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Skis too long, too wide, or just unlucky? Views please on my Rossi 180cm 9X Oversize (CX80)

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
 So...last season I grabbed a pair of 180cm CX80's for a cheater GS ski (I also have the FIS ski) and was going to race a full season of Masters. Around day 4... smash! Shattered collarbone, broke both arms. Figure in bad visibility I must have turned right with the camber falling away to the left - . 1 year later, still rehabbing, but, got back on them the other day. Skied them just fine - in fact, quite easy at speed.

BUT... was on them pushing the short radius a bit, when I crossed the tips and fell - onto the same shoulder same direction.

I've sent them in to have the edges reset from 3* & .75* to 3* & 1* and have them detuned a bit lower down the shovel. Tech says I'm having trouble with the width. Can't decide what to do - when at speed in the turns, they're great - but as I broke myself last year, I'm assuming unforgiving. NEver been beaten up by a ski before.

Am I just superstitious? I raced Fischer RC 175 the year before and it was just not enough ski (too tight on the radius). 

Anyone want to beam positive reinforcement? My buddy says to can 'em. Not racing this year (probably not ever unless light house league) and could go 175 or Dynastar 4X4 178cm... Arrrggghhh! 

6'1"
200lbs
post #2 of 27
OUCH!

Question: have you had a coach look at your form on these skis or on the Fischers? 
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Yes, to the coach - ex-world cupper and Nat'l team guy here, so he's been a big help. 

Solid on both. Had new boots last year (ouch - too many equipment changes. must be holdover from golf - lol). Different sweet spot on both, so fishers were a bit more forward. The Rossi sweet spot I can find in my sleep. But the new boots had a shim that was pushing me forward - the coach thinks it affected my stance on the spot of the ski - we pulled the shim and voila! more dynamic, etc, etc.

I ski the slalom carver in the 165 and the shovel/tail are same dimensions as the 180's. This week was definitely the width on the 180's that was bugging me. I may have my feet a bit close together, but will give a bit more separation this Friday. Once the CX80's (9X's) are in the turn, they are like butter.

I'm thinking maybe I just had them too tuned up - I tuned them like my FIS skis - maybe the wider shovel with all that edge made them too hooky? 

Last bit - I know this is stupid, but I had a PREMONITION (there, I said it) last year I was going to wipe. It affected me for like the first 15 days on snow. Then finally I got over it and started to ski aggressive, then bang... lights out. Doh.
post #4 of 27
Sounds like a case of bad mojo.  I don't think the skis or the tune is to blame.
post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Bad mojo. Could be --- but I don't discount the issue of getting used to new skis. But there is no doubt - this ski has gotten into my kitchen. Hate the idea of shifting it - anyone else fight the 180 Rossi's? 

I also noticed they took off the club racing graphics this year (not calling it the 9X Oversize any more). Gonna tame the suckers this Friday and bend them to my will. Grrr.
post #6 of 27
ever think that maybe you just screwed up?
post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 
 I'm noticing a trend on this site - lol

Absolutely I screwed up - but I have now had the same fall, same direction twice, with no others. So I am talking about adjusting equipment to suit 1. and error in my technique (can happen - especially with a wonky knee) 2. help get me better in control of the tips. I'm not so hot on the ski 'em as they lie stuff - like golf clubs, I think skis should be fitted to match your swing. 

Q: These have felt like they are long in the tips - hence the trepidation... I am considering moving the binding a cm forward - any thoughts? Thanks!
post #8 of 27
If you do not trust them, get off of them.  They won't ski better without confidence in them.
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by csr_jr View Post

was on them pushing the short radius a bit, when I crossed the tips

You will have to explain this.   Why in the world would you cross the tips?  How did this happen?  Did the outside ski just bite, fold up and cross the path of the inside ski?
post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by csr_jr View Post

 So...last season I grabbed a pair of 180cm CX80's for a cheater GS ski (I also have the FIS ski)


I raced Fischer RC 175 the year before and it was just not enough ski (too tight on the radius). 
 

