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Why are the shaped carving skis not being used in speed events.

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
 My new Super G skis are 208's and have the same excact sidecut as my old 212 GS skis (the 4 cm length difference is due to the lower tips on the new skis). Likewise My New Atomic 215 DH skis are exactly the same sidecut as my old 220 Dynastar Descente's (again the 5 cm difference has to do with the poited tip on the old skis. There is no discernable difference . My GS skis are 183 Volkl's and frankly I never really felt they were as fast as my old 212's but then since the FIS changed the amount of gates in GS making more turns and a slower overall race they were adequate. But now GS speeds are getting faster again and Fisher for one is offering a 193 GS hole ski (add back 4-5 CM for the uptuned tip and we are almost back to 200) and the sidecut is much shallowere than any of the other shaped skis). I have always felt the beginner to intermediate skier benefitted from radical sidecuts, it is easier to carve without the discipline,strength and precision that it requires to ski a longer ski with a less radical sidecut (there never were any straight skis). Slalom skis today are fine on a race course but they used to be a great all moutian ski(except in powder or crud) And I think the Fat skis are a huge leap forward for powder, but as an east coast skier and a long time USSA racer with decent results including a couple years on the developmet squad  and over 20 medals/trophies both as a teen as late as a bronze when I was 42 (overall not as a Master) , and still racing speed events at 57. FIS specs for a 2 run Slalom uset to be 30+ gates now as many as 75 so it is a no brainer shorter skis would be better.

In any case if high performance speed oriented skis haven't changed with the shaped ski revolution then have we really improved the sport or just made it easier for beginners and intermediates?
post #2 of 17
You are a superior human being.

Wasn't that what you were waiting to hear?

(Talk about ego masturbation.)
post #3 of 17
Quote:
In any case if high performance speed oriented skis haven't changed with the shaped ski revolution then have we really improved the sport or just made it easier for beginners and intermediates?

The short(ish) answer (for 'carving' skis) is that at very high speeds, you can actually decamber long, stiff, almost-straight skis enough to carve reasonably sane turns.  And if you want to be able to carve really big (>20m radius) turns, you need a ski with a larger 'natural' radius than that.

But at sane speeds/turn sizes, more shape is good for most people's ability to turn.
post #4 of 17
Welcome to Epic!

Current DH and SG turn radii work well with current DH and SG course sets.

DH has changed the least of all the alpine disciplines since your (and my) time. That has a lot to do with the turn radius of your old DHs matching your new ones. Turn radius is only part of what makes the ski turn and go fast, though, so I wouldn't be dragging your old DHs out onto a DH set for modern skis.

Do you want more turns in DH? I don't. SG didn't exist when you were young. You compare your old GS skis with the new SGs; a fair comparison as modern GS skis would have more sidecut than your old GS skis. SG sidecut is between current GS and current DH sidecut, where it should be.

SL, and to a lesser extent GS, has evolved from the old days. The new skis have driven that evolution.

I watched a 71 y.o. man race to within a 5 seconds of a 20 y.o. last weekend in a DH at Keystone. The 20 y.o. was probably doing 80 mph near the finish. There was even a guy that was 79 y.o. He happened to be the 20 y.o.'s grandfather. You have plenty of years ahead of you. Enjoy!
post #5 of 17
I'm having a few problems following the original post.

I'm not sure what "old" skis you're comparing, but pre-shaped ski GS and DH skis did not have the same dimensions as current race skis.

By actual measurement, a 1991 Rossignol 7GK GS ski was 85-65-74, for a sidecut radius of about 56 meters. Current DH skis generally have a sidecut radius somewhere in the 40s; SG have more sidecut than that. Even old-school slalom skis often had less sidecut than current speed skis.

Quote:
since the FIS changed the amount of gates in GS making more turns and a slower overall race
Not sure what you're talking about here either. GS speeds now are higher than they've ever been, even with more gates.

Quote:
In any case if high performance speed oriented skis haven't changed with the shaped ski revolution then have we really improved the sport or just made it easier for beginners and intermediates?
First: "speed oriented" skis (assuming that means SG and DH race skis) have changed.

Second: SG and DH skis are special-purpose niche skis, that aren't heavily used, even by the people who race Super G and DH. The skis that people use not only for SL and GS, but for free-skiing, are dramatically different than they used to be. So - even if it were the case that "speed oriented skis haven't changed" - that would mean virtually nothing, since the skis used for something like 98% of the skier-miles have changed.

Third: Shaped skis do less for beginners and intermediates (who don't know how to carve a turn anyway) than they do for advance and experts skiers.
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamlyn View Post

 In any case if high performance speed oriented skis haven't changed with the shaped ski revolution then have we really improved the sport or just made it easier for beginners and intermediates?
 


The latter. All real skis (powder and speed-event skis) still have little sidecut. Skis with lots of sidecut are for going really slow on lame groomers.

