speed in very flat terrain by powerful extensions into the turn.

I'm not sure what you mean with setting the edge, but you should always be extended when the "CoM catches up with you"

Even WC racers become airborne when it is steep.
post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

I'm not sure what you mean with setting the edge, but you should always be extended when the "CoM catches up with you"
 

I mean putting pressure on the edge.
What do you mean by "CoM catches up with you" :D
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post




I mean putting pressure on the edge.
What do you mean by "CoM catches up with you" :D
I mean that when you enter the turn phase the CoM has direction outwards in the turn, and in the apex you need to change that direction.
post #21 of 26
What is the Apex by your definition?
Does the Center of Mass have a direction? Do you mean that the bellybutton and the pelvis is moving outwards?
post #22 of 26

Apec is the point where the turn radius is mininal, which normally should coincide with maximum pressure.
With CoM direction I mean the direction it is moving. Look at the great picure MR did in the hip rotation thread.

post #23 of 26
hmm - in a round turn, the turn radius would be constant. The dictionary defines apex as either the highest point or the point of culmination. Looking at a skiers tracks from above the snow surface and facing the side of the trail, the tracks of a single turn would be shaped like a hill and the apex would be the top of the hill. Thus apex of the turn is when the skier is in the fall line.
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

hmm - in a round turn, the turn radius would be constant. The dictionary defines apex as either the highest point or the point of culmination. Looking at a skiers tracks from above the snow surface and facing the side of the trail, the tracks of a single turn would be shaped like a hill and the apex would be the top of the hill. Thus apex of the turn is when the skier is in the fall line.

I agree with this definition of apex. Turn radius being constant isn't practical or even necessarily desireable. A smooth line in the snow is whether it be a trough of a 'perfect' carve or a 'swoosh' from a skidded turn.

Regarding gradual, I've been saying progressive, not gradual. If the turns are quick the progressive pressure will build quickly towards the apex of the turn and reduce progressively, too. If the turns are long, the pressure will build and release more slowly, but still progressively.
post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

hmm - in a round turn, the turn radius would be constant. The dictionary defines apex as either the highest point or the point of culmination. Looking at a skiers tracks from above the snow surface and facing the side of the trail, the tracks of a single turn would be shaped like a hill and the apex would be the top of the hill. Thus apex of the turn is when the skier is in the fall line.

Rusty, the first part of this statement is dead on.  The bolded part, is wrong.   That only applies when the turn starts and finishes at the same angle to the falline.  
post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post


Regarding gradual, I've been saying progressive, not gradual. If the turns are quick the progressive pressure will build quickly towards the apex of the turn and reduce progressively, too. If the turns are long, the pressure will build and release more slowly, but still progressively.

Well explained, MR.  

For skiers needing to learn to engage cleanly, slowing down the 1-2-3-4 application of edge angle and pressure helps. As edging skills improve the speed of the 1-2-3-4 can be increased, with the initiation staying just as clean.  
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