...see a trend here??  Now perhaps I am missing something, but why, if the RC was not enough radius, would you go and buy another cheater which would have a similar problem.?  If your FIS ski is the 27m i can see why it is not ideal (hard work for most of us) but looking around a lot of us in masters are sticking with the previous  >21 m ski (or the womens version @~24m if going for a new one)  as the best setup  Most of the cheaters tend to exhibit exactly the tendencies you have identified, especially with courses being set for a 27m ski
post #11 of 27
I am 6' 170 lbs and ski the CX80 in a 170.  I do know what you are talking about.  When I first got them, I too was having trouble with short radius, though only for a couple of runs.  I found that the outside ski bit, while my inside wanted to just ride out a GS-turn.  I don't know if it makes a huge difference, but I also should add that I was skiing on soft snow, which could attribute to the problem.  On hardpack/ice, these things rock.  Anyway, I figured it out pretty quickly and haven't had problems since.  My best advice would be to always keep your inside foot under you and always have control of it, just in case your outside ski has any ideas.  Once I got used to the ski and skied it more aggressively, it has been great.  

Also, I'm suprised to hear that you were thinking of moving the binding forward, as I think that the skis binding point is if anything too far forward.  Ultimately, I think the 175 would have suited you better, but the best advice I can give is to just keep skiing it and always ski it aggressively.  It wants to be pushed.

Hope I was of help.

Tyler
post #12 of 27
Let me take a stab at this because I have all of the same equipment in the quiver.  For reference, I am an OK racer and a big-time tech head so I work on setup all the time.  I am about 5'10" and 185 so about the same size give or take a burger & fries.

I absolutely LOVE the CX-80.  I have the 180cm with a 19m radius.  It's a great ski and I look very pretty on it.  I have never and will never take it into a race course - it's just too turny.  The temptation to have the ski do the work with regards to radius is strong, yes, but if you make any sort of a mistake at speed, the ski will try to kill you (you know this).  I don't think that the ski is intended to go that fast nor respond to race(r) level impulses. I ski those buggers from the middle and never load the tips too hard.  i suspect that's why they tried to kill you

Here's the fix: ski the CX80s, race on the 9Xs.  And before you tell me that the radius is too big, read the rest of this post.  

The issue with the 25m 182cm race ski is not sidecut, it's flex.  If you remove the toe binding and remove the forward riser plate - you will see that there is a connector plate that has two orange bits of elastomer on either side of it.  remove the connector and the bits of elastomer.  Then reattach the lifter and the binding in the same holes.  what you have created is a super soft race ski that is a breeze to race on.  It's a snap to engage the shovel but the tail will still release down the hill, not across like the flared tail of the CX-80 does.  The other thing I did was to add a 4mm rossi lifter under the toe binding and my skiing improved.  i found it easier to get on the front of the ski earlier in the turn.

The tune on all of the skis is 0.5 / 3, CX80s included.

Hope the above helps.  Ski fast and have fun!

Cheers.
post #13 of 27
Thread Starter 
Great feedback guys! Thanks!

I adjusted the tune today and eased the bevel back along the tip and it's made a huge difference. Also, as Eastskier44 mentioned, I've been really watching the inside ski quite carefully. The tips were definitely too catching previous and detuning them a bit felt great. 180 skied fine, but it was variable conditions today - 7" of snow  fell as the day progressed. 

The ski kicked but in the variable conditions, that's for certain (I skied a Volkl Tigershark in the early catchy powder; it had been very warm and even rained just a few days before). 

Definitely have to watch that inside ski and clear it as you make the turn, no doubt!
post #14 of 27
Thread Starter 
 I absolutely LOVE the CX-80.  I have the 180cm with a 19m radius.  It's a great ski and I look very pretty on it.  I have never and will never take it into a race course - it's just too turny.  The temptation to have the ski do the work with regards to radius is strong, yes, but if you make any sort of a mistake at speed, the ski will try to kill you (you know this).  I don't think that the ski is intended to go that fast nor respond to race(r) level impulses. I ski those buggers from the middle and never load the tips too hard.  i suspect that's why they tried to kill you

>>>> YES! I agree - you definitely have to slow this ski down in the transition to keep that tail in line

Here's the fix: ski the CX80s, race on the 9Xs.  And before you tell me that the radius is too big, read the rest of this post.  

