Powder skiing - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhcooley 

Many rockered skis lack significant sidecut. Even for those that have it, it's not necessarily all that effective in the absence of a firm surface.

 

Further, consider that with a standard ski on a firm surface, the sidecut itself makes a major contribution to decambering when tipped and the ability to carve a turn that's smaller than the sidecut radius. Without decambering, you're stuck with the sidecut radius. With decambering, achieved when the ski is tipped and the skier balances against the turn forces, it is possible to carve a turn that is much smaller than the sidecut radius. And with more sidecut, more decambering will happen when the ski is tipped on firm snow. Make no mistake - decambering is a Biggus Dealus for a conventional ski.

 

So now consider the rockered or early rise ski. When tipped, its shape in 3D space (and powder is indeed a 3D medium) forms the necessary arc even without further decambering. You are correct that the shape of the turn is made (or at least strongly affected) by the shape of the ski. In powder, the rocker must be included as part of the shape that contributes to the turn. And, in powder, the decambering is not controlled by the sidecut against a firm surface, since the sidecut has no surface to work against. Instead, assuming the ski is not a 2x4, the ski bends because the skier places more pressure on the middle of the ski in a soft medium.

 

I have owned skis 110mm wide with essentially no sidecut. On firm snow, they were clumsy and required a great deal of active steering. In powder, they were wonderful and they turned when I tipped 'em.
 

So we're thinking that in powder, decambering (whether already decambered due to rocker or not) plays a greater role than sidecut? Thinking about it, I still feel that sidecut must play a factor, but that's just in my head, not really sure.

I know what you mean about tipping a fat ski in powder, it really does work (I have worked in Niseko for the last 2 seasons and ski Chopsticks).

On the pole front, I have lost a pole from not wearing the straps, I like wearing mine, manage to tomahawk a fair amount without stabbing myself as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim. 

 

 

So we're thinking that in powder, decambering (whether already decambered due to rocker or not) plays a greater role than sidecut? Thinking about it, I still feel that sidecut must play a factor, but that's just in my head, not really sure.

 

I know what you mean about tipping a fat ski in powder, it really does work (I have worked in Niseko for the last 2 seasons and ski Chopsticks).

 

On the pole front, I have lost a pole from not wearing the straps, I like wearing mine, manage to tomahawk a fair amount without stabbing myself as well.

 

 

 

 

flex/camber are the biggest contributors to how a ski turns in powder(or alot of different type of 3d snow). this is old news really. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

flex/camber are the biggest contributors to how a ski turns in powder(or alot of different type of 3d snow). this is old news really. 

Haha, old news, cheers.

Bullshit fuscopd,

Jess I didn t mean to start anything so big , it was actually a light hearted remark,

. I just get a much better grip with the strap support, I just dont like the things flapping in the breeze, but I do not loose any sleep over it if someone else does. Lighten up.

I guess as I grew up skiing slopes above the tree line I had not given much thought to them catching on trees, although I will add that my poles have pop out straps for when and if they do get caught.

 I have to learn about this site that many are waiting to eat you alive if you dare make an off the cuff remark. Might be my Aus sense of humour
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuscopd 

If you need your poles, then you are skiing wrong.

 

I ski very fast and do not want to be bouncing down the hill attached to sharp poles when I crash. 

 

 

 

BushwackerinPA,

I was just saying that light heartedly, I do not really care if someone else has them flapping around ,although I will add that I have pop offf straps, that pull out of the top of teh handle if they get caught.

I guess I was always taught to loop my hand around the strap ,, then you can then swing it back to the grip and just pole from your wrist if that makes any sense!

I see your point in the trees tho, but loose a pole in deep powder and you may never find it again.

