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Tipping vs. Twisting a Ski

post #1 of 159
Thread Starter 
It’s been a long time since I’ve jumped into these waters but it’s a foggy day, I’ve only got a Sunday-Friday pass, and the current thread on Rogan’s article has not really addressed a question I’ve had for a long time. My thinking on this was forged long ago in discussions with Bob Barnes and others in the early days on Epic, especially by the arguments in support of the need for active leg rotation. Before I get to the question I’d like to ask, I will try and explain where I’m coming from. I think that a strong focus on tipping is much more effective than one with equal or greater focus on “steering” (my definition: twisting or turning of the legs to apply a rotational (twisting or pivoting) torque to the ski in the plane of the ski). Note that both of these actions of the skis requires hip rotation (rotation of the femur within the hip socket) although the degree of active muscular involvement of the hip rotators may be significantly different for the two. Please note that I think that this issue is secondary to the much more fundamental issue of balance but still very important.

So my question is: Why should one ever isolate and focus on twisting the ski when it is almost always more effective to tip and twist or in some cases exclusively tip the ski? I ask this question whether it is the context of a drill or real skiing. I also realize that there are a few situational exceptions where a pure twisting of the ski might be desirable – let’s try to focus on the more common skiing situations and environments, not the exceptions or drills like pivot slips.
 
Some support for my point of view:

Tipping engages an engineering design of the ski to bend and produce turning forces. This is true in both hard and soft snow although the mechanisms are a bit different for these two conditions. It only seems logical to want to employ this turning force to the degree possible in every turn. A point of clarification:  tipping and carving are not synonymous.  A tipped ski produces turning forces not matter what degree of edge lock exists, i.e. a "scarving" ski still produces turning forces. 

Tipping the skis requires a much more balanced position over the skis that twisting them. If you are a position to tip the skis you can easily twist them. The vice-versa is not true. Thus tipping better encourages good balance.

Tipping the skis does not promote upper body rotation to anywhere near the extent that twisting the skis does. I understand that it is an important teaching focus to teach steering with good upper/lower body separation but this is often a difficult thing for people to achieve.

Some experiential support:

I have only taught part time for one season. However, my experience seems to support this position. I worked at Snowmass and received a lot of training in their Beginner Magic system. They asked us very specifically, as new instructors, to follow their prescribed progression. That included a focus on turning the legs and tipping the skis to initiate a turn. As I tried to employ this I saw a good percentage of my students throwing in significant upper body rotation to try and turn their skis even though we very explicitly talked about, demonstrated, and statically practiced isolation of the upper body from leg rotation. At this point (this happened in most first day lessons) I would switch to an exclusive focus on flexing for release and tipping (based on passed teaching experiences with friends and family). The results for the vast majority of my students was a dramatically improved ability to initiate and link turns, noticeable reduction in upper body rotation, and improved confidence. They still were twisting their skis some but it was in combination with active tipping. I have had similar success with a focus on tipping with upper level skiers who I have taught informally (I only was allowed to teach levels 1-4 in my first year at Snowmass except for a few privates stemming from group lessons or chair lift discussions). The most generally effective way I have found to reduce upper body rotation is a focus on release and tipping. From what I have seen this, in no way, inhibits people from additionally twisting the ski, in fact, it better sets them up to naturally add twisting of the skis via isolated leg rotation with much less guidance.
post #2 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

It’s been a long time since I’ve jumped into these waters but it’s a foggy day, I’ve only got a Sunday-Friday pass, and the current thread on Rogan’s article has not really addressed a question I’ve had for a long time. My thinking on this was forged long ago in discussions with Bob Barnes and others in the early days on Epic, especially by the arguments in support of the need for active leg rotation. Before I get to the question I’d like to ask, I will try and explain where I’m coming from. I think that a strong focus on tipping is much more effective than one with equal or greater focus on “steering” (my definition: twisting or turning of the legs to apply a rotational (twisting or pivoting) torque to the ski in the plane of the ski). Note that both of these actions of the skis requires hip rotation (rotation of the femur within the hip socket) although the degree of active muscular involvement of the hip rotators may be significantly different for the two. Please note that I think that this issue is secondary to the much more fundamental issue of balance but still very important.