The issue with the 25m 182cm race ski is not sidecut, it's flex.  If you remove the toe binding and remove the forward riser plate - you will see that there is a connector plate that has two orange bits of elastomer on either side of it.  remove the connector and the bits of elastomer.  Then reattach the lifter and the binding in the same holes.  what you have created is a super soft race ski that is a breeze to race on.  It's a snap to engage the shovel but the tail will still release down the hill, not across like the flared tail of the CX-80 does.  The other thing I did was to add a 4mm rossi lifter under the toe binding and my skiing improved.  i found it easier to get on the front of the ski earlier in the turn.

The tune on all of the skis is 0.5 / 3, CX80s included.

>>> Wow - this sounds amazing! While I have a table and the basics, but I think I'll solicit some professional help for this scenario. So this brings the radius into about 19 - 21M? 

I had shifted the binding forward a centimeter also to tighten the radius a bit - do you think I should set it back?

Also - on the 4mm riser in the front - do you have a anatomical reason for this? Is it a feel thing? 

The ski felt great as an all-mountain ski - just ripped through everything. Made the Volkls feel like a couple of dead planks (The tigersharks are a solid ski - just boring.)

Great post - Thanks
post #15 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post




...see a trend here??  Now perhaps I am missing something, but why, if the RC was not enough radius, would you go and buy another cheater which would have a similar problem.?  If your FIS ski is the 27m i can see why it is not ideal (hard work for most of us) but looking around a lot of us in masters are sticking with the previous  >21 m ski (or the womens version @~24m if going for a new one)  as the best setup  Most of the cheaters tend to exhibit exactly the tendencies you have identified, especially with courses being set for a 27m ski

I'm with ya - I was over skiing the Fischer cheater I had, hence I went to the FIS, but most of the masters courses we played with here are set pretty open, but WAY inside 27M. This is how the CX-80 came into the quiver. 
post #16 of 27
If I were you I would move the mounting point back to where it is supposed to be.  To me, this ski feels almost too centered.  If you move it up, I really think that you might be losing some stability at speed and performance in GS turns.  That being said, I have never experimented with this; I am just guessing.  Maybe a mere cm won't make that much of a difference.  But there's a guy that wrote a review on the CX80 on here, who moved the mounting point back on the 180.  You might want to take a look at that. 
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post

If you do not trust them, get off of them.  They won't ski better without confidence in them.

I'm with Stranger. It may be all in your head. That's 100% excusable under the circumstances. (Close ski buddy had a similar crash and consequences a few weeks ago.) You don't need to find a technical reason to blame the skis. Take it easy on yourself. Sell them to someone who really wants them, and get something - anything - else that will get your head back in the game and a smile on your face.
post #18 of 27
I would have thought this thread to be a total booter it's not.

Bold = hilarious
This is one of the best tech posts on skis I've seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holimonter View Post

Let me take a stab at this because I have all of the same equipment in the quiver.  For reference, I am an OK racer and a big-time tech head so I work on setup all the time.  I am about 5'10" and 185 so about the same size give or take a burger & fries.

I absolutely LOVE the CX-80.  I have the 180cm with a 19m radius.  It's a great ski and I look very pretty on it.  I have never and will never take it into a race course - it's just too turny.  The temptation to have the ski do the work with regards to radius is strong, yes, but if you make any sort of a mistake at speed, the ski will try to kill you (you know this).  I don't think that the ski is intended to go that fast nor respond to race(r) level impulses. I ski those buggers from the middle and never load the tips too hard.  i suspect that's why they tried to kill you

Here's the fix: ski the CX80s, race on the 9Xs.  And before you tell me that the radius is too big, read the rest of this post.  

The issue with the 25m 182cm race ski is not sidecut, it's flex.  If you remove the toe binding and remove the forward riser plate - you will see that there is a connector plate that has two orange bits of elastomer on either side of it.  remove the connector and the bits of elastomer.  Then reattach the lifter and the binding in the same holes.  what you have created is a super soft race ski that is a breeze to race on.  It's a snap to engage the shovel but the tail will still release down the hill, not across like the flared tail of the CX-80 does.  The other thing I did was to add a 4mm rossi lifter under the toe binding and my skiing improved.  i found it easier to get on the front of the ski earlier in the turn.