Anyway its all good fun til someone gets hurt as they say.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

pole strap off stops you arm from being ripped to shreds in the advent of pole stuck in trees. I do agree with you that its easier to use your poles with the strap on properly. I ski with my pole straps on all the time while freeskiing although I do not instruct my students to do the same. Adult students  I tell them the risk and let them make the choice although I do encourage them to not use them in trees. I make all minors remove straps in the woods its just covering my a$$ and nothing more.

 

Poling might be ok for cross country skiing, but for down hill skiing, if you don't want them flapping in the breeze, just leave the straps at home.  If they don't remove easily, CUT THEM OFF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

Poling might be ok for cross country skiing, but for down hill skiing, if you don't want them flapping in the breeze, just leave the straps at home.  If they don't remove easily, CUT THEM OFF.

its would be nearly impossible to ski moguls well all day long with out pole straps. I suspect you idea of what skiing should be holds you back in bumps...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TropicalPow 

BushwackerinPA,

 

I was just saying that light heartedly, I do not really care if someone else has them flapping around ,although I will add that I have pop offf straps, that pull out of the top of teh handle if they get caught.

 

I guess I was always taught to loop my hand around the strap ,, then you can then swing it back to the grip and just pole from your wrist if that makes any sense!

 

I see your point in the trees tho, but loose a pole in deep powder and you may never find it again.

 

Anyway its all good fun til someone gets hurt as they say.
 

 

yeah like I said I leave mine strapped all the time. I have seen people get torn rotator cuffs from a pole getting stuck in branches while skiing though trees.

I have read through this thread a couple of times, and there are a lot of very good advice and much "food for thought". I have a couple of questions, or well some problems I keep running into when I go into deeper snow. First off I have skiied for many years(14-15), but I only ski about 7-16 days a year ie 1-2 weeks a year. I first started skiing, if you can call it that, powder a year or two ago so I only have a couple of weeks experience with powder. My problems are I tend to lose my balance when I try to ski "regularly" as I would on groomers. I've been leaning backwards, but I hear that is a bad thing as you lose control. When I ski as I do on groomers, my downhill ski tends to sink in and it throws me off balance. I have only been skiing powder on my "race" ski, a pair of Head which I think are like 110-70-90 or something like that. This year I have purchased a pair of wide skis(146-110-136 I think they are, its a pair of Icelantic Nomads), reckon this will solve the problem or do I need a stronger stance to keep me in balance and not throw me over the downhill ski?

I would like to think that I have the right technique, have been a ski-instructor last year, and having gone through the anwerter(sp?) thing I would like to think I know what I am doing...at least on groomers and bumps. So me losing balance does that mean my stance and skiing technique is "wrong" or will a wider ski solve my problems?

Kind regards,

Ragyn

Regyn, the fact that one ski sinks down deeper in the snow and you lose your balance is an indiction of a too wide stance. You need to have a closer stance with your feet together to both platform over both skis as one and cut through the snow with a stronger lateral balance. You are correct. You should not lean back. You should stay centered and forwards. Your ski tips should sink down below the surface. But most importantly you need momentum to turn in powder. You need to strongly unweight your skis. This you do by flexing and extending your feet. Start off by going down straight in the fall line and make small jumps up and down. After you nailed this move on moderat pitch try to start turning as you jump up. Once you have nailed then move try to make bigger turns. Move over to steeper terrain and try to keep the movement in your feet only. Or as much as possible. In powder your upper body doesn not move much up and down but your feet flex and extend every time you make a turn. Note that what I have told you here applies to your old skis and submerged powder skiing. Now when you have new wider waist skis you can float on top of the snow and it makes powder skiing much easier. PM me for a video if you are interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 