So my question is: Why should one ever isolate and focus on twisting the ski when it is almost always more effective to tip and twist or in some cases exclusively tip the ski? I ask this question whether it is the context of a drill or real skiing. I also realize that there are a few situational exceptions where a pure twisting of the ski might be desirable – let’s try to focus on the more common skiing situations and environments, not the exceptions or drills like pivot slips.
 
Some support for my point of view:

Tipping engages an engineering design of the ski to bend and produce turning forces. This is true in both hard and soft snow although the mechanisms are a bit different for these two conditions. It only seems logical to want to employ this turning force to the degree possible in every turn. A point of clarification:  tipping and carving are not synonymous.  A tipped ski produces turning forces not matter what degree of edge lock exists, i.e. a "scarving" ski still produces turning forces. 

Tipping the skis requires a much more balanced position over the skis that twisting them. If you are a position to tip the skis you can easily twist them. The vice-versa is not true. Thus tipping better encourages good balance.

Tipping the skis does not promote upper body rotation to anywhere near the extent that twisting the skis does. I understand that it is an important teaching focus to teach steering with good upper/lower body separation but this is often a difficult thing for people to achieve.

Some experiential support:

I have only taught part time for one season. However, my experience seems to support this position. I worked at Snowmass and received a lot of training in their Beginner Magic system. They asked us very specifically, as new instructors, to follow their prescribed progression. That included a focus on turning the legs and tipping the skis to initiate a turn. As I tried to employ this I saw a good percentage of my students throwing in significant upper body rotation to try and turn their skis even though we very explicitly talked about, demonstrated, and statically practiced isolation of the upper body from leg rotation. At this point (this happened in most first day lessons) I would switch to an exclusive focus on flexing for release and tipping (based on passed teaching experiences with friends and family). The results for the vast majority of my students was a dramatically improved ability to initiate and link turns, noticeable reduction in upper body rotation, and improved confidence. They still were twisting their skis some but it was in combination with active tipping. I have had similar success with a focus on tipping with upper level skiers who I have taught informally (I only was allowed to teach levels 1-4 in my first year at Snowmass except for a few privates stemming from group lessons or chair lift discussions). The most generally effective way I have found to reduce upper body rotation is a focus on release and tipping. From what I have seen this, in no way, inhibits people from additionally twisting the ski, in fact, it better sets them up to naturally add twisting of the skis via isolated leg rotation with much less guidance.

really loaded question Si.....


upper body rotation and steering/twisting our skis are to totally different things.

this year 100 percent of my begineer students(age 6 and up) who learn to steer turns right off the bat not one had upper body rotation going on. I may be able to teach leg steering better than you but its besides the point. upper body rotation should never be happening and leg steering if taught correctly produces none at all.

The article was just stating any rotary moves should be coming from the upper femur joint doesnt matter if its passive or active but that it is coming from the upper femur joint. I myself strive to make turns using primary edging and pressure movement but I have super precise upper body due to lots of practice with pivot slips. Drills like pivot slips which are only done to eliminate upper body rotation pivot slips still require tipping FYI as well. 

 
post #3 of 159
Look what I found in the boneyard.
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/71186/is-tip-to-turn-universal
Brains....
post #4 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




really loaded question Si.....


upper body rotation and steering/twisting our skis are to totally different things.

this year 100 percent of my begineer students(age 6 and up) who learn to steer turns right off the bat not one had upper body rotation going on. I may be able to teach leg steering better than you but its besides the point. upper body rotation should never be happening and leg steering if taught correctly produces none at all.

The article was just stating any rotary moves should be coming from the upper femur joint doesnt matter if its passive or active but that it is coming from the upper femur joint. I myself strive to make turns using primary edging and pressure movement but I have super precise upper body due to lots of practice with pivot slips. Drills like pivot slips which are only done to eliminate upper body rotation pivot slips still require tipping FYI as well. 

