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Hip Rotation in second half of turn - Page 2

post #31 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


As DH skiers need to turn aggressively they always stand up. They extend.

Except possibly Svindal.
post #32 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Just to be clear, I am not discussing counter in general. The upper body should normally have counter, I am talking only about the hips.

Let me ask you this.  What advantage do you think you can achieve by countering from your torso or shoulders instead of your hips?  Other than for the sake of appearing the way some people expect you to appear?  Why bother countering at all?


Quote:
- The inner foot will be better balanced becuase of the lesser separation. If e.g. the outer ski slips there will be less sever balance problems.
- You can put more pressure on the inner leg without getting into the backseat. This will help the comma shape of the turn.
- Less A-frame
-It will drive the tips more into the snow.

On all of those points, says who?  Where is the evidence?


Quote:
Don't get me wrong though, I started this thread becuase I would like to hear that it is OK to use hip counter, and I think that we have "consensus" for that in the thread.

GOOD!  

All the best skiers I see on WC are using counter, from the hip. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Countering at the hips so that you can bend forward at the waist (towards the outside of the turn) to angulate is not really angulation.

what?   

Angulation is simply the act of counter-balancing the upper half of your body outwards over your outside ski in order to maintain balance while obtaining the edge angles you need through inclination.  Whether you are countered or not does not make it any less to be angulation.  Countering just makes angulation easier and more effective because you can bend more to the front then to the side.  This is why some people don't even like to use the word "angulation" anymore, because the real meaning of the skill is lost as people argue over the appearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
The reason the coaches Jamt are refering to are telling their skiers not to counter is because they dont understand whats it all about. They are just repeting something that someone told them at a coaching clinic or something like that.

Clearly  
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
The big talk in instruction and coaching a few years back was no tip lead. I had this argument with this one coach about tip lead two years ago. I said it was a result of tipping into the turn due to our leg structure and he said racers have no tip lead ever. Last week the same coach was coaching and he said that we should actively try to push our indide foot forward and that it was a new thing. Lesson learned, this coach does not know anything about skiing. He was wrong then and he is wrong now. Gruber shows it clearly. Massive angulation and tipping inside the turn, not much hip counter but tip lead. Herman lots of hip counter and tip lead. 

If coaches are trying to eliminate counter in order to eliminate tip lead, then they are or were in error.  I agree.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
IMO you should not use upper body or hip counter to compensate for tipping or angulation early in the turn.

I'm not sure anyone is saying that counter is used to compensate for tipping or angulation.  Rather counter is used together in conjunction with tipping and angulation to achieve more effectiveness.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 The reason is that you should try to be anticipated and create a bit of torque driving your skis in the upper C. As your skis come arround and face down hill in the fall line you should be squared up and as your skis turn through the lower part of the turn you automatically ski into counter if you are letting your upper body and hips remain facing slightly down hill or at least towards the outside of the turn. What you gain here is that all the way from the top of the turn you are making a counter movement. At the top of the turn in a way from a negative value. 

This is certainly the case for certain types of situations but not all.  Certainly not in arc to arc skiing.  Anticipation is likely to cause some pivot entry behavior.  When that is what you want that is great idea.  What you have described is often referred to as "skiing into counter", popular in recreational skiing in many situations.  

However, there are many situations where that is not ideal.  There are ample opportunities to PROACTIVELY counter-rotate prior to the apex of the turn.  Gait mechanics.  You turn the inside hip out, rather than ski into counter, as you described above.  Swinging out your inside hip towards the outside of the turn, with your outside femur being like the hinge of a gate, sets up a very strong stacked position and everts your outside ankle, putting you on an excellent edge.  
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Also check out how round the turn is and how she uses the ski side cut to turn. No skidding or pivotting.

I disagree with that assessment.  In frame 2 her outside ski is not bent.  In fact her anticipation may have in fact provided a small pivot entry through the first couple frames. It looks to me that she is a bit on her inside ski at frame 2, her skis are diverging at frame 3 where she is starting to be countered (relative to her inside ski, not sure what her outside is doing by frame 3.  By frame 4 she has the turn under control, very much countered and angulated.  Unfortunately that is pretty much the turn apex already.

