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Tipping vs. Twisting a Ski - Page 6

post #151 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Well, Tog.....   What is your observation of the two clips you posted?

[since we're on a new page, here are the clips:
full speed Felix Neureuther: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvQq5XMXm5c
slow mo Felix:                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orbz0jIt9xg&feature=fvw  ]

Perhaps we should all visit the Encyclopedia of Skiing for some clarification on "steering", "steering angle", "pivoting", "carving" to insure we are all on the same page?
Well I think that there's everything going on there. First off, the guy is going at speeds that recreational skiers almost never do. If you look at the first clip, he's going between 30-52 km/s. That's roughly 18-32 mph making very quick and sometimes very sharp turns. The idea that he's making some sort of passive "brushed carve" where he just simply "tips" the skis is idiotic. Hey, I could be wrong but I doubt it. It's somewhat inconceivable that one can believe that all you have to do is tip and make the turn in those conditions. It's not some blue groomer that he's just tooling down at 8 mph.
There are some shots in there where he makes serious changes in direction in one turn, eg. at 47 secs in the full speed clip. I don't see that happening by mere tipping or by "passive" twisting.
Si, do you really think the guy is just "tipping"?

Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
[highlighted portion of Si's post Pierre refers to:]
Why should one ever isolate and focus on twisting the ski when it is almost always more effective to tip and twist or in some cases exclusively tip the ski?

...   Steering in a nutshell is using movement patterns to control the direction the skis are pointing.  Pretty simple.  Steering fits in nicely with the highlighted portion of your original post.

Now in the last part of your highlighted sentence you talk about "in some cases" which I would agree with but, throughout the rest of this thread, you seem to associate "some cases" of tipping the skis exclusively with "most of the time".  Now that I would steer clear of, pun intended.
 

Now your last sentence seems to imply that tipping by itself will solve all issues unless here too, you are out of context by trying to narrowly define things.  In that application I think of steering as something as simple rolling the knees into or away from the turn in relation to the upper body at the hip socket. The femurs are rotating in the hips sockets and tipping is most definitely occurring.

Its a movement pattern that is very effective at changing the shape of a turn no?  Are you twisting the skis?  I certainly can make an argument for the fact the skis are twisting in relation to a quiet upper body. Can I make an argument for the fact that this is tipping and not twisting?  Sure I can but most of the action here was in the hip sockets.  Am I talking about a carved turn?  No I am talking about a brushed carve turn or a carved turn,  Makes no difference.
The bold part of Pierre's post I think gets to something that confuses the whole issue.  If you point the knees in the direction of the turn you will tip the skis. This can just be simple putting the skis up on edge or not. You can easily steer them- guide the skis through the turn, in that position. That's not passive, but you could just tip them too. Either way femurs are rotating in hip sockets no?
There's another thing here though. In that video clip, like most slalom clips, he is skiing with very closed tibia to femur angle. It looks like he is sitting in a chair a lot of times. This position allows far more tipping with the knees - angulation then a more upright stance. I also suspect that tipping the knees also applies more torque or twist to the ski. Even if I'm wrong about that, you can still supply significant amounts of twist to the foot/ski from the knee down.

In other words you're twisting the foot and tibia. In that "seated" positon twisting the feet/tibias has less of an effect on twisting the femurs in the pelvis, and probably less tendency to destabilze the pelvis. One of the amazing things about the clip of Neureuther and other slalom skiers is the upper body stability. You really get to see that in the slo mo version. But you can apply significant twisting force to the ski in that seated position. (You can do it in your chair)

Maybe the term "apply significant twisting force" is a bit of a misnomer though. How much force does one "apply" as opposed to "resist"? Does the act of "twisting" the feet, from knee down in this case, merely supply tension to all the muscles so that the skis are not deflected out of a path or do they make that path? I suppose it depends on what part of the turn it's done in and how much pressure there is on the skis at the time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

From what I can gather you're saying that steering relates to both tipping and twisting the ski.  How you define steering (and rotary along with it) is up to you but as I said to Bud I've been trying to ask about which ski actions are most effective in which situations.
Maybe you and others are just trying to say that most of the time tipping and twisting the ski just go together and that makes for the most effective turn?  You can make arguments both ways like you said but in a given turn there are actual torques and loads applied to the ski and I'm trying to get to an understanding of those torques in various situations of "effective and efficient" (whatever that is?) skiing.
 
Well I suppose that you can just make turns by "tipping" if you want to. I don't believe you can make turns like in the slalom clip by merely "tipping".

I think the biggest lesson though from the slalom clip is the way he is always directing his body down the hill. When the body is going down the hill, everything else becomes easier. Hell, because of the pitch of a slope, that movement down the hill flattens, (tips) your skis and they start turning. It is a continous thing though, not a sudden movement to start a turn.

