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The "new" short turn or ooohhh my legs hurt !!!

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
So we got short turns pre new skis … we use a platform to push off and some active legs steering to start the turn, lots of UP un weighting, in short; hit rebound and steer.

We got the “new” short turn … we use the edge of the ski, absorbing the legs as they come back under the center position and extending them back out into the new turn … a "constant controlled platform". i.e. keeping the leg muscles in constant applied motion.

So what is easier physically ???

Try it … in the comfort of your lounge room.

Do some little jumps and move the feet in the new turn direction as you come up and landing with the feet in the new turn direction.

Now try a lower center position, push up from the lower position and as you sink back down again move the feet in the new turn direction.

IMHO doing little jumps is easier on the muscles but harder on the lungs

BUT

Doing little squats is harder on the muscles but easier on the lungs.

SO

We walk with a step off from foot to foot and it is a natural movement WHILST the “new” short turn appears to me to be an unnatural movement due to the “squatting” affect of keeping a constantly loaded leg working i.e. there is no musculature resting involved in the “new” short turn … IF SO how can an, IMHO, unnatural movement be the right movement for ALL situations …. Mmmm

Of course I may be wrong !!!!

comments ?

Oz

[ August 23, 2002, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: man from oz ]
post #2 of 24
All I know is you better be ready to rip, this winter.

No no, HealPusher isn't skiing with me anymore.
post #3 of 24
Unnatural only if you have evolved too far on the evolutionary chain. Around here we all have that nice ape-man stance with the aggressively flexed knee and ankle. (Picture please Ryan) Not the one where the knuckles are dragging, but the one just after. The other one is snowboarding, where another unnatural position is all-serving.
post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by man from oz:
...IMHO doing little jumps is easier on the muscles but harder on the lungs...BUT...Doing little squats is harder on the muscles but easier on the lungs. ...
There another factor that also makes the "new" short turn harder on the muscles. With this turn, there is a good chance you will be pulling increased G's for a substantial fraction of the duration of the turn. Even if your legs didn't have to do any retraction and extension whatsoever, they still would have to support this increased load for a substantial period of time.

On the other hand, using the older edgeset-up-rotary turn, the peak G's are usually smaller in magnitude, and certainly of much shorter duration, making it much easier for your muscles to deal with this (IMHO).

I think that Bob Barnes would likely say that if a recreational skier considers the demands on their muscles to be too large (exercise not withstanding), then, the "solution" is not to go back to the older type of turn, but rather, continue to carve your turns, but use a slower line that will result in lower G's.

Finally, you know what's easier on both the lungs AND muscles than any of the above methods? Sideslip or traverse for 10 seconds with your skis pointed one way across the hill, jerk 'em around as fast as you can, and do the same for 10 more seconds with them pointed the opposite direction. Repeat as many times as necessary to get to the bottom.

I think energy conservation is one of the main reason you see quite a few lower level skiers putzing along like this - it requires much less athleticism than *either* of the short turns you outlined.

Tom / PM
post #5 of 24
Actually, the slower the line, the higher the G's.
A slower line involves the "5-6:00" part of the arc. Which when carved, produces the highest G's in the turn.
post #6 of 24
Get on your road bike and ride 20+ miles every other day. Then throw in some hills. YOU WILL have legs of steel and the lung power in very short order. This is great for the "new" short turn.

One of my gal friends says that she wishes that she had my legs with her experence (She has 20+ I have 2). She could go anywhere without a problem. I tell her, get on the bike, and she too can have them. She's into yoga, not riding.
post #7 of 24
for fastskis...



You'll notice the earlier "neandersnowboarder" position evolves via (VERY) gradual up-unweighting to a more relaxed, over-the-center position.
post #8 of 24
milesb: I think you are confusing a short radius turn with what BobB means by "a slow line". For a given forward speed, you are absolutely right that a short radius turn will produce the highest G's. To get the slow line, you don't necessarily shorten up your radius, you complete more of the turn.

In addition, the whole purpose of the slow line is to allow you to ski along at a lower speed. Since your acceleration in a turn equals the velocity squared divided by radius, even a small reduction in forward velocity goes a long way towards keeping the G's down.

Tom / PM

PS - ryan: I dunno, that last guy looks a bit back to me.

[ August 23, 2002, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #9 of 24
Well, since a picture says a thousand words, I drew one! Same radius turns, with different amounts of the arc. Exaggerated of course.


Hey, cut me some slack, I'm no graphic artist!
post #10 of 24
Note also that a carving ski will not be going a whole lot slower in the slow line than in the fast line.