I would not view this sequence as being the "ideal".  It is one turn.  In my view it shows how versatile these skiers can be and need to be on a regular basis due to course layout and stuff that happens during a run to force them to deal with it.
 
post #33 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post



As I said, I was just thinking out loud, but some arguments



Quote:
- The inner foot will be better balanced becuase of the lesser separation. If e.g. the outer ski slips there will be less sever balance problems.
Less tip lead gives a better balance. If you have a lot of tip lead the inner boot will be far ahead of CoM
- You can put more pressure on the inner leg without getting into the backseat. This will help the comma shape of the turn.
This is also related to the tip lead. If you increase inside pressure with a lot of tip lead you will obviously get into the back seat.
- Less A-frame
If you have tried both ways of countering this should be quite obvious, look e.g. at Maier compared to Gruber.
-It will drive the tips more into the snow.

Maybe this one is not important, but I think it is at least possible to have more torque

On all of those points, says who?  Where is the evidence?


 
post #34 of 62
I have messed around with the varying hip positions, as described in an earlier post. I found that some counter was more comfortable, although I do think that to be able to achieve angulation without counter is a good skill. It can help in a tight spot to know you can make it happen.

I am not so much concerned about the amount of tip lead than I am about proper pressure and weighting. Some skiers simply develop tip lead because they have developed deep angles and their inside leg has to go somewhere for their outside leg to continue to be effective. If they are letting the inside leg flex, the tip is going to go forward. If they are putting weight on the inside ski, that is going to be a problem. If not, then it isn't. Tip lead in itself isn't bad. How you develop it can be.

I am more comfortable with counter in my own skiing. Its what I've been doing for years and changing would be unnatural. When I first started racing on new gear, I felt totally weird doing what I was being taught, but when I started executing good turns, everything felt right.

Skiing and racing in particular is about doing your own best. What it takes to excel is different from skier to skier. Had someone forced Gruber to use extreme counter 'because look at Herman!', would Gruber have succeeded like he did? Do you think that Gruber ever messed around with a more countered stance?
post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

I have messed around with the varying hip positions, as described in an earlier post. I found that some counter was more comfortable, although I do think that to be able to achieve angulation without counter is a good skill. It can help in a tight spot to know you can make it happen.

I am not so much concerned about the amount of tip lead than I am about proper pressure and weighting. Some skiers simply develop tip lead because they have developed deep angles and their inside leg has to go somewhere for their outside leg to continue to be effective. If they are letting the inside leg flex, the tip is going to go forward. If they are putting weight on the inside ski, that is going to be a problem. If not, then it isn't. Tip lead in itself isn't bad. How you develop it can be.

I am more comfortable with counter in my own skiing. Its what I've been doing for years and changing would be unnatural. When I first started racing on new gear, I felt totally weird doing what I was being taught, but when I started executing good turns, everything felt right.

Skiing and racing in particular is about doing your own best. What it takes to excel is different from skier to skier. Had someone forced Gruber to use extreme counter 'because look at Herman!', would Gruber have succeeded like he did? Do you think that Gruber ever messed around with a more countered stance?

Tip lead happens simply because you stand sideways on a slope and you should really not force that any different, like you said whatever feels most comfortable. 
Maiers success really had a lot to do with his mental strength, not anyone ever has so far compared to him simply because of that. Frankly I would have liked to change his stance somewhat.
post #36 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
Less tip lead gives a better balance. If you have a lot of tip lead the inner boot will be far ahead of CoM

This is also related to the tip lead. If you increase inside pressure with a lot of tip lead you will obviously get into the back seat.


If you have tried both ways of countering this should be quite obvious, look e.g. at Maier compared to Gruber.


Maybe this one is not important, but I think it is at least possible to have more torque


 

What if you pull your inside foot back strongly throughout the duration of the turn while you counter at the hips? 
post #37 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl View Post




What if you pull your inside foot back strongly throughout the duration of the turn while you counter at the hips? 



