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What's the difference....

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Between an "instructor" and a "teacher"?
post #2 of 22
By the dictionary ... nothing. From the slant of the question, I guess that you could imply that the depth and duration of relationship the is greater for a teacher than an instructor.

Yet, that's arguable. I had a relatively long and "meaningful" relationship with my drill instructor, that encompased all facets of my life from behavior to physical education. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #3 of 22
Yeah & the sports teachers I had at school were all crap (bar one who was very sick but tried)....

OTOH my fencing coach was great - taught me SOOOOO much about how to use my muscles...

My ski instructors are also terrific...

I have cooked food & arranged birthday parties etc for the latter 2... I wouldn't even have thought about doing anything for any of those teachers....
post #4 of 22
instructors tell what to do
teachers show how to do it

Instructors believe what they bring to the situation to be most important

Teachers believe what the student brings to the situation to be most important.

[ December 03, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by yuki:

I had a relatively long and "meaningful" relationship with my drill instructor, that encompased all facets of my life from behavior to physical education. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
ummmm....
post #6 of 22
Roto .... "Those weren't pillows" .... John Candy :

I meant in the sense that the SOB had me doing physical drill, push ups and marching in place from 3 am to 9 pm for three miserable months.
post #7 of 22
Nicely put, Roto. A really good teacher has the ability to not only express the material in a cogent fashion, but, to also personalize his descriptions, demonstrations, and expressions, tailoring them to specific individuals and their ideosyncrasies. I have had many instructors, as opposed to "teachers", who knew their material well but were very limited in ability to express it outside of the descriptions they understood it by. In other words, if you don't understand what they're saying-well, you'll just have to keep bulling around in the china shop 'til you do! Some people get it, some don't. With a good teacher the % that end up getting it is higher, as is the enthusiasm factor in the process.

I think the idea of "instructor" conjures up the image of someone passing on information about a well defined body of knowledge and then it is up to the recipient to make sense of it/commit it to memory/become facile with it,etc. I see the instructor as primarily a passer of knowledge with less responsibility? to show the big picture and become involved with semi-related,though pertinent and enriching, tangents to the main body of information.

A teachers role seems to me to be much more involved with giving the individual a number of choices about how to view, use, or relate to the material that both he or the instructor can pass along. Teachers take bodies of knowledge and make them come alive with the express purpose of catching you up in the excitement of learning and discovering things not only about the subject, but, about yourself and your beliefs as well. Good ones challenge you and invite you to become more than you ever realized you could be.

Obviously, teachers and instructors as defined above, are varying combinations of each other when put into a human context. I think many people would not make the differentiation that I have. People interchange the two terms constantly, but, I do view the two as having differences, not two words for the same concept. At least, that's my take on it.

joel

p.s. Hope you folks out west keep getting pounded so it's real,real nice when I come out to visit and play. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Roto:
instructors tell what to do
teachers show how to do it

Instructors believe what they bring to the situation to be most important

Teachers believe what the student brings to the situation to be most important.
Actually from my experience it has been the other way around....

Those labelled instructors were open to any form of learning while the "teachers" had done nice dinky courses that showed them HOW I was to learn... & I never fitted.... for mental stuff I learn weirdly but fast... for physical stuff I just can't do what they think I SHOULD....
post #9 of 22
I've heard eloquent arguments for ski pros to call themselves one or the other, and have concluded that the difference is semantic and any bias you have for one or the other is colored by your experience(s) with those so labeled.

I kind of like maestro, though relatively few fit those boots.

Disski, You seem to have contempt for those like myself who studied in a school of education as a background in teaching. There are a lot of women in PSIA who have teaching credentials or advanced degrees in education. Marie Shaw, Johanna Hall, Maggie Loring are just a few of PSIA's finest who have their institutional paper. I think I understand what you mean--that a lot of theories dancing in a person's head ain't jack compared to her ability to act effectively in the here-and-now to what's really happening with this student--not how this student fits into that model.

I can't subscribe to that aboriginal argument that teachers are born and not made. I think there's a peptide on one of the chromosomes of certain people that make them want to dedicate themselves to service, and teachers are in that bunch. But they are not teachers just because they have a desire to serve. You're not a teacher until you have mastery in the subject, and part of that subject has got to be how people learn.