[ August 23, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: milesb ]
post #11 of 24
Cool picture! I wish I could freehand draw that well.

With respect to G's and where they occur, in your left curve, you put the label, "Small G's" just before the transition, as the radius of the arc is increasing from its minimum value. Your observation about this is absolutely correct, because of the "v-squared over r" formula that I mentioned above. At the point where you put this label, r has started to increase, so the "G's" go down.

With respect to your right curve (with the more complete turns), people do experience the largest G-force exactly at the point where you drew the "Big-G" label because this is the point where your centrifugal force is still high (because you are still in the small radius portion of the turn), and gravity is now adding in the same direction.

So, if I agree with both of your observations, where do we disagree?

It is in your comment about speed. While on some types of snow, your comment that your speed in the second line will not be much less than your speed in the first line is absolutely true, even throwing in that bit of traverse between the turns. On the other hand, the whole purpose of picking an appropriate slow line is to slow you down. So, I would argue, that you simply haven't picked/drawn a slow enough line. In that case, G's get much lower everywhere along your path because of the v-squared dependence in the formula.

The obvious next question is how do you further slow down the line that you have drawn. That can vary with terrain, but in general it would involve going back up the hill even a bit more (or, less satisfactorily, a longer traverse between turns). I'll let BobB field this aspect of your question if he's around.

In my skiing, if the above aren't options, I'll just relax the edges a bit and throw a bit of skidding all throughout my line. The extra friction that results from even a few degree steering angle away from a perfect carve bleeds off speed beautifully when the snow conditions permit you to do this. Conditions in which you need to reduce your skidding to an absolute minimum are usually some form of heavy snow. In this case, you don't run into this problem because the drag on your skis caused by compacting this snow as you travel is usually sufficient to keep your speed reasonable.

Thoughts?

Tom / PM
post #12 of 24
A little skidding makes the day last much longer! [img]smile.gif[/img]

So you would say that the maximum G forces in the fast line should be closer to the apex of the turn? That makes more sense than where I drew it. But I still think that the slow line produces more G's. If you keep turning uphill, the next turn will out of necessity be larger than the last one (at least at the top of the turn), because there will not be enough pressure on the skis to bend them into a tighter turn. Then as they enter the fall line, they will be going as fast or faster than they would have had you ended the previous turn at 5:00. And to make the same average radius turn as the previous one, you are going to REALLY pull some G's when you tighten the end of the turn.
The turns would look like this (exaggerated):


I have a hunch that if you use the arc of the turn to maintain a steady average downhill speed, the g forces will be about the same no matter what radius turn you use. Now if you want to keep going slower and slower, or faster and faster, that's a different story. Maybe we had different goals in mind.

[ August 23, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: milesb ]
post #13 of 24
BTW, that's a really fun way to make turns.
edit: referring to the above picture.

[ August 23, 2002, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: milesb ]
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
BTW, that's a really fun way to make turns.
Yes but if you make those turns all morning long, you will be walking to your car like an old man. The first time i did this my knees felt like they were eighty years old. Funny thing is on snow you notice nothing special but a soon as your start walking in your skiboots things get ugly. My theorie is that due to the high g's and the static loading the fluid in the kneejoint gets pressed out and the lubrication of the joint is pretty mutch gone. After walking around for a few minutes everything returns to normal. So while my muscles are up to those turns my knees aren't. I got wise and alternate turnshapes now. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #15 of 24
well yes but that knee lubrication juice is readily replaced by more beer.
isn't it?
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
double post

[ August 23, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: man from oz ]
post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 
What miles said is about building and controlling Gs using the “currently preferred technique” modern short turn whilst maintaining a constant controlled speed down the slope is basically where I am coming from. Riding a constantly edged ski in a short turn situation builds Gs and so builds muscle loading over a smooth and controlled period, likewise the release is smooth and controlled.

When we lift weights we should also do the lift and release in a smooth and controlled way for maximum muscle work affect. We are also looking for efficiency in movement.

Now when we do "linked short turns" using up un weighting and rebound we are not really using any efficiency in motion scenario so we get little "rest" in our muscle effort.

When riding a carving ski of the "new" type we apply and subtract the pressure through controlled application of the leg muscles ... push & retract and ride the constantly edged ski through the turn.

So to my point.

For a recreational skier are we asking a lot more now in terms of muscle fitness for them to master the "new" short turn and to ride the constantly pressured ski in all conditions?