 

The limited flex in the boot will only allow that up to a certain degree.
post #38 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post




Tip lead happens simply because you stand sideways on a slope and you should really not force that any different, like you said whatever feels most comfortable. 
Maiers success really had a lot to do with his mental strength, not anyone ever has so far compared to him simply because of that. Frankly I would have liked to change his stance somewhat.
 

Simplyfast, I read that you have a website. Would you mind posting the URL?
post #39 of 62
Here we go with tip lead again...

Tip lead happens.  A little bit is perfectly fine.  If you have big edge angles, there is no way to avoid some tip lead without compromising other biomechanically sound aspects of your ski turn.

I get really annoyed when I hear instructors/coaches harping about tip lead, with no other explanation about it.  It can be EXTREMELY damaging to tell someone to "stop using tip lead", because tip lead is a consequence of other intentional movements usually, not often an intentional movement itself.  Tell someone to stop using tip lead and they are quite possibly going to introduce completely new erroneous movements in order to erradicate it to please their teacher.

As I said, some tip lead is perfectly acceptable.  But if you see "too much" tip lead, particularly entering transition, then more should be looked at.

As the person doing MA, you have to first accept that some small amount of tip lead is perfectly acceptable aspect of a biomechanically sound turn, particularly as edge angles get bigger.  Particularly at the apex of the turn where edge angles are the biggest and they are primarily standing on their outside ski.  Coming through transition is where you should focus any concerns about tip lead.

What I personally see commonly is that skiers who fall to the inside during their turns tend to scissor the inside ski forward excessively.  This is more of a consequence of the fact that they are falling onto it.  I would rather focus on getting them to stop falling onto the inside ski and not speak a word to them about tip lead unless I'm having trouble convincing them they need to work on their balance.

Pulling back the inside foot during a turn will not cure the problem I just mentioned.  There is a LOT more going on that will have to be corrected.  Pulling back the inside foot is just a little icing on the cake to polish up an already pretty sound turn, IMHO.  

Simplyfast mentioned that pulling back the foot is limited by the flex in the boot.  To a certain degree that is true for some people.  If there is enough forward lean in the boot, then it can be done.  Some people, myself included, have very limited dorsiflexion which makes it pretty much impossible to pull back the foot enough to have any real positive impact on the ski turn. 
post #40 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post




Simplyfast, I read that you have a website. Would you mind posting the URL?
 
Sorry I do not, unless you are willing to help me with the english language?
post #41 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post



Sorry I do not, unless you are willing to help me with the english language?

 
Sorry I don't understand, are you saying that the site is in German only? Or are you asking for help to translate the site?
post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post



Sorry I don't understand, are you saying that the site is in German only? Or are you asking for help to translate the site?

 

Well I do not have a site. And I cannot use material from the austrian association. (OeSV)
Not having a site is in our point of view better because there would not be perhaps such a huge demand hiring our coaches worldwide. But besides that you can see how much troubles I have simply being on here. Not only is it the translation, but also the approach to the matter. 
Still I like the idea, but would need some folks that understand and put it in writing so that everyone can do something with it and understands it with ease. I will be off for a few days, but will be back later.
post #43 of 62

I tried 'pulling my inside foot back' over the weekend to 'reduce tip lead' and found it senseless for me. Of course my inside ski wasn't going along for the ride to begin with. I had shin contact with the tongue of my inside boot and the ski was actively engaged prior to trying to pull the inside foot back.

I'm not suggesting that some people can't benefit from moving the inside foot back, but as was pointed out by BTS, tip lead problems are often the symptom of other problems. Getting the inside boot back is evidence of solving a tip lead issue, not always the means.

post #44 of 62
Mastersracer, good point above!

I noticed farther back in this thread someone talked about pushing the outside foot ahead during finish phase, I believe it was simplyfast?  I have played over the years with pushing the outside foot ahead as well as pulling the inside foot back and find they have different affects for me.  