How about the word Lecturer, another university title? Did anyone have a parent who was a Lecturer? Did their parenting advice get through, or did you hit mute when the jaws started flapping? I fear that the Lecturers in ski school are those who haven't attacked their ignorance in the realm of learning and sport psychology.
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
...I fear that the Lecturers in ski school are those who haven't attacked their ignorance in the realm of learning and sport psychology...
This comment hits very close to home for me, and is applicable to many people. I work very hard at not doing this when actually teaching (vs. in written discussion). For example, Nolo, you will be happy to know that I took your recommendation and read "The Yikes Zone" a few months ago.

Of course, my real solution is to vent all such tendencies of mine in this direction on the inhabitants of EpicSki. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

Tom / PM
post #11 of 22
I am glad to hear that, Tom. I am reading Eric and Rob DesLauriers' Ski the Whole Mountain. I feel like we're on the same page, especially the stuff like "Transition, the Key to Flow."

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. There are certain subjects that are expository and not exploratory, and you excel at that. If a teacher has a lot of material to cover--I'm talking depth as well as breadth--the lecture is the most economical method bar none.

So, a lecture is a valid teaching method. A Lecturer is someone who thinks teaching (/parenting) is a matter of telling and that people should do what they're told--if they don't they're stupid or deaf. If they aren't doing it despite what you have told them, then they need to be told some more in a louder tone and at a slower speed. The title comes more from the parenting style than the academic lectern.
post #12 of 22
Nolo, no offense whatsoever was taken, and my feelings were not hurt in the slightest. It would never have even occurred to me that you might have had me in mind. I simply thought your comments were appropriate to me and I would back them up from personal experience.

My propensity for lecturing (at least in the academic sense as well as in the written word) is well known to my friends, colleagues and now, EpicSki participants. It has gotten to the point where it is even the subject of good nature ribbing. A friend once threatened (tongue-in-cheek) to write on the men's room wall, "For a good explanation, see Tom" .

As you said, there are times when lecturing is appropriate, and times when it is not, and I try to make sure I always have the distinction in mind. I *never* (well, almost never) "lecture" to my daughter.

Again, I think you made an absolutely excellent point.

Tom / PM

[ December 04, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #13 of 22
As a recipient of instruction and of teaching, I see the difference in that an instructor teaches you the drills to develop and use a set of skills. A Teacher to me is an instructor who teaches the concept as well as the application; who introduces you to the mountains and the mountains to you - safety not as in Traffic Safety 101, but as respect for the mountains; skills not as in which toe to press, but the whole gamut of the what, when, how, and - always - the why of skiing.

In art, it would be the difference between an instructor who says, "if you mix blue and yellow, you will get green" - and the Teacher who teaches you to appreciate art, to learn different styles and tools of making art, to feel the difference between pastels and oils, bronze and marble, and why it is so hard to play a violin concerto on the piano, and a piano concerto on the trumpet.
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Roto:
instructors tell what to do
teachers show how to do it

Instructors believe what they bring to the situation to be most important

Teachers believe what the student brings to the situation to be most important.
Actually from my experience it has been the other way around....

Those labelled instructors were open to any form of learning while the "teachers" had done nice dinky courses that showed them HOW I was to learn... & I never fitted.... for mental stuff I learn weirdly but fast... for physical stuff I just can't do what they think I SHOULD....
</font>[/quote]just cuz someone sez they're a teacher doesn't mean they really are one. It might be their job title, but that doesn't mean much really. It's the performance that counts.
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
Disski, You seem to have contempt for those like myself who studied in a school of education as a background in teaching. There are a lot of women in PSIA who have teaching credentials or advanced degrees in education. Marie Shaw, Johanna Hall, Maggie Loring are just a few of PSIA's finest who have their institutional paper. I think I understand what you mean--that a lot of theories dancing in a person's head ain't jack compared to her ability to act effectively in the here-and-now to what's really happening with this student--not how this student fits into that model.

.
Not exactly contempt - I just did not find them useful people in my life.... I think I could count on 1 hand my teachers I actually respect.... from all those years at school that is a sad statement.... when you consider I was a scholarship student at an expensive girls school it is even worse...

The education system simply tends to fail the students at either end of the "normal" spectrum... at least here in Oz...