 
 
Josh, first I was very up front about my position so I wouldn't consider this a "loaded" question.  It is an honest question, however, to which I am open to other points of view.  Second, this was not in anyway a comment on the Rogan article.  My reference to the Epic discussion of the aritcle was only that it did not address the issue of whether steering should be a focus independent of tipping.
post #5 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




really loaded question Si.....


upper body rotation and steering/twisting our skis are to totally different things.

this year 100 percent of my begineer students(age 6 and up) who learn to steer turns right off the bat not one had upper body rotation going on. I may be able to teach leg steering better than you but its besides the point. upper body rotation should never be happening and leg steering if taught correctly produces none at all.

The article was just stating any rotary moves should be coming from the upper femur joint doesnt matter if its passive or active but that it is coming from the upper femur joint. I myself strive to make turns using primary edging and pressure movement but I have super precise upper body due to lots of practice with pivot slips. Drills like pivot slips which are only done to eliminate upper body rotation pivot slips still require tipping FYI as well. 

 
 

If you personally strive to make turns primarily using edging and pressure movement why do you teach steered turns right off the bat? 
post #6 of 159
Si as you probably know I agree with you 100% regarding a shift in focus from rotary/ steering to tipping. For me just looking at my i supershapes tells me getting focused on putting those skis on edge vs. fighting them just makes sense.

So as I agree with you completely I will make a couple of comments about the Rogan article, in part to defend myself for linking it to the beginner tip thread. My focus is always on the visual. The discussions here about technique do me little good because I just don't learn that way. I have to see it, either on video or demonstrated by boots on the snow and then copy. That's why I bailed out of participating here, I don't get it and I struggle to elucidate my thoughts and defend my positions.

I really didn't even read the words in the Rogan piece in the latest ski magazine until after I saw the thread. We agree that tipping the ski would have been a better focus verbally for the article. However, I only saw the visuals in the article and those visuals were brilliant. The side by side sequence and the helicopter shot showing the shoulders square to the fall line through a series of turns were among the best still visuals I have ever seen. Can we agree as instructors that low intermediates over rotating their upper body to the hill is one of the most common errors and one of the most difficult to correct?

Regarding tipping vs steering IMHO a lot of it is equipment dependent at times. I never think about rotary or steering movements when skiing 170 i supershapes but I will admit to dialing those movement patterns back up a bit consciously when I am on my 180 Volkl Explosivs (95 waist) especially as the pitch gets steeper or the line tighter.

I think steering and rotary continue to have their place in skiing and ski instruction but for an article focused on helping the intermediate I agree with you I would rather have seen Rogan use tipping more than steering in describing the movement.

As a visual learner tho, it didn't matter to me.

The pictures were worth a thousand words.....I'll bet Rogan is a visual learner too.     
post #7 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post




If you personally strive to make turns primarily using edging and pressure movement why do you teach steered turns right off the bat? 

because the simple act of point your feet where you need to go, keeps people in balance better than just saying tip this skis and balance on it. Alot of people cant keep up with a railed or nearly railed ski. 
post #8 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

Why should one ever isolate and focus on twisting the ski when it is almost always more effective to tip and twist or in some cases exclusively tip the ski?

Welcome back from the Fortess of Solitude (although if it's foggy you must be in Sandpoint).

Here are two possible reasons. When teaching I often isolate and focus on things with "Here's what I see. Here's what I want to see. Here's how to do it." or "Instead of this, do that" type teaching. It makes things very simple for students to positively change their skiing. Whatever "it" is, if it's some times more effective, then those times would be a good time to isolate and focus on whatever it is.
post #9 of 159

Si,  The myth of passive leg rotation is just that. The tibial plateau displaces laterally or medially as the boot cuff tips, so does the distal end of the femur. Wanna guess what the proximal end of the femur does when this happens? The idea of passively displacing the knee medially or laterally is erroneous since any lateral displacement of the knee involves active muscle usage. Rotating the leg so the patella externally rotates also requires active muscle engagement. Which as you tip the skis must happen BTW. So while you might choose to focus on the distal parts of the leg and the cuff of the boot tipping, it can't occur without the proximal end of the leg actively moving.