I particularly like beginning a lead change a bit proactively during the last phase of the turns by pushing the outside foot forward because, if you keep it weighted while sliding it forward, it pulls the hips across the feet, though I do have to be careful not to create an early counter at the top of the new turn.  I agree this movement improves the edge grip of the ski tail and excellerates the feet passing beneath the cg..  The key for me is to keep the ski turning as it is pushed forward which creates a very slippery silky transition into the new turn and creates just a bit extra twist into the legs and core before it is released into the new turn.  It also keeps the tail from slipping out as the edge angle is released toward edge change, permitting the ski to keep turning a split second longer .  There is no pause or hesitation through the edge change, there can't be or I would fall on my face.

Conversely, pulling the inside foot back throughout the turn seems to accomplish a different result for me.  I feel this movement works best if done just enough to load the fore-body of the ski a bit to keep it tracking.  Care must be taken not to square the hips up.  I don't feel it helps me transition through edge change any better but beginning the pull back early in the turn may help the get pressure to the shovels sooner?

So for me, I find by keeping the pressure under my foot moving from front to back throughout the turns helps the skis turn better, hold better, and my dynamic balance is better because I am anticipating the accelerations and decelerations better by keeping my base of stance in line with the forces pulling on me.  This certainly works better than trying to stay "centered" over my feet all the time which inevitably results in imbalances and more reactive balancing as apposed to proactive. 
post #45 of 62
Thread Starter 

Good analysis Bud.

I have also been playing aound with pushing the outside foot forward at he turn exit since simplyfast mentioned it. I find that it makes it a lot simpler to go through the transition without getting too much into the backseat, and to start the next turn with agressive shin pressure. The feeling I get is that by putting pressure on the tail just before releasing pressure starts a forward tilt of the body during the transition, and if the transition is fast the flexed legs never causes the inherit backseat. I also have a feeling that it makes it simpler to pivot the skis before the fall-line, if necessary (in the gates).

post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


Angulation is simply the act of counter-balancing the upper half of your body outwards over your outside ski in order to maintain balance while obtaining the edge angles you need through inclination.  Whether you are countered or not does not make it any less to be angulation.  Countering just makes angulation easier and more effective because you can bend more to the front then to the side.  This is why some people don't even like to use the word "angulation" anymore, because the real meaning of the skill is lost as people argue over the appearance.

 

First, my apologies for digging up an old thread :)

 

I've been experimenting with countering + hip angulation the past week and it is just not working out for me. I feel stable and in control in high speed turns, but taking a look at video, I'm shocked at how much "A-frame" I am exhibiting in my legs. I typically ski trying to emulate Hermann Maier, e.g., leading into the turn through inclination and a recentering of my upperbody during the end of the turn, rather than through the "intentional" aggressive countering with my hips and upperbody.

 

I figured that since my inside ski is leading, my hip will already be "countered" without the need to make any additional conscious angulation movements, and by simply bending forward at the waist, my "naturally countered" hips will mean that I am also countering my upperbody (i.e., it is angulating not merely forward, but also at an angle towards and over my outside ski).

 

But this past week, I "intentionally" focused on countering/angulating my hips. On a flat surface with skis parallel, I would practice sitting down, but to the side at an angle (roughly 45 degrees). This is how I assume "angulated hips" look like when carving. I then took this approach to a slope, and as I entered each turn after the fall-line, I would practice "sitting down at the 45 degree angle". Oddly enough, it felt stable, balanced, and maybe more dynamic than what I was used to. However, looking back at video, I was horribly A-framed and my body just looked unnatural and contorted.

 

Aside from my general question of "what the heck am I doing wrong, should I just go back to my normal way of skiing?" I am also curious whether:

 

-should my focus during the hip counter be more on leaning forward at the waist, rather than "sitting down"? I assume the "sitting down" puts me in the backseat and too much pressure on my inside ski

-similar question, but if you are actively angulating your hip (i.e., more than the "natural" response to the leading inside ski), doesn't that mean that your hips are actually going to be balanced over your inside ski, leading you to lose pressure on your outside ski?