I agree about the “target technique” of riding a carving "new type" ski but I have concerns about whether this is a realistic (or even safe) goal for many of our recreational skier clients. Technique is one thing in the long road to skier improvement. I also have concerns about teaching people to expose their knees to turn technique that has the pressure applied constantly on a short turning platform in an infinitely changing environment.

Again I am thinking out loud here and looking for input.

Oz
post #18 of 24
Then again Oz - just think how much work they do when they are hanging backwards levering off their knees as lots of them seem to do.....

I watch & MY legs hurt for them

Now being serious - I think that expecting your body to 'take up' a sport for 1 week a year is UNREALISTIC - someone just needs to get that through their thick heads!

My father is 70+ & still plays tennis - I have STRONG memories of him going into 'training' anytime he had a decent gap between matches for any reason - this goes back about 35years or so - he was taught this as a junior soccer player in his teens - why do people NOT understand that one must be fit for the sport you want to play
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
...So you would say that the maximum G forces in the fast line should be closer to the apex of the turn? That makes more sense than where I drew it. But I still think that the slow line produces more G's. ...
Yup, a bit earlier in each turn, closer to the apices, but just a tad downhill from there. I think you did the labels on the "fast line" curve just fine. You correctly labeled the point where you have substantially increased the radius and are about to do the transition as "small-G".

re our discussion on G's in a slow line, I really think BobB's and other people's input would be helpful on this, BUT I'm feeling guilty of causing major thread drift away from Oz's original question (sorry, Oz), so I'm going to start a new thread,

The "Slow Line" (detailed discussion)

on this and copy over the link to your last drawing.

See ya over there.

Tom / PM
post #20 of 24
Oz, I would say yes, you are asking alot of a recreational skier to do the turns you described. I think that they are very specialized, in the same way that competetive bump skiing (style) is very specialized. It's certainly not a viable "bread and butter" turn. Old style short turns with less anticipation, pivoting, and unweighting at initiation seems to be within reach of most skiers. And is probably what most skiers would like to learn to do.
post #21 of 24
Miles, I ski with a bunch who uses both pure carved turns and "old style" rebound turns when short turning and we follow each other down all kinds of terrain and conditions and the old-stylers skiing between carvers have no problem whatsoever keeping the same speed and control.

And pure carving for any length of time is very strenuos and not necessary for a good run, only for self-satisfaction. Carving when needed or wanted and rebounding and wedeling the other times will match the turns to the terrain.

In other words, just because you can does not make it mandatory.

.....Ott
post #22 of 24
Ott,

What up!
post #23 of 24
First of all Ryan, I love the neandersnowboarder thingy, ROFL.

I am not exactly the poster boy for athletic skiing. I certainly find the modern short turn technique much easier on the body than the old up-unweight rebound turns. I find the modern turn to be very natural, almost to natural. To natural meaning, it seems like I ought to be doing more work for my turns. I can ski all day without tiring much, even when going from low altitude to high altitude. I couldn't do that with the older technique. Finishing turns well lessens the need for high G loading.
Maybe I am missunderstanding what everyone is talking about.
post #24 of 24
Pierre, we were talking about short turns, meaning tight turns, not much out of the fall line. Rebounding, the way I do it, does not involve up-unweighting, it involves rebounding, letting the skis do the work.

Bringing the skis around with enough edge set to effect steering but not bend the skis into reverse camber, then setting edges hard at the end of the turn which nearly stops the skis so that by going rigid with my knees the momentum of my weight still going downhill bends the skis very much into reverse camber.

Now, like on a diving board, I allow the rebound to start bouncing me up just enough so that by simultaniously retracting my legs I can swing them under me to the other side and repeat.

The only muscle input I had to do was going rigid in various degrees so as not to bounce too much or absorb too much, the skis did the rest.

That is the old technique for short swing and it works just as well with the new skis when needed.

As you know, we can mix carving and skidding in various degrees even in the same turn. All good skiers increase or decrease edge angles as needed during a turn to go wherever they want to go, especially in longer turns.

But in short turns, where as in wedeln, the head and most of the body of the skier goes straight down the fall line and the trees or rocks are six feet apart, nicely rounded carved turns will make you kiss the wall quickly.

Now to the Gs when you carve all the time, to control speed in short turn you have to bring the skis around much more than in rebound turns and the old knees tend to give out much sooner.

So if you and others feel that carving all the time is easier for you, so much the better, I'll just carve when I need to or want to, rebound whenever and slither some sperm turn wedeln under the chair

....Ott
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