Regyn, the fact that one ski sinks down deeper in the snow and you lose your balance is an indiction of a too wide stance. You need to have a closer stance with your feet together to both platform over both skis as one and cut through the snow with a stronger lateral balance. You are correct. You should not lean back. You should stay centered and forwards. Your ski tips should sink down below the surface. But most importantly you need momentum to turn in powder. You need to strongly unweight your skis. This you do by flexing and extending your feet. Start off by going down straight in the fall line and make small jumps up and down. After you nailed this move on moderat pitch try to start turning as you jump up. Once you have nailed then move try to make bigger turns. Move over to steeper terrain and try to keep the movement in your feet only. Or as much as possible. In powder your upper body doesn not move much up and down but your feet flex and extend every time you make a turn. Note that what I have told you here applies to your old skis and submerged powder skiing. Now when you have new wider waist skis you can float on top of the snow and it makes powder skiing much easier. PM me for a video if you are interested.

you shouldnt lean back, but your really shouldnt always have your tips in the snow be balance to far forward. Sometime its easier with tips in the snow, sometimes its not. 

On the wider skis you have ragyn just literally ski like a shorter turn on groomer and pay better attention to your upper/lower body separation and fine balance movements. Once you get it powder skiing will make groomer skiing seems like hard work. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

you shouldnt lean back, but your really shouldnt always have your tips in the snow be balance to far forward. Sometime its easier with tips in the snow, sometimes its not. 

 

Its not really possible to ski with the tips submerged all the time but if you need to make them surface in order to turn you are doing something wrong. General rule is that the lighter the pow the easier it is to have the skis down below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

you shouldnt lean back, but your really shouldnt always have your tips in the snow be balance to far forward. Sometime its easier with tips in the snow, sometimes its not. 

 

 

Its not really possible to ski with the tips submerged all the time but if you need to make them surface in order to turn you are doing something wrong. General rule is that the lighter the pow the easier it is to have the skis down below.

so your agreeing with me? 

cause I would agree that you dont need tips to surface to turn. it just they tend to surface during the transition if you going fast enough down the fall line no matter what kinda of ski your on.

like I said earlier in this thread powder is the easiest thing to ski in the world but people brains wont let go and therefor they cant ski powder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

so your agreeing with me? 

 

cause I would agree that you dont need tips to surface to turn. it just they tend to surface during the transition if you going fast enough down the fall line no matter what kinda of ski your on.

 

like I said earlier in this thread powder is the easiest thing to ski in the world but people brains wont let go and therefor they cant ski powder.

 

 

Yes I agree. I think its a myth that the skis stay submerged all the time. The faster you go the more they float to the top. But the way I ski powder I dont ski faster and faster. Insted I stay more and more deep down and use the added resistance to controll my speed. As soon as the skis come to the top they accellerate. Thats why I try to retract my legs going into the fall line and then extend them as I come into the belly of the turn. There are a million ways of doing stuff and I use a bunch of styles and tactics depending on the snow and the slope. When I retract my leggs I also do it for more controll. Sometimes I even jump up in the air. 

The biggest misstake beginners make and something Ragyn should take notisse of is that in powder you need speed. I constantly see newbies struggling trying to make one turn at a time. You need to pick up a lot of speed and link turns. Its much easier to ski a very steep powder run than a flat one. The only thing holding you back is your own fear. Let go of it and put yourself at the lords mercy.

For those that feel the need to lean back when skiing pow, keep in mind that we have a third plane to help us vs. groomed skiing.  Try flexing your ankle - just feathering your toes to the top of your boot.  Your tip will rise and your tail will sink without necessarily changing our body position.  The more speed you have AND/OR the steeper the slope AND/OR the more tip rise/ski width you have AND/OR the more consistent the conditions, the less you have to "feather".  Also, try unweighting your entire turn - think light, especially the first few turns until you get up to speed.  This will feel like you are become very long, but still strong because there is so little pressure on your skis and should help with a natural retraction that keeps our skis floating. Simply cut the turn off before you lose momentum and let them run DOWNHILL.  You can always feather a little more which will sink your tails and help control speed.  We all like face shots and like to get down in it, but that comes naturally.  You can't force a face-shot.  Well, you might be able to force one, but the goal is continuous facials.  :)  I'm not sure if it is speed that is your friend but momentum.  Again, it is easy to slow down in powder, use that to your advantage. 