I know so many very bright students labelled as "poor concentration" (bored to tears) or "behavioural problem" or simply ignored because they will quietly be doing something else...
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
I've heard eloquent arguments for ski pros to call themselves one or the other, and have concluded that the difference is semantic and any bias you have for one or the other is colored by your experience(s) with those so labeled.

.
Exactly
post #17 of 22
there is a theory - which I posted in another thread - that just as learners evolve - do does instruction.

therefore, the evolution of instruction is something like this...

(lowest level) Teacher
Instructor/Professor
Trainer
Facilitator
(highest level) Coach

Think about who your teachers were and what their jobs were: grades k-12 and their job was to TEACH you subjects. (You were required to "pass")

Instructor/Professors come into play at University level. They tell you information and will assist you in learning if you seek them directly. The learner must work to learn.

Trainers are typically in the professional setting. You chose to take a course and they are the professionals who "teach". It's the learner's job to take the information and continue their learning on their own (you won't LEARN it all in a 1-2 day course).

Facilitators bring people together to assist a knowledge exchange. Facilitators do not INTERFERE or get involved in away - they simply "facilitate". (NOT REALLY appropriate in snow sports)

Coach's work with people who know how to do things, have the ability... the coach improves performance. The coach expects the "learner" to do many things on their own.

So - IMHO ... the role I play depends upon the level of lesson being taught. Booth Creek calls the folks in their "SnowSports" Department "Coaches". I like that alot!

Agree? Disagree? Comments?

kiersten
post #18 of 22
I like it, Kieli. I notice that it assumes the leader has a choice of role to play--when he or she may be limited by his/her range. Another interesting theory about new teachers says they follow Maslow's hierarchy--concerns about survival predominate in the early days; then belonging and peer respect become influential, and so on. Anyway, it takes a long time for a new teacher to become preoccupied with STUDENT learning and not "How am I doing?"
post #19 of 22
Disski: I get the feeling that you are being a bit hard of instructors. Your disability is quite unique and in order to accomodate your needs, you can't expect gym, ski, blade or other instructors to acclimate and educate for just you. If you call them and clearly explain you problems ... and they have a clear understanding ... and they indicate that they can provide the service, you may have a complaint.

What percentage of the population has your disability? Do you provide the school with any materials to educate themselves in order to help you?

I have a very bad hip, a tremor and some other signs of aging and wear and tear, so I am not totally unaware of limitations placed on the individual and can identify with you in some respects. But, I know that I have had to work harder to overcome them. Doing martial arts with a bad hip wasn't easy and many times, I was in pain that others couldn't understand, but that was MY problem ... not the instructors ... If I wanted the black belt, I was the one who had to work through it.

In the process, I stopped focusing on the goal and just started enjoying every task, moment by moment ...

The identity and mind set is that "I am a skier" ... not a "disabled skier" .... Got a couple of "black belts" too ... they are not "disabled black belts" ...

Here lies the difference .... teacher, instructor .. whatever ... I had a Sensi that had me get rid of the mind set.

A Sensi .... is NOT a teacher .... not an instructor and is NEVER your friend. He is the "face of all of the others before you" ..... in a lineage that passes knowledge and acknowledges all of those who have come before him. If I limped or showed pain I was told "GO HOME" .... "NO ONE SICK HERE" .... and "Never give up!"
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by yuki:
Disski: I get the feeling that you are being a bit hard of instructors. Your disability is quite unique and in order to accomodate your needs, you can't expect gym, ski, blade or other instructors to acclimate and educate for just you. !"
Yuki - read my posts again... the gym ski skate & fencing instrutcors/coaches were the ones that tried everything to get me to do the activity....

The school teachers were the ones that failed in general (a few standout exceptions....) In academia I am at the top end of the bell curve... Just I find it hard to put any effort into the situation because of the way it is taught .... totally boring.... why work for more than 90%????? it is just not productive time (the good ones set me other goals that were more suited to me & my learning style)
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by ihavethesecret:
Between an "instructor" and a "teacher"?
'Instructor' implies accreditted certification. 'Teacher' might not be.
post #22 of 22
Now if we could only swing "full tenure" as ski instructors. I could use a sabbatical to Norway ... say ... to get in touch with skiing and it's roots and heritage. Wonder if the SS director would approve that? [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
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