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Someone should email HH to monitor

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Someone should send an email to HH and let him view all these discussions. I think he has posted here before, so unless he and Diane are off to Australia/New Zealand or South America, it might be interesting.

Wacko how about you [ big hint ?]
post #2 of 29
Come on, Wink, we don't need this.....Ott
post #3 of 29
can you say "Pandora's Box"?
post #4 of 29
Agreed. we don't need it but as a professional courtesy someone did try to let him know since he was kind enough to contact AC before taking legal action against EpicSki. He's downunder...
post #5 of 29
I think it would be cool if we could hear about all this from the source. And I don't think he'd have to worry about any of us calling him a chick magnet.
post #6 of 29
This wouldn't be as useful as you think. It's happened before actually, where HH posted on a board. I may post some of it.

If you want to hear him talk about pmts that's one thing. I don't think you're going to get much 'discusson' or comparison though because there's no way he can admit the slightest problem with pmts. This would be very bad for business.
post #7 of 29
What board did he post on?
post #8 of 29
I agree with this. Get the book if you really want to know. After reading it you won't want him here "discussing" anything. (You might feel sorry for a tree though)
I believe his post was on skinet.
post #9 of 29
I consider Harald a friend. He is aware of this website and at this point chooses not to respond.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lucky (edited May 23, 2001).]</FONT>
post #10 of 29
Yea, I have only recently met Harald, and I think he's good folks... learned a lot from him.

And I think we can do fine without his input. I like the fact that this whole
discussion has taken place, just the way
it has. Well, maybe a little less drama

There's no need to monitor a free discussion of ideas, and I really think it's better if it's not, gets a life of it's own.

What I am curious about, is if any other skiers here have attended PMTS events, lessons, or instructor clinics.

I get the impression that Pierre, Eh?
has had some experiences.

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #11 of 29
I wasn't lying when I said I had seriously wanted to attend a workshop. But at the moment, I'm not sure. I have taken classes from PSIA instructors who have studied with Harb, and incorporated some of the methods. I am concerned about the whole stance width thing. Not to repeat myself, but I've tried that narrow stance many times with no sucess, and I don't know if I want to go through that again. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited May 19, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited May 21, 2001).]</FONT>
post #12 of 29
Yea, the narrow stance suprised me, as did my success with it, after many years of advocating and using a wider stance.

I have a slightly wide PMTS stance now, and a much narrower stance overall. Narrow, but acceptable by PSIA gurus. Unless they are looking for a wide stance specifically.

I don't think I could do this at all if my algnment wasn't done. And it's close, but I could use another degree.

I am wide-hipped (for a guy, I guess) and have a knock kneed stance...

Approx 3 degrees, thick side of the cants under the inside of both feet.

Worse, my right leg is about 4-5mm shorter than my left, and I have an extra shim to compensate for that.

I know I could ski with such a narrow stance without my aligment being done fairly well.

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #13 of 29
SnoCarver, I have asked this question in another thread but you may be more qualified to answer it: Does PMTS require a skier who wants to become a PMTS instructor to already have teaching experience (from where and in what, if so) or will he take good skiers who have never taught and teach them to be instructors, as our PSIA schools do?

post #14 of 29
Hiya Bob, welcome back...

My cert class had only 6 of us. Three were instructors, two of us at Cert III, one at Cert II in the world of TTS.

The other three were new to teaching, but had been training with PMTS for a while.

So yea, it's best to already be in a ski school, at this point. I see no problem with being cert in both. For instance, John Clendenin is cert in both PSIA & PMTS. So are others.

I came into these discussions a little late, and I know I have missed opportunites to respond to some very good questions here.

But just for giggles...

First, PMTS is very direct and effective way of teaching. Yes, it promotes "one way". I have no problem with this, as the results I have had with students have been very positive.

Upper levels, we can still can do neato things like pivot slips, hop turns, almost hopping pedal turns, anything goes, as long as it works. I personally still like playing with very delicious wide stance cross under turns with rebound.

I'll still teach a stem christie to an upper level skier looking for TOOLS to ski in crappy, difficult conditions. Being able to pivot the skis, quickly, and in balance is not a bad thing to know, not at all!