P.S.  This feathering technique works wonders in breakable crust, wind-crap, refreezing slush, hidden mogul troughs, etc.  If you would like to ski fast and aggressively on the entire mountain in variable conditions, you HAVE to be prepared for 'snow-snakes' and very subtle 'feathering' and unweighting can save your behind.

Hmm: Raced Moguls for years. Actually broke my thump crashing because the straps prevented me from get the pole out of my hand and landing on it. I quit using the straps and it never made a difference.

I don't ride moguls any more because my knees are shot from moguls when I was younger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

Poling might be ok for cross country skiing, but for down hill skiing, if you don't want them flapping in the breeze, just leave the straps at home.  If they don't remove easily, CUT THEM OFF.

its would be nearly impossible to ski moguls well all day long with out pole straps. I suspect you idea of what skiing should be holds you back in bumps...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TropicalPow 

BushwackerinPA,

 

I was just saying that light heartedly, I do not really care if someone else has them flapping around ,although I will add that I have pop offf straps, that pull out of the top of teh handle if they get caught.

 

I guess I was always taught to loop my hand around the strap ,, then you can then swing it back to the grip and just pole from your wrist if that makes any sense!

 

I see your point in the trees tho, but loose a pole in deep powder and you may never find it again.

 

Anyway its all good fun til someone gets hurt as they say.
 

 

yeah like I said I leave mine strapped all the time. I have seen people get torn rotator cuffs from a pole getting stuck in branches while skiing though trees.

Good information on this thread about skiing in POW

I used to always wear by straps,  but it got caught under the snow on a tree branch or something during a pole plant.  I thought it was going to pull my arm at of socket and made a nice wipe out for my friends to watch. Needless to say,  I don't wear my straps and don't lose my poles or have an issue unless there is a major major wipe out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragyn 

I have read through this thread a couple of times, and there are a lot of very good advice and much "food for thought". I have a couple of questions, or well some problems I keep running into when I go into deeper snow. First off I have skiied for many years(14-15), but I only ski about 7-16 days a year ie 1-2 weeks a year. I first started skiing, if you can call it that, powder a year or two ago so I only have a couple of weeks experience with powder. My problems are I tend to lose my balance when I try to ski "regularly" as I would on groomers. I've been leaning backwards, but I hear that is a bad thing as you lose control. When I ski as I do on groomers, my downhill ski tends to sink in and it throws me off balance. I have only been skiing powder on my "race" ski, a pair of Head which I think are like 110-70-90 or something like that. This year I have purchased a pair of wide skis(146-110-136 I think they are, its a pair of Icelantic Nomads), reckon this will solve the problem or do I need a stronger stance to keep me in balance and not throw me over the downhill ski?

 

I would like to think that I have the right technique, have been a ski-instructor last year, and having gone through the anwerter(sp?) thing I would like to think I know what I am doing...at least on groomers and bumps. So me losing balance does that mean my stance and skiing technique is "wrong" or will a wider ski solve my problems?

 

Kind regards,

Ragyn

Ragyn, it sounds like some of your pressure control movements are a little late. Whether it be groomers or pow at the finish of your turn you should allready be moving off your downhill leg onto what at that moment is your uphill leg and is about to become your new outside leg. If you are hard on the old outside downhill leg at the bottom of your turn you will drive down into the snow and fall forward, hence the propencity to leaning backwards. I suspect your edging movements occur a little late too. being more neutral and flexing through the finish will allow your skis to come up and you to roll onto the new edge early in the turn allowing you to move away from the "bracy" hard leg at the bottom that throws you off. While important to be more 50/50 on powder you will still have more pressure to the outside foot and long-leg/short-leg just perhaps not as much. If you don't you will likely be leaning in on all your turns. If you look at pics of great big-mountain skiers you will see very flexed outside skis when they are rocking it, slower speeds, not so much.