The tune on all of the skis is 0.5 / 3, CX80s included.

Hope the above helps.  Ski fast and have fun!

Cheers.
cs_jr,
you should be aware that you may have experienced something that has caused serious injury to several people here - broken legs. It's hard to tell from your description though. What has happened to at least two people occured with slalom skis. The outside tip bit down in what seemed like firm packed powder but wasn't, it then shot across the inside ski stopping skier's feet.  Broken leg resulted - I think 1 in one case and both legs in another. No joke.
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I would have thought this thread to be a total booter it's not.

Bold = hilarious
This is one of the best tech posts on skis I've seen.

cs_jr,
you should be aware that you may have experienced something that has caused serious injury to several people here - broken legs. It's hard to tell from your description though. What has happened to at least two people occured with slalom skis. The outside tip bit down in what seemed like firm packed powder but wasn't, it then shot across the inside ski stopping skier's feet.  Broken leg resulted - I think 1 in one case and both legs in another. No joke.

I don't know what radii, speeds, and forces the CX80 was designed to arc at, but that is the danger in skiing too fast with skis that have too much side cut and may also be too soft for the speed and turn size you are enjoying.   You are nicely smearing a  turn and the ski tip manages to bite in and decides it's going to carve the designed sidecut radius at that tipping angle on hard snow or carve the designed flex radius on deeper but still-heavy-enough-to-bend-the ski snow.  Suddenly your ski folds up and crosses your path. 
post #20 of 27
Another possibility is what happened to me last week.  I was skiing along making some spur of the moment turns, going for more sudden release and sharper turns at speed on my SCs.  I decided to put one more little  zig to the left in before a hard zag to the right.  I hadn't noticed in the flat light, but there was a little dip in the hill just before the slope changed from steep (relative term) to not steep.  My extra zig put my turn initiation right at the slope decrease, imagine starting a turn with your ski tip on the landing after a flight of stairs.  The outside ski tip hitting this landing caused it to make a very tight turn.  Fortunately I was arcing both skis and they didn't cross.  Unfortunately, my mass couldn't make the same tight turn they did at the speed I was going.  Fortunately my bindings released.
post #21 of 27
I was enjoying my auto-turning hard-snow carvers with the wide tips so much more before I started following this thread.   And yes, I do race on them, though it's strictly beer league.

Ghost says, "...the danger in skiing too fast with skis that have too much side cut and may also be too soft for the speed and turn size you are enjoying. You are nicely smearing a  turn and the ski tip manages to bite in and decides it's going to carve the designed sidecut radius at that tipping angle on hard snow or carve the designed flex radius on deeper but still-heavy-enough-to-bend-the ski snow.  Suddenly your ski folds up and crosses your path."

I'm familiar with this, but it happened much more often a couple years ago on a pair of all mountain skis that was not quite enough ski for me, than it happens on my carvers, even though the carvers have more shape. I think your mention of "too soft" in this context is insightful - possibly more of a factor than the sidecut. Generally, a ski has to be really soft to be too soft for me at 135lbs, but when I'm really ripping along on an empty slope all, of a sudden my speed allows me to muster a LOT of energy. In these circumstances, too soft is definitely a bad thing.
post #22 of 27
Just as a way of estimating forces required, the force needed to accelerate a body of mass m around a turn of radius r at speed v is mv^2/r, so if you are going twice as fast around the same turn, it puts just as much force on the ski as if you weighed 4 times as much and took it at the same speed, provided you have enough weight to supply the down force to keep traction and make the ski bite.  Skis are designed to bend a given amount with a given amount of force, usually coinciding with the design radius and speed keeping the intended use and target audience of the ski in mind.  If you take a ski designed to make SL or GS sized turns at SL racing speeds up to SG speeds, you could find trouble.  A recreational sub GS-sized turning ski at GS racing speeds might also fold up quite abruptly. 