-do I really need to be consciously thinking about hip angulation, or isn't it something that just happens naturally when the inside ski is leading?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

By the way, the below reference is what I strive to achieve in my skiing:

 

http://www.youcanski.com/en/tendencies.htm

post #47 of 62

develop inclination by tipping your inside foot and cranking that knee to the inside.  Angulate by bending up to counter balance.  The reason you are getting A frame is because you have a lazy inside foot and leg and most likely you are trying to create edge angles by pushing your hip down to create angulation.  Yes definitely don't think of it as "sitting down"

post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

develop inclination by tipping your inside foot and cranking that knee to the inside.  Angulate by bending up to counter balance.  The reason you are getting A frame is because you have a lazy inside foot and leg and most likely you are trying to create edge angles by pushing your hip down to create angulation.  Yes definitely don't think of it as "sitting down"

 

Sounds about right, thanks. I found it very hard to adequately do anything with my inside foot/knee when I was "sitting down" :) In fact, looking back, even my outside leg looks far too straight.

post #49 of 62

post some video and I can give you better feedback.  PM is fine.

post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Racing is all about being fastest to the finish. Being fast is determined by ski/snow contact, aerodynamics and tactics.

So much of a racer's body position has to do with their personal style and physiology rather than simply application of technique. I generally look at the skis, the feet and the lower legs when I'm analyzing someone's skiing. If I spot something off, then I look up to see if there are things that are creating the situation. Certainly hip position and rotation have considerable effect on what happens at the feet and the snow, but I don't think you can uniformally say 'do abc and you will have better turns'.

I thought MR did a great job of explaining things.  I would like to add one thing to his comments.  He says: "I generally look at the skis, the feet and the lower legs when I'm analyzing someone's skiing."The very first thing I look at when looking at any skier at any level is his TURN SHAPE.  This is going to give me the biggest clue as to what is happening downstairs and why. The turn shape tells me what I might be looking for, good or bad in the feet and lower legs. 

 

MR also points out that he uses femur rotation rather than hip rotation.  Also IMO a very important point. One thing to note (sorry if you've already covered it MR, I'm a bad reader with ADHD) is that one could (probably should) examine one of the functions of the inside ski. IF you are continuously actively attempting to turn/edge the inside ski, it will require an opposing force. That opposing force is the femur rotating against the hips, with the power tranferring across the pelvic girdle, down the opposite femur down into the opposite foot and ski. In other words, actively utilizing the inside ski is what provides the torque and power to the outside ski.  But curiously, the reverse does not occur. 

 

Lastly I loved MR's diagram of hips, shoulders and CoM.  I hope he will allow me to use it some time. If you will notice, based on how the body parts are facing,  the LATERAL BALANCE  (call it lateral body position, if you will) of the skier is continually shifting.  If you are in the correct lateral body position you will have the most control over both edging and pressuring components.  At the end of the turn  it is critical!  Being a little too far to the inside of the turn at the end locks up the feet and requires gross body movement to release edges and the old turn, while correct lateral positioning allows instantaneous release of the edges with feet and minimal body movement, making for lightening quick and smooth initiations.  In a race situation it is the difference between having an optimal line or potential a recovery.  Also, if you really want to see the importance of proper lateral body positioning, look at Mikaela Shifrin's Olympic slalom run when she bobbles. She recovers and goes on to win because her lateral balance is perfect.  

 

MR...Thanks for all of that. Beautifully explained. 

post #51 of 62

@vindibona1 , you are welcome to use the diagrams. I'm glad you find them helpful.

post #52 of 62

Thanks MR.  Your diagram will prove to be extremely helpful.  It is likely I will use it at some point in my writing. How one's lateral position transitions is the difference between skiing OK or skiing great. Did you create the diagram yourself?  It is the most accurate and concise one I've seen. 

 

Thanks again. 

post #53 of 62

I did create the diagram. A simple paint program was all that I used. And my noggin, of course.

post #54 of 62

 


Here's that diagram again.

I have a question for you, @MastersRacer.