Another thought here is that levering front to back and tipping side to side assumes a level platform, add slope angle to the equation and the skis need to move in three dimensions not just two. In addition the lever off the tip to create a moment of inertia and thus rotate the skis around the tips. Without some active leg steering this move would produce a whole body rotation and way more angular momentum than needed. Add another problem from the fact that the excess angular momentum would need to be arrested. Typically it's arrested with a strong edge set at turn completion followed by a rotary push off move through the next transition. Not exactly a model of modern skiing now is it.
Rogan stirred up a lot of emotions with his article. Especially from the tip and carve campers. Edging biased turns are fun but I defy anyone to offer them as anything more than one way to turn. The ski world is wider than that and it takes more than one type of turn to play in that wider world.

post #10 of 159
  JustAnother, why not answer Si's question?  You're attempting to address a question that I might ask, but Si took pains to make it clear that that was not his question.  He had the courtesy to start a new thread to keep the discussion pure rather than piggybacking on the rogan thread. 
post #11 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




because the simple act of point your feet where you need to go, keeps people in balance better than just saying tip this skis and balance on it. Alot of people cant keep up with a railed or nearly railed ski. 


 

Let's not raise a red herring argument about railed or nearly railed skis.  That is not an issue here where we are talking about prodcuing a turn with a focus of minor to moderate degrees of tipping.  Maybe I should just reply in a similar fashion to what you did and say maybe I'm just able to teach tipping better than you?
post #12 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Si,  The myth of passive leg rotation is just that. The tibial plateau displaces laterally or medially as the boot cuff tips, so does the distal end of the femur. Wanna guess what the proximal end of the femur does when this happens? The idea of passively displacing the knee medially or laterally is erroneous since any lateral displacement of the knee involves active muscle usage. Rotating the leg so the patella externally rotates also requires active muscle engagement. Which as you tip the skis must happen BTW. So while you might choose to focus on the distal parts of the leg and the cuff of the boot tipping, it can't occur without the proximal end of the leg actively moving.

Another thought here is that levering front to back and tipping side to side assumes a level platform, add slope angle to the equation and the skis need to move in three dimensions not just two. In addition the lever off the tip to create a moment of inertia and thus rotate the skis around the tips. Without some active leg steering this move would produce a whole body rotation and way more angular momentum than needed. Add another problem from the fact that the excess angular momentum would need to be arrested. Typically it's arrested with a strong edge set at turn completion followed by a rotary push off move through the next transition. Not exactly a model of modern skiing now is it.
Rogan stirred up a lot of emotions with his article. Especially from the tip and carve campers. Edging biased turns are fun but I defy anyone to offer them as anything more than one way to turn. The ski world is wider than that and it takes more than one type of turn to play in that wider world.


Jasp, I think we are different pages here.  First of all I tried to keep my question in the realm of human actions on the skis - tipping and twisting.  I think if you check I defined steering in a very narrow sense to try and keep that focus.  I hope we can keep the discussion within that framework.

Secondly, I only included the comment about active/passive hip rotation because a tipped ski can produce a turning force that turns the leg and produces a degree of passive hip rotation which some here like to point to as steering.  A discussion of the muscle mechanics of actively tipping vs. twisting the skis is an interesting discussion but not one that I think is relevant to what I am talking about.  I think my question is much more basic than that.  The only thing you have to accept is that tipping the skis and twisting the skis are different movements.
post #13 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post




Welcome back from the Fortess of Solitude (although if it's foggy you must be in Sandpoint).

Here are two possible reasons. When teaching I often isolate and focus on things with "Here's what I see. Here's what I want to see. Here's how to do it." or "Instead of this, do that" type teaching. It makes things very simple for students to positively change their skiing. Whatever "it" is, if it's some times more effective, then those times would be a good time to isolate and focus on whatever it is.
 