It's a compromise though.  Softer skis work much better in softer snow.
post #23 of 27
Thread Starter 
 Great feedback, again.

FYI, the CX80 (mine has graphics of a 9X OVersize - a GS cheater ski) has a radius of 19M+ @ 180cm length and 2 sheets of titanium, so plenty stiff.

First crash last year was so bizarre and flukey - I think I skied off the camber in bad light (similar to the post above, but skied off the top of the stairs - trying to turn on snow that had fallen away) that I have stopped trying to figure it out. However, the slow crash that prompted the post was DEFINITELY because the ski was tuned to hooky up the tip (fyi, I'm the guy who called it on the tune). And the left ski did seem to bite and dodge over the right tip (I was pushing short radius on the flats - I always seem to fall on the frigging bunny hill).

 It was a different ski yesterday, just not twitchy the way it was before now that the bevel has been adjusted and the edge detuned a bit. But I still have to get it out on some shiny hardpack to know for sure
post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by csr_jr View Post

Wow - this sounds amazing! While I have a table and the basics, but I think I'll solicit some professional help for this scenario. So this brings the radius into about 19 - 21M? 

I had shifted the binding forward a centimeter also to tighten the radius a bit - do you think I should set it back?

Also - on the 4mm riser in the front - do you have a anatomical reason for this? Is it a feel thing? 

The ski felt great as an all-mountain ski - just ripped through everything. Made the Volkls feel like a couple of dead planks (The tigersharks are a solid ski - just boring.)

Great post - Thanks

 
The mechanical work I have outlined is pretty easy, but if you are not inclined to mess with your bindings, go to a Rossi race shop. They might tell you you're nuts... just be prepared.  As far as the radius, you are not changing the geometry of the ski so it's still a 25+m radius ski - it's just an easy-to-ski-25m-ski.  You'll be blown away at how easy it is to turn but how stable it still is in a race course.  As an aside, I did the same to my 186s and 191s and really love them that way.

I like skiing the skis from the marked center (centre).  It just feels right to me.

The toe lift is something that I read about on epic (can't cite the thread) and thought I'd give it a whirl.  Some people refer to this as a "gas pedal" and it seems to work.  No recalls on this either ;)  No anatomical need for this - just a feel thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I would have thought this thread to be a total booter it's not.

Bold = hilarious
This is one of the best tech posts on skis I've seen. 

Glad you like the post. 
post #25 of 27
I ski on the 9S oversize 165s, and find them a lot more forgiving and versatile  than a true consumer race ski.  Have them at 1 degree base though and sharpened up to the tip and tail.
post #26 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holimonter View Post



The mechanical work I have outlined is pretty easy, but if you are not inclined to mess with your bindings, go to a Rossi race shop. They might tell you you're nuts... just be prepared.  As far as the radius, you are not changing the geometry of the ski so it's still a 25+m radius ski - it's just an easy-to-ski-25m-ski.  You'll be blown away at how easy it is to turn but how stable it still is in a race course.  As an aside, I did the same to my 186s and 191s and really love them that way.

I like skiing the skis from the marked center (centre).  It just feels right to me.

The toe lift is something that I read about on epic (can't cite the thread) and thought I'd give it a whirl.  Some people refer to this as a "gas pedal" and it seems to work.  No recalls on this either ;)  No anatomical need for this - just a feel thing.


 

Yes, I can't wait to try this. I have a tech I can bring this to who will do this for me, I'm sure. I'll cut the plate first and then add the lifter as a second variable after skiing once. Hopefully I can get on them next Tuesday

I am taking the 9X Oversize to Mt Tremblant this weekend to let them run a bit. Looking forward to it!! 
post #27 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post




I'm with Stranger. It may be all in your head. That's 100% excusable under the circumstances. (Close ski buddy had a similar crash and consequences a few weeks ago.) You don't need to find a technical reason to blame the skis. Take it easy on yourself. Sell them to someone who really wants them, and get something - anything - else that will get your head back in the game and a smile on your face.

It wasn't in my head BEFORE I crashed...lol! 
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