What was very interesting to me was the difference in immediate positive results with my students, and their enthusiasm. Mind you, I had NOT certifired with PMTs yet, I had been playing and doing drills with myself and friends.

If a method teaches folks to parallel, in balance, quickly... With MEAURABLE sucess... "I can DO IT NOW". Does that satisisfy their needs better?

PMTS really seems to promote balance more strongly than the TTS stuff I have used. Stance and Balance are the things that most average skiers need to work on first, before going anywhere else.

Wanna do some stem christie drills... ?roflamao

I think I'll be at A-Basin tomorrow, for a little while. It's been freezing up at night, so what little is open should be better than the past few days.

Rusty, Bob, Wacko, anybody else local?

Anybody local wanna go?

Bob... I worked for IS (Computer Dept.) at Copper for a few years, does that help solve the mystery? We chatted about boots, you were messing with some Salomons that were maybe a bit too small.

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #15 of 29
SnoKarver- I may be there Monday and/or Tuesday. I may also bring a woman who teaches with me who is a PSIA level one and who took a PMTS program at Loveland this spring. Nice lady. I won't know until the morning. I'll meet you at the same spot/same time, 10:30 if I can get away.
post #16 of 29
Back when I was in college, a professor said to us "Freud is not a Freudian, Jung is not a Jungian....etc."
From the email I recieved today, I have discovered that Harb is not a Harbian. He seemed truly perplexed that someone would want to turn his technique into a cult, as opposed to a learning experience. So perhaps we should keep that in mind.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
It seems like my idea to involve HH in these discussions wasn't a real winner, and the other posts certainly bare this out.

I know when I tried to contact him a couple of years ago, as to what he would emphsize to use with learning disabled athletes
[i.e. Special Olympians ]that would be effective, and accelerate their learning curve, he had nothing to offer, not even a response.

I don't fault him for this, because working with Special Olympians is a challenge, and the cerebral requirements of PMTS may not be adaptive to thier needs, or it may have been a challenge he just didn't know how or want to deal with.

Do I use PMTS, in particular the "phantom foot move," with any of the athletes ? No I don't for two reasons. One, only about 20-30% of the athletes have shaped skis and second, we only get 3, two hour sessions of on slope training to work with them before competition night. We in part are required to use a very outdated Special Olympics Alpine skiing manuel [ which often we ignore because it is over 20 years old, and we have developed some of our own materials, that we link, though not very well to the manuel, so we stay in conformity with the state organization, you know,.... beauracy.]

So I guess HH really isn't a possibility in the future, at least on this forum.

Finally, I apologize to you AC for not being aware that HH had caused you some grief and aggrevation. Hopefully, no more slip ups.
post #18 of 29
Interesting points, Bob. Even in fitness, people such as Gin Miller have gone beyond saying that step is the end all and be all of fitness activities. What makes her an still an industry star, as opposed to a "has been" is her wilingness to embrace new methodologies.
In fitness and in sport, the technolgy used for testing the effectiveness of different training methods is becoming more and more sophisticated. And sometimes, as professionals in these industries we need to be able to "eat humble pie" and tell our students we have found a better way of doing things.
Regarding what wink said, I too am a bit surprised. Although different from working with handicapped people, I do use Harb's dryland training [towels , ropes] in working with seniors, pregnant woman who developing ankle instability, injured people and a atudent who has M.S.
Surely who could have used some these ideas to help handicapped athletes.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #19 of 29
I don't know about the handicapped thing but I have to agree with Bob about "the barn door". I mean his book is so annoying constantly talking about how terrible the other system is and how great he is. I could barely stand it when I first got it in spring '98 and didn't even know what psia was. Not only do you have to endure that stuff but it's so badly written once he strays from the excercises.

Witherell takes a lot of shots at psia in "Athletic Skier" but at least it's focused and rational. Plus he makes his point and moves on. You can tell he's concerned about skiers and skiing, not making himself look great. (I hear he's quite crusty in person though!)

Even HH's website and pmts.org are constantly setting themselves against psia. If his system is so great why does he care?