Thanks therusty, a reasonable answer to my question (especially as I employed the word "ever" in it).  To go further, could you expouse on your weighting of the the more general foci of tipping v.s. twisting and how this relates to your teaching?
post #14 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post




Welcome back from the Fortess of Solitude (although if it's foggy you must be in Sandpoint).

 

I'm not sure how much time I'm going to spend in Solitude anymore given that I'm on retirement income and I've got a pretty nice resort nine miles up the mountain!
post #15 of 159
Then you may have to move Solitude to the previously part of your location, eh?

I spend more time teaching tipping than steering, I don't teach skiers to twist. I teach my students what they need to have more fun,


BTW - I think JASP's last post is a perfect example of why pros need to isolate and focus on what they teach students. Pros need to know that stuff. They need to teach that stuff .... to other pros. They don't need to teach it to students.
post #16 of 159
Speed control
The easiest way to teach a hockey stop to a newbie is unweight, pivot, edge. 
The easiest way to teach effective speed control is to blend the hockey stop into their turns.

If instructors stuck to tipping there would be more newbies hitting the snow fence down by the lift coral.
post #17 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

  The only thing you have to accept is that tipping the skis and twisting the skis are different movements.

At the risk of killing another thread, I'll jump in here.  As a student who spends a lot of time trying to figure out what all the instructors are arguing about, I will say that I am not sure that this statement is true.  If I want to be a brat, I could define tipping as lifting the tip of the ski higher or lower than the tail, and I could describe twisting as a longitudinal movement. 

As someone who jumped on Lito's bandwagon years ago, I thought that I was purely "tipping" and performing a "pure carve".  Once I started taking lessons in earnest several years ago, video of my skiing showed me to be a poser at best.  None of my coaches has mentioned the word tipping to me, and only recently has the word "twisting" come up ( as in "twisting in the hip joints, not the feet").  Finally this year, I am putting occasional railroad tracks in the snow -- one of the sensations that I am concentrating on is how my hip joints feel "twisted" at different points of the turn.  Video shows my hips facing more "down the hill", and my skis certainly look like they being tipped.

My points:

a) when it is all distilled down, I do not think that I can turn dynamically if I tip without twisting or twist without tipping.

b) what I need to learn and perform, may be entirely different from what the next student needs to master.

c) in these discussions (here and elsewhere), few people pay attention to the differences in how a student learns, and how different instructors may teach most effectively.

d) i.e., without effective communication between student and instructor, these words are all just mumbo-jumbo.

Sorry to get off topic and kill the thread, but my keyboard would not let me stop typing this...
post #18 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Speed control
The easiest way to teach a hockey stop to a newbie is unweight, pivot, edge. 
The easiest way to teach effective speed control is to blend the hockey stop into their turns.

If instructors stuck to tipping there would be more newbies hitting the snow fence down by the lift coral.
 
An interesting and salient comment Ghost.  My instructor friends who encouraged me to teach at Aspen last year know my preferences and warned (ribbed) me about this potential outcome with my students.  Except for one individual who needed a little extra attention in this regard (one whose alignment was severely off BTW), once the skiers I worked with learned how to release from one set of edges to another they had no difficulty turning/twisting the skis to bring them around quite quickly if needed.  I never tried to restrict them in anyway from doing this.  When teaching release and small tipping movements I never saw the dreaded railing into the snow fence, although I had one couple and another pair of friends as "TLC's" who had that problem after their 1st day in another beginner magic class.  While I admit to a little trepidation in these cases, they all responded very well within an hour to the medicine of release and tip and went from wanting to give up on skiing to what I'm pretty sure are going to be regular skiers.  I'm not trying to say that my minimal teaching experience warrants strong generalization but it's what I've got to respond to your comment.
post #19 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbinder View Post




At the risk of killing another thread, I'll jump in here.  As a student who spends a lot of time trying to figure out what all the instructors are arguing about, I will say that I am not sure that this statement is true.  If I want to be a brat, I could define tipping as lifting the tip of the ski higher or lower than the tail, and I could describe twisting as a longitudinal movement. 