If I just look at the orientation of the hips (blue line) to the CoM travel line (yellow), it looks almost always perpendicular.   

 

The inside hip should be a little ahead of the outside hip when the inside leg is shorter than the outside leg.

If I look real close I can see some inside hip lead for a brief time right after the fall line.

I'm assuming the skier is heading down the page.  
The way it looks, you don't hold onto any counter through transition for these turns.  

I assume they are long radius turns?

post #55 of 62

I see the diagram showing the hips fairly square before the fall line until they point directly down the hill, then a slight outward focus. I think I was mostly trying to illustrate the relationship of the shoulders to hips more than exact degrees of counter in either. As I mentioned my posts, different people will need different amounts of counter in their hips and shoulders. Turn radius and speed will also affect the amount of counter used.

 

The more I analyze my own skiing the more I realize that the edge angle of the inside ski is far more critical than the amount of lead it has. If I get my butt inches from the ground in a turn, I must get my inside leg out of the way and I do that by thinking of flexing the leg, not the position of my hips or shoulders.

post #56 of 62

To address your questions/statements directly:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

...

 

Here's that diagram again.

I have a question for you, @MastersRacer.

If I just look at the orientation of the hips (blue line) to the CoM travel line (yellow), it looks almost always perpendicular.   

 

The inside hip should be a little ahead of the outside hip when the inside leg is shorter than the outside leg.

>My own experience hasn't convinced me of the necessity of this.

 

If I look real close I can see some inside hip lead for a brief time right after the fall line.

>Agreed

 

I'm assuming the skier is heading down the page.  

>Yes

 

The way it looks, you don't hold onto any counter through transition for these turns.  

>No counter, per se, but my hips have changed position relative to the shoulders.

 

I assume they are long radius turns?

>Yes

post #57 of 62
Great thread, guys, I'm glad to have found it!

How is with the extension of the outside leg and center foot or even heel pressure of that leg in the mid part of the turn?
post #58 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogar View Post

Great thread, guys, I'm glad to have found it!

How is with the extension of the outside leg and center foot or even heel pressure of that leg in the mid part of the turn?

In the center part, or apex, of the turn you typically have the maximum amount of pressure in a good turn on moderna equipment. This is not a time to extend the outside leg. You also need to stay away from the heels. The pressure should be closer to the balls. Later in the turn you may let it slide though (it may already have started but not so that you are back already)

post #59 of 62
Quote:
 In the center part, or apex, of the turn you typically have the maximum amount of pressure in a good turn on moderna equipment. This is not a time to extend the outside leg. You also need to stay away from the heels. The pressure should be closer to the balls. Later in the turn you may let it slide though (it may already have started but not so that you are back already)

From a biomechanics perspective, you should be more on your heels where pressure is the greatest, and on the ball of the foot where pressure is lighter and you are looking to shape the turn through leg rotation.  So if pressure is greatest at the apex, which for most people it is after the falline or center, then you would have more pressure on the heels. Just saying.

post #60 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post
 

From a biomechanics perspective, you should be more on your heels where pressure is the greatest, and on the ball of the foot where pressure is lighter and you are looking to shape the turn through leg rotation.  So if pressure is greatest at the apex, which for most people it is after the falline or center, then you would have more pressure on the heels. Just saying.

Neutral is when the CoM is above AJC (Ankle Joint Center). On the heels is when the CoM is behind the AJC. This should not happen until later in the turn.

When the pressure is the greatest, which should be close the fall line (although I agree it isn't for most people), the pressure should be distributed between ball and heel, but still significantly ahead of the AJC. In my experience as soon as you tell someone to be more on the heels they are too far back. It also depends on the kind of turn.  A pure carved turn has more even distribution, and a brushed would have more fore going to more back. Need more turn? Be more forward, but it is also slower.

I don't really buy into the biomechanics reason as a single reason. You also need to consider balance, which is way worse if you are standing on your heels.

Also it is a bit too generic to say that you should be on the ball when pressure is lighter. The pressure is lighter early in the turn and late in the turn. Normally you would want ball pressure early but not necessarily late.

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