The number one problem with most people who "struggle" or are "stuck" in a rut is they don't want to go down the freakin' hill. I've seen this even with people who are quite comfortable with moving on skis even at fairly high moderate speed.  If you teach "twisting" of the skis to someone with that mindset, it becomes pushing the tails out and bracing against the skis - thus tail pushing and backseat drivers.
If you teach "tipping" to someone who really doesn't want to go downhill, they will move up hill during the movement or contort their bodies in very odd positions and most likely twist anyway.

The other huge difficulty to teaching "tipping" is people in boots that are so big that tipping of the feet has little effect on the ski. Some people "self medicate" that condition unknowingly now with getting fatter skis which feel more stable even on groomers. The ski takes much longer to tip on edge which feels more comfortable than a ski which is quickly going edge to edge but is out of sync with one's foot.

Ideally, people could learn on very, very gentle terrain and just get used to sliding for lengthy periods of time. Even if that terrain is available though, few want to do that. Except young kids. People usually start turning while they still are of the mindset that they are don't want to let their bodies go downhill. That has a huge effect on learning whether it's twisting  or tipping.
Edited by Tog - 2/25/10 at 2:23pm
post #152 of 159
 Good post Tog,

I agree a big part of negative habitual movements stem from mental attitude "will".   If beginners would stay on flatter terrain and become comfortable with sliding before venturing to slightly steeper terrain where they immediately begin to ingrain defensive movements, the end results would certainly be more positive.  I know I try to keep beginner students on very easy terrain and try to gradually increase their speed/fear threshold before moving to more pitched terrain where we then focus on rounder completed turns to control speed with patience through the fall line vs. pivoted turn entries.
post #153 of 159
Thread Starter 
First I'd like to say that I really appreciate the effort people have put into their contributions and responses.  The last few posts have gone beyond any specifics of my questions but demonstrate to me how many people believe that the skills we are talking about are inseparable.  I can accept that.  While I am not responding to each of the posters in this thread individually, know that I have taken away many concepts from what you have said.

Tog, I think those videos you posted are tremendous.  I don't think it will add anything for me to give an opinion.  Personally, I don't think there is a way to know how much the skis are turning the skier vs. how much the skier is turning the skis from these types of videos but they sure make me wonder.  Having sensors at the boot binding interface alone wouldn't necessarily answer the question as they couldn't differentiate between these two scenarios.  I think that force/torque sensor info would have to be combined with measurements of muscle activation to get the whole picture (relates to the active vs. passive rotary issues that have been brought up).  Additionally, I think that an individuals perception of what is happening in a turning situation like this or others is highly suspicious.  There are very good skiers who claim both sides of the argument.  Finally, in addition to these videos, for those who want to offer an opinion on how much the ski is turning the skier and vice versa in these videos, I'd be interested in an opinion on these videos, which were cross referenced in the General Ski Discussion from TGR, as well:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097

As a comment, I will add that as someone who is not a part of any particular system, I find the terminology used to be vague and very problematic.  If it were up to me, I'd wipe the slate clean and start over.  Every time some uses a term like steering, rotary, twisting, etc. I either have to ask what they mean (as it can change from post to post even for the same individual), refer back to their definition for the purposes of a particular thread (if it exists), or make assumptions that can often be very wrong.  Two terms that don't seem to be too confusing are tipping and edging.  Why can't there be terms that are just as clear cut for all movements of the skis and of the body?  (I actually can answer that in part so just consider it a rhetorical question).
post #154 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

From what I can gather you're saying that steering relates to both tipping and twisting the ski.  How you define steering (and rotary along with it) is up to you but as I said to Bud I've been trying to ask about which ski actions are most effective in which situations. Maybe you and others are just trying to say that most of the time tipping and twisting the ski just go together and that makes for the most effective turn?  You can make arguments both ways like you said but in a given turn there are actual torques and loads applied to the ski and I'm trying to get to an understanding of those torques in various situations of "effective and efficient" (whatever that is?) skiing.


Why should one ever isolate and focus on twisting the ski when it is almost always more effective to tip and twist or in some cases exclusively tip the ski?

 

Si, you seem to want to pin it down so let's try.  You say tipping is more effective.  Is that tipping using banking, tipping using upper body rotation. tipping using knee angulation. tipping using the ankle/eversion/inversion, angulation of the body, moving the hip sideways,  dropping the inside hip?  How are you tipping?  You see the problem don't you.  

Twisting is the same problem. 