As someone who jumped on Lito's bandwagon years ago, I thought that I was purely "tipping" and performing a "pure carve".  Once I started taking lessons in earnest several years ago, video of my skiing showed me to be a poser at best.  None of my coaches has mentioned the word tipping to me, and only recently has the word "twisting" come up ( as in "twisting in the hip joints, not the feet").  Finally this year, I am putting occasional railroad tracks in the snow -- one of the sensations that I am concentrating on is how my hip joints feel "twisted" at different points of the turn.  Video shows my hips facing more "down the hill", and my skis certainly look like they being tipped.

My points:

a) when it is all distilled down, I do not think that I can turn dynamically if I tip without twisting or twist without tipping.

b) what I need to learn and perform, may be entirely different from what the next student needs to master.

c) in these discussions (here and elsewhere), few people pay attention to the differences in how a student learns, and how different instructors may teach most effectively.

d) i.e., without effective communication between student and instructor, these words are all just mumbo-jumbo.

Sorry to get off topic and kill the thread, but my keyboard would not let me stop typing this...



 

I think this is a very valid point and on topic (as long as we're talking about twisting of the skis in the plane of the skis and tipping of the skis around the long axis of this skis).  One time I was out with Wigs and we were discussing this issue.  As we were standing and talking I demonstrated lifting and tipping my right ski to the little toe side without twisting/turning the ski out.  When Wigs lifted and tipped to the little toe edge his ski turned out.  Obviously, standing on two skis is very different from an angulated countered position of a dynamic turn.  However, the question for me remains as to how much variance there is in people's movements in this regard?  Another question is whether pure tipping movements are something that training and focus can change? 

I'd also comment that you can be doing pure tipping without carving.  A little bit of tipping can produce a nice turn without any twisting of the ski even with the edge far from being locked or railed. Tipping and carving are not synonymous.
post #20 of 159
In theory, I guess people can seperate the two for the purpose of discussion. The two actions can be treated as mututally exclusive movements at opposite ends of the turning spectrum. In practice and consideration of the laws of physics, however, can either of the two movements be done without the other, without taking a spill or having the upper body or legs end up in an incorrect position to make use of the mechanism being employed?

If you twist a completely flat ski without at least a subtle or perhaps visually imperceptible tipping action(irrespective of how the tipping action was initiated), it's going to grab an edge--most likely the inside ski.

Considering the position of the upper and lower body in relation to each other and the fact that the track of the inside ski travels less distance than the outside ski when circumscribing an arc, if you tip a ski without at least a very subtle and perhaps visually imperceptible twist at initiation, on one or both skis, something is going to be out of whack.   

People talk about a 'pure' carved turn, but does it exist? Can an egeded turn exists without at least a small twisting action(steering) at initiation? Twisting or steering may happen so quickly and with such subtle use that a trained eye may not be able to detect it visually, but doesn't it exist in a small amount at the beginning of any turn?

I am not an expert on ski technique and am not even an expert skier. I am thinking here in terms of geometry, physics, and bioemechanics. I think what is being dicsussed here, technique-wise, is the the dominant action present and the degree of tipping or twisting present in a turn and the degrees in which they are employed. 
post #21 of 159
I teach both steering and tipping to my beginners Si. The harmony of opposites. I teach them both first in boots and then with skis on. I teach how they work together to create nice round turns, a quite upper body and versatility of turn shape with directional control. In my mind they are not in opposition to each other or cancel each other out,,,,,they combine to create a sum total greater than the parts.

I will add that a beginner turn that focuses only tipping will leave the student following their skis and not developing any lower/upper body separation, unless something else is introduced. In other words, to get lower/upper body separation, movements in the horizontal plane need to happen. Just as a sole focus on steering can leave the student stuck in their old turn with no mechanism to release their edges or change edge angles through the turn and use their equipment to affect turn shape.

Passive? Well my experience with beginners is that nothing is passive at the start.