Outstanding thread by the way.
post #7 of 17
Reminds me of something drag racers say. "If you can turn the car, you're not going fast enough."
post #8 of 17
Short radius skis are good at making short radius turns; long radius skis are good at making long radius turns.  There aren't a lot of short radius turns in speed events.   Going fast, making long radius turns, is still best done on long radius skis.  You can only turn so tight at speed; the laws of physics have yet to be repealed.  
post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post

Third: Shaped skis do less for beginners and intermediates (who don't know how to carve a turn anyway) than they do for advance and experts skiers.

Not to start a big argument, but... I disagree.  Strongly.  You can get people 'carving' at least the outside ski from their very first turn.  Or at least getting some substantial benefit from the ski's shape.  If anything, the opposite was thought to be true: short(er) 'super-sidecut' skis were widely adopted for instruction well before they became popular for racing.

That said, I do see plenty of people who make such aggressive pivoting moves into the turn that they're not seeing much benefit.  But they're not people I taught!  
post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post




Not to start a big argument, but... I disagree.  Strongly.  You can get people 'carving' at least the outside ski from their very first turn.  Or at least getting some substantial benefit from the ski's shape.  If anything, the opposite was thought to be true: short(er) 'super-sidecut' skis were widely adopted for instruction well before they became popular for racing.

That said, I do see plenty of people who make such aggressive pivoting moves into the turn that they're not seeing much benefit.  But they're not people I taught!  
 

I concur; shaped skis make it easy for beginners. I taught my girlfriend's never-ever daughter to ski on shape skis. While she isn't carving on them, she is using tipping and sidecut to work her edges with excellent control. She was on her own and safely in control in 2 hours on greens and blues.
post #11 of 17
I dont really get it. If OP is such an experienced skier he should not need to ask these questions. You cannot ski a GS course on SL skis. They over turn and its not allowed for good reason. You need to pick a ski with a turn radius that matches the biggest turn radius and the highest speeds on a course.

Offcourse its easier to learn how to ski on "light", "short" and "turny" modern carving skis. Has nothing to do with carving. They brush and skid nicely as long as the tuning is not too aggressive. No, you should not teach beginners how to turn by edge locked carving.
post #12 of 17
I think the DH and SG skis are true carvers. But for a higher speed.
I love the feeling of an empty slope and going straight for a few hundred meters and then just carve... 
My biggest problem is that I also enjoy the pillow very much in the morning.
post #13 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamlyn View Post

But now GS speeds are getting faster again and Fisher for one is offering a 193 GS hole ski (add back 4-5 CM for the uptuned tip and we are almost back to 200) and the sidecut is much shallowere than any of the other shaped skis).

The Fischer 193 Hole ski measures 193 from TIP TO TAIL. They are the exact SAME length as a 193 Volkl without the hole. You have your shit backwards, the 193 Fischers ski shorter than the 193 Volkl's.

And the title? C'mon, you'd have to be retarded to want to ski a 27m GS ski in a DH or fast SG course, or ski a 33m SG on a fast DH. It's just not safe. They have sidecut rules for a reason.
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rise To The Top View Post


And the title? C'mon, you'd have to be retarded to want to ski a 27m GS ski in a DH or fast SG course, or ski a 33m SG on a fast DH. It's just not safe. They have sidecut rules for a reason.
 

Yepp!. Anyone fancy Golden Eagle at full whack on a pair of r=27m GS skis? Better not catch that edge, boyo!
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamlyn View Post

 My new Super G skis are 208's and have the same excact sidecut as my old 212 GS skis (the 4 cm length difference is due to the lower tips on the new skis). Likewise My New Atomic 215 DH skis are exactly the same sidecut as my old 220 Dynastar Descente's (again the 5 cm difference has to do with the poited tip on the old skis. There is no discernable difference . My GS skis are 183 Volkl's and frankly I never really felt they were as fast as my old 212's but then since the FIS changed the amount of gates in GS making more turns and a slower overall race they were adequate. But now GS speeds are getting faster again and Fisher for one is offering a 193 GS hole ski (add back 4-5 CM for the uptuned tip and we are almost back to 200) and the sidecut is much shallowere than any of the other shaped skis). I have always felt the beginner to intermediate skier benefitted from radical sidecuts, it is easier to carve without the discipline,strength and precision that it requires to ski a longer ski with a less radical sidecut (there never were any straight skis). Slalom skis today are fine on a race course but they used to be a great all moutian ski(except in powder or crud) And I think the Fat skis are a huge leap forward for powder, but as an east coast skier and a long time USSA racer with decent results including a couple years on the developmet squad  and over 20 medals/trophies both as a teen as late as a bronze when I was 42 (overall not as a Master) , and still racing speed events at 57. FIS specs for a 2 run Slalom uset to be 30+ gates now as many as 75 so it is a no brainer shorter skis would be better.

In any case if high performance speed oriented skis haven't changed with the shaped ski revolution then have we really improved the sport or just made it easier for beginners and intermediates?
 

In my best John McEnroe voice "You cannot be serious!"
post #16 of 17
My Head ski radius goes to 11. That's one better.
post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawker View Post




Yepp!. Anyone fancy Golden Eagle at full whack on a pair of r=27m GS skis? Better not catch that edge, boyo!

 

Oh yes, and lets ski on them .5 and flat bevels too!
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