Its kind of like asking "From the hike position in football,  which is better to get the ball across the end zone.  Resting my and on the ground or on the football?"
post #155 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

Tog, I think those videos you posted are tremendous.  I don't think it will add anything for me to give an opinion.  Personally, I don't think there is a way to know how much the skis are turning the skier vs. how much the skier is turning the skis from these types of videos but they sure make me wonder. 

You can easily see the skis airborne or on the verge of airborne quite a lot in Tog's video, yet the skis are pivoting.  That comes from only one place, the legs.

That isn't to say that prior to being airborne there wasn't tipping happening which influenced the general direction the skier moves.  When these slalom skiers make a quick movement from right to left across the hill...that is primarily because of tipping, the skis carved and snapped them that way.  However, during the snap they often go airborne or light enough to virtually be airborne,  and yet their skis continue to pivot as they approach the other side.  Pivoting, scivoting, call it what you want, but there is input from the legs to turn those skis into position so that they are ready to engage the edges and use tipping again on the other side.  

I can see it very clearly in these videos Si.

Whether the skis turn the body or the body turns the ski, that's a bit simplistic.  There are two kinds of movement happening with the ski.  The ski is moving along some kind of path, ideally, S shaped.  And meanwhile the ski is pivoting on the snow relative to the skier's body.  In an ideal arc to arc scenario, it follows the path tip to tail. Although the ski is not pivoting around the arc'd path...it is pivoting underneath the body so to speak.  In that case, little or not input from the skier is required to cause the ski to pivot enough to continue on the tip to tail arcing path.  The body mostly just needs to stay out of the way and not block it from happening.  This is only applicable when the ski is pressured.

Actually even if you are not purely arcing, there is still a steering angle of some kind, which has the effect of pivoting the ski on the snow, without you having to use any force for your legs (providing the ski is pressured).

If you are not arcing, not pressured or if the steering angle is not enough to cause the ski to pivot as quickly as you would like it to, then twisting from the legs is required.

Racers do it, bumpers do it, recreational skiers do it.  Everyone does it.  

Can you twist too much?  Absolutely.  Can you rely on tipping too much?  Absolutely.  If you get too hung up on trying to avoid any twisting then you are going to be limiting yourself.  Mastery of tipping AND twisting is critical to high level skiing.  Blend them to steer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post
As a comment, I will add that as someone who is not a part of any particular system, I find the terminology used to be vague and very problematic.  If it were up to me, I'd wipe the slate clean and start over.  Every time some uses a term like steering, rotary, twisting, etc. I either have to ask what they mean (as it can change from post to post even for the same individual), refer back to their definition for the purposes of a particular thread (if it exists), or make assumptions that can often be very wrong.  Two terms that don't seem to be too confusing are tipping and edging.  Why can't there be terms that are just as clear cut for all movements of the skis and of the body?  (I actually can answer that in part so just consider it a rhetorical question).
 
Yea I agree with you on that.  There is too much confusion related to terminology.  There have been many attempts on this board to clear that up and the confusion just continues.  My conclusion is that its hopeless, not only on this board but also out on the hill.  You just can't rely on simple terms.  Always explain in long sentence form what you mean, or else you can assume it will be misunderstood or misconstrued to mean something else according to someone else's definition.
post #156 of 159
Thread Starter 
Thanks BTS, no issue from me on moving from 1 set of edges to the other when the skis are unweighted.  That's a simple case that if there is some disagreeement is probably a matter of definition and use of terms.  I hope it's clear I have been talking about situations where a ski is pressured
post #157 of 159
I'd add that a failure to communicate can occur on both ends. So it's not always the presenters choice of terms that get in the way of effective communication. Active listening is another key to effective communications. Developing a rebuttal even before the presenter is finished is what I'm talking about. We all do it and it's not easy to turn that little voice off but it's IMO even more important than good presentation skills.
post #158 of 159
I here you on that one JASP.  It seems like I can get never evers to understand many movement patterns easier than seasoned instructors with pre conceived ideas.
post #159 of 159
I guess all I'm trying to say here is the objecive of reading, or listening is to gain information. When we start interupting that free flow of thought and concentrate on our rebuttal, we are no longer listening.
I've used personal examples before to express how I've found myself doing exactly this. The race training I was doing with Bob and Tony being just one I've shared here before. The bottom line was that I didn't agree with the theory being presented and made it a point to say that. It was just so incongruent with my understanding of "proper" technique. I did promise to give this alternate approach a try but what I found out was that I wasn't fully investing into what was being presented. When I finally climbed out of my self imposed convention trench, it all clicked and my performance improved dramatically. The lesson I learned was that I was the biggest impediment to my own learning during these race clinics. It wasn't easy to admit that after 30+ years of teaching, coaching and training in a variety of organizations. We're alway asking our students to explore our advice with an open mind. Shouldn't we approach things the same way? 
Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/27/10 at 8:33am
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