You ever get down this way SI we could go out, ski a few runs together and explore.
post #22 of 159
Tipping is a component of steering.  Steering and carving are components of expert skiing. 
post #23 of 159
Rick, in skiing tipping is a component of turning.
post #24 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post



An interesting and salient comment Ghost.  My instructor friends who encouraged me to teach at Aspen last year know my preferences and warned (ribbed) me about this potential outcome with my students.  Except for one individual who needed a little extra attention in this regard (one whose alignment was severely off BTW), once the skiers I worked with learned how to release from one set of edges to another they had no difficulty turning/twisting the skis to bring them around quite quickly if needed.  I never tried to restrict them in anyway from doing this.  When teaching release and small tipping movements I never saw the dreaded railing into the snow fence, although I had one couple and another pair of friends as "TLC's" who had that problem after their 1st day in another beginner magic class.  While I admit to a little trepidation in these cases, they all responded very well within an hour to the medicine of release and tip and went from wanting to give up on skiing to what I'm pretty sure are going to be regular skiers.  I'm not trying to say that my minimal teaching experience warrants strong generalization but it's what I've got to respond to your comment.
I guess it depends on how daring your students are and what terrain they find themselves in.  Anyway I'm playing devil's advocate here, and other than the speed control issue, I cannot think why twisting takes precedence over tilting. 
post #25 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post


You ever get down this way SI we could go out, ski a few runs together and explore.
 

I would enjoy that Ric.  Would it be possible to explore this in the context of some of the lines off the ridge! 
post #26 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Tipping is a component of steering.  Steering and carving are components of expert skiing. 

Rick, is that steering as I defined it in my first post or an expanded version?  I ask, because as I defined it I don't think tipping is a component of steering.
post #27 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post



I guess it depends on how daring your students are and what terrain they find themselves in.  Anyway I'm playing devil's advocate here, and other than the speed control issue, I cannot think why twisting takes precedence over tilting. 

 

The beginner's terrain at Snowmass is especially mild and well suited to first time skiers. 
post #28 of 159
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Quote:
As a point of clarification, is there anyone here who does not use tipping the skis as their main means of turning.

As a follow up question, is there anyone here who teaches some other way to turn skis?
I guess I'll have to speak up here. No, I would not say that I "use tipping the skis as [my] main means of turning," and certainly not as my main means of turning my skis.

Yes, of course, tipping the skis is an important part of almost all turns (as is "untipping" them, both of which fall under the wing of "edging skills"). But "tipping" alone won't do it and, important as edging is, I'm reluctant to single it out as the "main means" for turning.

As many discussions here have explored, recently and repeatedly over the years, accurate turns--even carved turns--involve a blend of skillful tipping movements, accurate pressure control movements (a ski won't carve, no matter how much you tip it, if it has no pressure on it, or if the pressure is in the wrong place), and precise rotary movements (which are involved in most tipping movements, as well as guiding the skis and keeping them on line when they are not on edge).

All three skills are critical. Instructors have long sought to recognize "biases," such as the student who has strong tipping skills but lacks in the other areas. "Edge-biased" skiers run rampant on the slopes these days, and it's ugly! They're the ones who just tip into their "right turn position" and ride the edge-locked skis until they're tired of going right, then quickly shift into their "left turn position" and ride the other way for a while.

A good friend of mine, one of the best skiers and racers I know, and a respected coach (but not a current instructor), insists that he doesn't focus at all on tipping his skis. He "steers them to an edge," he says, referring to a much more complex set of movements, particularly through the "float phase" (following edge release, and ending with edge re-engagement). He focuses on guiding the skis--steering the skis, however you'd like to say it--as his body inclines into the beginning of the turn, while the tipping happens naturally due to the inclination. I agree with him completely.

It's important to note, in light of recent discussions, that this "guiding the skis" absolutely does not imply twisting or pivoting them. On the contrary, it usually involves keeping them on their arcing path, pointing the direction they're going, even when there is no pressure on them. Situationally, of course, it also allows--but does not require--twisting, pivoting, redirecting, and so on, all of which occur frequently in high level skiing (not "arc-to-arc carving").

