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Posting Copyrighted Material

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
I received a phone call from Harold Harb this morning. He was very friendly, but quite concerned about reports he had heard about images from his book being posted in this forum. His concerns are justifiable and legitimate – this is a very serious issue.

Therefore, I wanted to point out the following:

<LI>Do not post any copyrighted material in this forum (images or text) unless you have the rights to it.
<LI>Every single member here has explicitly agreed (by actively clicking on a button that says "I agree") to the following statement when they registered: "You agree not to post any copyrighted material."
<LI>If you see any copyrighted material (anything created, published or distributed by someone other than the poster), please notify me immediately. (my e-mail is at the bottom of every page where it says “Contact Us”)[/list]
Thanks!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AC (edited March 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #2 of 12
Clear and concise AC; I'm only sad that there was a need to say it. Thank you for this place and we appreciate the opportunity to share together.
post #3 of 12
Not an expert at copyright law, but I would have thought that references to copyright material, such as quotes and/or pictures in the course of debate or discussion about that material would not be copyright infringement, unless the source or copyright owner was not specifically referenced. That is, if you pull a statement from Harb's book or Witherall's book or an article from SKI magazine, in the course of illustrating your own thoughts AND you specifically reference (through footnote or other direct mention) the source you are not committed copyright infringement. Of course the simplest solution is not to post it....

Any of the lawyers out there familiar with copyright law?
post #4 of 12
Being a lawyer and still a human being, my take on it is this: Forget about the details of the "law". Why get into this morass? Just DO NOT post images that are copyrighted. If you want to quote an author, then quote the author. Leave the images out of the quote. Copyright laws exist for a reason - fairness to the originators of the copyrighted material. Whatever may be the details of the "letter of the law", let's observe the spirit of the law: Do not "pirate" images which are the results of someone else's work when that work has been copyrighted. Please. Thank you.
P.S. edit: If you refer someone to copyrighted material, they can either buy the book or other item, read it in a library, or rent it from a video store. The originators of the work would, I'm sure, appreciate the references to their work, as it is both recognition and advertisement. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by oboe (edited March 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #5 of 12
Hey I think it would be great if Harb would respond to some of the discussion here. AC did Mr. Harb indicate if he every visited this site. There could be some real good exchanges of ideas.

post #6 of 12
Thread Starter 
PowD, it did not sound like he had ever seen the website -- and he explicitly said he had not seen it in the past week. He had just been told about it. The report he had been given about the site made it sound pretty hostile -- I think it misrepresented things a bit, but it is true that the debates can get pretty lively.

I did encourage him to discuss his teaching method here -- however he explained that he has had this debate (his system vs. PSIA) many times and he does not feel that such discussions are very worthwhile because (1) People do not listen and (2) The people he ends up debating the issue with do not understand his system (as a former demo team member, he knows PSIA methodology very well, but the people he ends up debating with do not know much about his system). As a result, he finds it to be a non-productive discussion.

I do think it would be great to hear from him, I'm sure he would have some very interesting things to say, but I can also respect his wish to discuss his work when, where and how he chooses.

He did however, offer to somehow work with the EpicSki to present some of his material/insights which sounded interesting to me. I'm thinking of pursuing it next year since things are winding down for the season (and I am swamped right now). If this would be interesting (or anyone wants to discuss this further), please start another thread. (Doing something with EpicSki outside of the forum is, of course, also an option for any of you other ski instruction gurus as well)<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AC (edited March 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #7 of 12
I agree completely that we shouldn't be posting copyrighted material here but, that said, I don't believe this site has done anything but help to draw attention to Harb's system and books. Being a perpetual student I buy books regularly. Last year I bought his book, read it and passed it on to a friend. I also have many others including Witherell's, Lito's and Bob Barnes' (got it before he ever posted here) sitting here looking at me, along with tuning and other books. As I stated before I think Harb has some great points and I agree with many of his ideas. After this latest round of discussion here I actually bought his two replacement "Expert Skier" books to reread the old stuff and learn about the new. I'm obviously not the only one whose interest was either peaked or re-peaked because of these discussions even if the conversation does sometimes get a little hostile. Any focus draws attention. If I have the chance in the future, I'll try one of his camps. I'd like to study with any of these folks. Harald should be thanking you AC. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by BobT (edited March 28, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 12
Harald is absolutley entitled to protect his interests on which he expends considerable effort and resource. However, I personally haven't noticed anything posted here that I would expect to be outside of "fair treatment".

Original posting mentioned "reports" to Harald. One assumes that Harald has something more substantial than heresay. Otherwise I would have rate Harald down a little on the basis that a simple, albeit friendly, statement that he has had "reports", while being convenient for him, could be intimidatory of genuine discussion and argument. While I agree that Harald has his rights for protection, I reckon that he must also be prepared to do more to protect them than to shift the total onus onto the host of this forum on the basis of heresay. ie At the least indicate that he himself has also assessed cases and is concerned. And maybe he did although the original post didn't seem to say that.

As an aside, I think Oboe is leaving us with little room to move in our honest pursuit of understanding. Easy it might be to apply but too restrictive. Life isn't ever that simple.
post #9 of 12
Thread Starter 
Colin, the report he heard was accurate. There was an in innappropriate image posted, though I took it down very quickly (and as soon as I found out). He took the correct action by contacting me.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AC (edited March 30, 2001).]</FONT>
post #10 of 12
Question. I've got some exchanges on the Harb teaching system from skinet or skicentral back in '98. They were from the instruction forum and at the time I thought they were so interesting I downloaded the thread. Harald takes part very briefly and I was going to do a post last week with excerpts on the (I believe AlexS) thread on the Harb method. I thought it'd be interesting to see that the very same discussions took place 3 years ago. However, I never got around to it and now this brouhaha has erupted.
So, the question is, is that material copyrighted? Similar question would be is the material in these forums copyrighted?

hmmm..."only the shadow knows..."

post #11 of 12
Thread Starter 
I don't know. You should not copy and paste the full threads, but quoting Harold or others from a public forum should not be a problem.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AC (edited March 30, 2001).]</FONT>
post #12 of 12
AC - Glad to hear it. I am only surmising that Harald did not assess itself because of your initial statement and, to me, this is an issue - if indeed authors are too easily warning (the legal implications then give rise to the threaat/intimidation) and I hope that, indeed, Harald did actually make his own judgement. There are some copyright holders in this world who just braodcast widely warnings in the knowledge that, rightly or not, the recipients will buckle down becasue of the cost of litigation. I would hate to do Harald the disservice of unjustly putting him in with those.

Anyway, I'm glad that you had no problem complying to an agreed discretion - we need good newsgroups and good moderators along with good authors. And this is damned good discussion group.
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