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Wanted : Good Drill for getting forward - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Originally posted by FastMan:
Develop skills and build confidence in easy/non threatening environments. If the student is focused on the fear they can't focus on the task. Skills can't be developed under such circumstances, confidence will not grow, fear will not dissipate.

Take baby steps and ease Nervous Nellies along. If you grab them by the britches and toss them in they may never come near the water again. Sometimes a little push while standing at the brink is what's called for, but you'd better be right if you choose that course.
That's exactly right! I know for a fact -- my wife told me the very same thing...


I recently had a similar experience, where *I myself* lost it when she balked at what I thought was not that steep. But to her it was steep enough to trigger the fear and partially lock up. I could see her over a 1 km away, coming down the hill, making two very short turns and stopping. Needless to say I was not very patient. Thank God she had the sense to turn her radio off! I got lucky.

Patience is the most desireable quality any instructor should have. Fear has many forms -- even former racers will shy away from the poles as they are no longer used to bashing them...
post #32 of 53
josseph: Big E, heh, my wife and your wife should get together.

Well thanks guys for leaving me out of that party!

Seriously, I am not sure there are many ways to conquer one's fears. Irrational fears are well addressed via theraphy, but fear of skiing down a steep pitch, when you are already afraid of heights, is not all that irrational. In my experience, the only way to conquer this is to gradually work your way up the skill and terrain ladder (as FastMan indicated earlier). And instructors should be able to detect real fear. When somebody has solid skills on intermediate terrain and completely breaks down in more advanced terrain, there is a good chance that fear plays a strong role.
post #33 of 53
Fastman's elaboration of my post is precisely what I would have said had I said it better. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #34 of 53
Did fastman just say

"The beter you get, the better IT gets?

post #35 of 53
Originally posted by FastMan:
How about something a bit out there. The most immediately effective method I ever used for getting students into a perfect balanced through the foot stance was to have the group bring out their cross country touring skis and ski parallel turns on blue runs with them.

There's no cheating with this one, either your truly balanced or you don't stay on your feet long because there is no boot tongue or back to correct or lever against. Even had my group running gates.

This drill takes the unbuckling of the boots drill and ups the ante.
Are you sure you are not my instructor?

I get to do this on my tele-skis....
First time even hopping on the magic carpet was a struggle.... now I can do good sort of Ok parallels on them
post #36 of 53
Originally posted by josseph:

I think my wife might be among this group. On very gentle slopes she exhibits decent technique. When caught off guard when the terrain steepens, she becomes totally psych'ed out. She then sits way back, reverts to a totally defensive wedge pointing straight down the hill, and unable to do much. Various instructors, probably seeing the apparent lack of progress in her responding to their teachings about getting forward, had suggested some equipment changes (e.g. heel shims, ramp angles, remounting bindings forward) to bring her back forward. Personally, (and because I know my wife), her core issue is psychological. Of course, recognizing the core issue still doesn't present a solution. Ideas, anyone? (Perhaps I should post this in a new thread).
Yes - send her for some lessons with my instructor....
Seriously - THAT was me.... I had to learn good enough technique to trust myself on my skis.... that meant not being scared witless by well meaning people trying to 'expand my boundaries' ... yes I may have had better techhnique already than those skiing there - but I needed MORE to feel safe....

Ask Ant or Oz - both have skied with me recently & I have not been accused of being BACK lots for a while now... - I just needed to be reassured & allowed to develop trust in my body & STRETCHED at MY rate....
post #37 of 53
Originally posted by FastMan:
If it's a fear thing, if a good stance can be achieved in non threatening situations, then the answer is really very simple: replace fear with confidence through skill development.

Fear thresholds differ for everyone. For those who possess a low tolerance for risk pushing them to overcome their fear can conversely end up just pushing them further away from their threshold. Better to relocate fear thresholds than try to just bull through them. By improving skill levels what was terrifying before suddenly becomes non threatening and fun.

Develop skills and build confidence in easy/non threatening environments. If the student is focused on the fear they can't focus on the task. Skills can't be developed under such circumstances, confidence will not grow, fear will not dissipate.

Take baby steps and ease Nervous Nellies along. If you grab them by the britches and toss them in they may never come near the water again. Sometimes a little push while standing at the brink is what's called for, but you'd better be right if you choose that course.
OK - you are my instructors clone! [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #38 of 53
I suggested increasing the Delta angle (raising the heel) based upon the original query/description that describes a skier with their hips back and bent over at the waist.

See skier #3 and #4

I have made mention of the fact in the past that I "fixed" my stance issue by raising my toe piece 5 mm higher than my heel. I was skier #4 and needed to get my spine angle to more closely match my tib/fib angle

See Diagram
post #39 of 53
Practice some turns on inline skates during the off-season. There is no backseat on these and I think you will feel remarkably centered come next season.
post #40 of 53
You might also try "boot skiing" or ski boards.
post #41 of 53
Ski without poles. Cant be done in the backseat.
post #42 of 53
I learned some things this evening that might shed some light on the difficulty some of us have getting forward. Bridger Bowl Mountain Sports School sponsored a clinic in Bozeman with master boot fitter, Brent Amesbury, of Seattle. In assessing a person's fore-aft alignment, which is what we're affecting in getting forward, he looks at the rotation of the shoulders. If they are rotated slightly forward, then fore-aft alignment is okay, but if the shoulders are rotated back at all, there is probably a problem with the amount of bootboard ramp, binding ramp, heel lift, forward lean of the cuff, or any combination of these variables. If the upper body (above the hips) is at all inclined back, it's a cinch that the lower body is inclined too far forward.