So no--I do not think of "tipping"--important as it is--as my "main means of turning."

(Why do I feel like I'm walking into an ambush here?)

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

I was missing Bob Barnes' contrarian view on these matters so I thought I'd quote him from the thread that Ghost linked to earlier. 
post #29 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Quote:
As a point of clarification, is there anyone here who does not use tipping the skis as their main means of turning.

As a follow up question, is there anyone here who teaches some other way to turn skis?
I guess I'll have to speak up here. No, I would not say that I "use tipping the skis as [my] main means of turning," and certainly not as my main means of turning my skis.

Yes, of course, tipping the skis is an important part of almost all turns (as is "untipping" them, both of which fall under the wing of "edging skills"). But "tipping" alone won't do it and, important as edging is, I'm reluctant to single it out as the "main means" for turning.

As many discussions here have explored, recently and repeatedly over the years, accurate turns--even carved turns--involve a blend of skillful tipping movements, accurate pressure control movements (a ski won't carve, no matter how much you tip it, if it has no pressure on it, or if the pressure is in the wrong place), and precise rotary movements (which are involved in most tipping movements, as well as guiding the skis and keeping them on line when they are not on edge).

All three skills are critical. Instructors have long sought to recognize "biases," such as the student who has strong tipping skills but lacks in the other areas. "Edge-biased" skiers run rampant on the slopes these days, and it's ugly! They're the ones who just tip into their "right turn position" and ride the edge-locked skis until they're tired of going right, then quickly shift into their "left turn position" and ride the other way for a while.

A good friend of mine, one of the best skiers and racers I know, and a respected coach (but not a current instructor), insists that he doesn't focus at all on tipping his skis. He "steers them to an edge," he says, referring to a much more complex set of movements, particularly through the "float phase" (following edge release, and ending with edge re-engagement). He focuses on guiding the skis--steering the skis, however you'd like to say it--as his body inclines into the beginning of the turn, while the tipping happens naturally due to the inclination. I agree with him completely.

It's important to note, in light of recent discussions, that this "guiding the skis" absolutely does not imply twisting or pivoting them. On the contrary, it usually involves keeping them on their arcing path, pointing the direction they're going, even when there is no pressure on them. Situationally, of course, it also allows--but does not require--twisting, pivoting, redirecting, and so on, all of which occur frequently in high level skiing (not "arc-to-arc carving").

So no--I do not think of "tipping"--important as it is--as my "main means of turning."

(Why do I feel like I'm walking into an ambush here?)

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

I was missing Bob Barnes' contrarian view on these matters so I thought I'd quote him from the thread that Ghost linked to earlier. 
Im sure that was fine back in the day, but you have to moves with the times; also missing from this thread is this statement concerning the MODERN way to turn skis.

"Modern skiing is a process of standing correctly on your skis - of applying to your skis varying edge angles and pressures to achieve a desired performance.

If you roll a ski on edge and apply sufficient pressure, to create reverse camber, the ski will turn"

Warren Witherell, 1972 . How the Racers Ski 
You can read a bit of it here... 
http://books.google.ca/books?id=eaxNpNshiycC&printsec=frontcover&dq=warren+witherell&source=bl&ots=nsNruo_5wW&sig=zTCX4HFKUYI67MEBX8VlHyI5pmY&hl=en&ei=tx5mS5jbBpKENKrh2O0I&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

All kinds of thoroughly modern thoughts in that book.  Mind you I would not recommend running through a rocky stream bed.  Kids, don't try that at home.
post #30 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

...

All kinds of thoroughly modern thoughts in that book.  Mind you I would not recommend running through a rocky stream bed.  Kids, don't try that at home.

 

I guess you gotta read the book. Rocky stream bed?

And I will. Can't know too much about skiing. I've read Killy, the Mahres and LeMaster this year. After Witherall, I might even read Benno Rybizka's book about the Alberg Technique.
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