Drop the axe before you cut off your legs!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #20 of 29
Okay, here's the thing. I'm begining to believe such much of this relates to how things are marketed. To be honest, I will not pretend to understand every detail as to the technical points that have been argued, here. I just haven't been skiing long enough to do that. So there are probably many subtlties I'm missing.
So much of what has been hailed as the glories of PMTS sounds exactly like stuff I've been taught by PSIA instructors.
Maybe its been renamed and marketed as someone's personal "creation", but I'm just not seeing anything breathtakingly new.
Except for the concept of never teaching the wedge. But since I can't go back in a time machine to compare what it would have been like to be taugt direct to parallel, the argument is academic.
This stuff reminds me of things that went on in the 80s in fitness. Jane Fonda was taking classes at a studio called Body Design by Gilda. She then "created" a "new" technique, called the Jane Fonda Workout. But since this workout included an exercise called the Pelvic Tilt, Gilda threatened to sue, claiming that she invented the pelvic tilt.
Oh Please!!!!!

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #21 of 29
Hey BobB: Regarding HH's increasing (and likely future) problems, I liken his faddish popularity to that of the Cliff Taylor GLM movement in the '70's. Remember how many ski schools played up that system? There were many more Cliff Taylor system schools across the country than HH's been able to set up.
post #22 of 29
wasn't there some problem with the whole TaeBo (sp?)thing involving some sort of claim that he didn't invent it?

marketing marketing marketing

say "no wedge" it's easy for people to see you're different.

then tell 'em "You learned dead end moves"

so they think "yeah, I can't ski because I was taught the wedge!"

and then:
"So I'll go over there where there is no wedge!"

His whole strategy is "I'm so different" and "they've ruined you" so come over to me.

The thing is I like his simple move idea and concentrating on it. The stance though ohhh how's he going to work himself out of that? (well that'll be book 3 and will be presented as the next step)
What's infuriating is the denial that rotary takes place or has any place. Not only denial but training of "disciples" like wacko who buy the whole thing.
post #23 of 29
Definitely a similar issue with TaeBo, but i don't remember the details {Im NOT a fan of TaeBo, but that's another story}.

Again, it sounds like cult tactics. Many people, for many reasons that I don't feel like talking about, have an overly emotional reaction to skiing. Trying to hook someone in by emotional tactics is a cheap shot.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #24 of 29
See SnoKarver's short discussion of steering in the "Steering, yes or no" thread. 5/22, 6:55pm http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000364.html

a ray of light through the crack...
post #25 of 29
I fondly remember GLM. It was the first stuff I taught, at Bridger Bowl, years ago.

Cliff Taylor is quite a character. I've skied with him a few times. Quite an interesting gentleman!

He's still hanging out at Copper.

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #26 of 29
First, I am not a ski instructor and come at this from a personal perspective of someone who deals with a child with LD every day. As pointed out above, a good teacher (don't care whether you are talking English, Science or Skiing here) will take a variety of approaches to make sure his/her student is learning the concepts and demonstrating that knowledge. Everyone learns differently and I firmly believe that there is NO ONE WAY to teach any subject that will reach everyone. Even such, to us, deporable methodologies as "sink or swim" like taking a beginner to the top of High Rustler and saying "meet me at the bottom" will have someone somewhere saying "it was the perfect way FOR ME to learn how to ski". And, again as noted above, what Mr. Harb has found and what PSIA seems to lack is the effective marketing strategy that says "Hey, look at this! This is THE way to learn _______ "(fill in your choice). So, we settle on a comprimise that seems to reach the most people in an efficient manner, realizing that the model isn't perfect, and hoping that, for those who don't fit the model, there will be alternatives and different approaches that will bring them the success they need.
post #27 of 29
Cliff Taylor was "inviting" real estate investments at Copper last I heard. He'd go take a run or two with folks who expressed any interest in buying a condo or homesite or a part in some development he was lending his name to, I think.
post #28 of 29
A lot of the Tae Kwan Do places have put martial arts to music. Billy Banks markets this as an excercise tool. Kinda like HH I guess, he took the basics and put "a ribbon on it" to give it "his" flavor.

It also plays on the (once) growing popularity of Thai Boxing......

I'll hold my true sentiments about TKD and Billy Banks and the drift of martial arts in general.
post #29 of 29
FYI: It's Billy Blanks
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