Too much forward lean of the boot shaft, too high a heel relative to the toe (also called equination, because it makes the foot into a horse's hoof), too much forward pitch of the bootboard and or binding can all cause the pelvis and shoulders to tip back to get in some kind of balance.

Another possible cause of difficulty getting forward could be too much volume in the boot, with the foot moving fore and aft. If this happens, the tendency is to home in on the back of the boot. Amsbury advises that we put our ski stockinged feet in our boot shells without the liners, flex forward like we're skiing, and check the clearance between the heel and the shell: for racing, 1/4-1/2 inch; for high performance, 1/2 inch; for comfort, 5/8 to one inch. More than one inch of clearance and your boot is too big. It is always better to err to the smaller rather than the larger size, because it is more effective to create space than to try to take up space in a ski boot.

It was a good clinic. Kudos to the mountain school for sponsoring it.

BTW, Brent thinks Ron LeMaster's The Skier's Edge is the best book available on alignment.
post #43 of 53
Another helpful thing I heard in the boot clinic is to line up the ischial spines (the two leading points of the pelvic bone) with the outside edges of the boots to find your neutral stance width.
post #44 of 53
to the husbands. Have your wives ski with a women's clinic or group. Some are for a weekend, some for a week. I skied with a group this winter that met every Saturday and they were very supportive and I feel like the group and the instructor really helped me advanced my skiing.
post #45 of 53
Originally posted by skimore-workless:
Hi, I was wondering if someone could recommend a good drill for getting forward on the skis. I can get good shin pressure on the tongue of the boot when turning and I am able to lay down nice railroad tracks but I still feel like I am hinged at the waist. It's hard to describe, but I feel like I am forward but only because I am bent over. This tends to move the butt back. This position works for racing GS but for everday skiiing in varied terrain, it is not optimal. Plus it puts a strain on my back muscles more than my quad muscles when I am hinged forward. People tell me I look fine and can rip nice arcs but it just doesn't feel right for some reason. I think I need a drill to get my hips more forward. Any recommendations ?
SPEISS That is all.
post #46 of 53
Four suggestions:

1. Former gold medalist Debbie Armstrong suggests, instead of thinking "hands forward" think "elbows forward." For me, that has the natural effect of pulling my hips up and forward, instead of dropping my butt back.

2. Make sure you have a lot of forward flex in your boots. If you don't, some boot fitter like Sure Foot can probably work on your boot to increase the forward flex.

3. If you have adjustable bindings like Atomics, which allow you to move the whole binding up and down the ski, move the bindings (temporarily) toward the back of the skis. That actually moves your weight back, but to get the balance right, it forces you to really commit forward, getting the feel of how you should ski with the binding in the correct spot. Once you've got the feeling, then move the bindings forward again and try to re-create it.

4. Practice on easy trails. When it gets steep the reptile brain screams lean back away from danger, and it's harder to get way forward.

Good luck.

(said the guy looking at a picture from his own last ski race, where he wasn't far enough forward and actually had the tip of his inside ski up in the air at the gate. Sigh...)

post #47 of 53
Rather than leaning forward with the upper body or bending the knees to mash the shins against the boot tongues, pull the forefoot toward the shin (dorsiflex). Experiment with the latter depending on the terrain's pitch.
Check your binding mounting - are you back of the sweet spot?
Get your alignment, fore-aft and lateral, assessed by an expert who should take measurements of ankle and foot range of motion. See nolo's stuff too, above. Read some of Pierre's posts on plantar vs. dorsiflexion as they apply to fore-aft balancing.
Good luck.
post #48 of 53
Originally posted by Biowolf:
Ski without poles. Cant be done in the backseat.
Just watch me! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #49 of 53
Learned this one last week. (Thanks Mike Hafer and Ted Pitcher)

Find some easy wide open groomers leave your poles behind.
Up hill hand on your hip or butt. Downhill hand extended towards the apex of your turn. Push (downhill) with the up hill hand and try to reach down and touch the snow with the downhill hand try to put that hand down near the apex of your next turn.

Then try reaching farther down the hill. Do it progressivly, try switching earlier or later and see what it does. Make the push for your up hill hand more upward so it makes you stand taller. etc..

Do it for a while, in different variations and then take that same movement and apply it with poles in your hands.
post #50 of 53

this sounds like the drill Ali Ross suggests in his 'skiing Clinic' book, where in order to commit he has you push your uphill thigh and hip downhill and into the turn. But I may have misunderstood you as there is a transatlantic difficulty with the word 'apex' which we take to mean 'top' and seems in the US to be the extreme width of the turn (where you are in the falline facing downhill assuming that is your direction). I believe it is a term used in US motor racing?

So could you clarify the role of the downhill hand? thanks.
post #51 of 53

Sounds about the same. the uphill hand pushes you into the turn forcing a commit down the hill. The apex or maybe a better way to think of it is the belly of the turn in most cases would be about half way between the fall line and your direction of travel.

The downhill hand and the uphill hand move progressively at the same time. using the downhill hand more in front moves your CM forward and into the new turn. With the downhill hand more to the inside it moves your CM farther inside.

The idea is to move forward and to the inside progressivly and if you start switching hands earlier and earlier in the turn you commit to the turn faster.
post #52 of 53

What did you think of Mike H.? As a non-instructor I think he's a pretty skier and makes it look effortless and fun. He's also a nice guy. I hope he makes the National Demo Team!
post #53 of 53
Someday I aspire to ski that effortlessly.

Until then Hack away!
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