EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Perspectives on Risk vs Reward
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Perspectives on Risk vs Reward - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Is Grams a Maiden fan?

post #32 of 59
Thread Starter 

I am not trying to judge anyone's approach to risk. Everyone has their own limits. I also aggree that the idea of dying old and infirmed is not any more palitable than dying while doing something fun. I just know that there is a lot of time between the two and there is plenty to do and see. For most folks, these stories are just something they read in the news and is remote and sterile. You never knew the people personally.
 

I was a replacement in the 1st Martine division in Kuwait during the end of desert storm. We hung around after the carnage to do clean-up. I never fired a shot at anyone and never got so much as a scratch. But I did have a friend killed and it still sitcks with me. When you see people who are seriously F'd up and you know people who got seriously F'd up, it puts a different perspective on things. Traveling down roads and seing dead people in the prime of their life lying all over the place gives you a totally different perspective about dying young. It's not just some sterile story you read about on the internet. Iron Maiden may think dying with your boots on is cool but they ain't seen shit, nor have most of the people here who glamorize the notion of dying young doing something you love. Excuse my French.
 

Dying young is not cool. Sometimes it is inevitable and is required, but it ain't cool. It is not romantic nor should it be portrayed as such. IMO, of course.

post #33 of 59
Here's another opinion I've heard, "I want to die in my sleep, like my Grandfather died,















Not kicking and screaming like his passengers."
post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

Iron Maiden may think dying with your boots on is cool but they ain't seen shit, nor have most of the people here who glamorize the notion of dying young doing something you love. Excuse my French.
 

Dying young is not cool. Sometimes it is inevitable and is required, but it ain't cool. It is not romantic nor should it be portrayed as such. IMO, of course.


It's funny that you start a thread specifically asking for people's thoughts and opinions, then when said thoughts and opinions run counter to your own you resort to using "French".

IMO (sorry) most people view life as some kind of endurence contest and completely disregard the intensity factor. If you figure in intensity people like McConkey actually lived to be 145.
post #35 of 59
Thread Starter 

Opinions are opinions. Everyone has one. People also debate the opinions, or else message boards would get very boring.
 

I am giving my perspective. If one lives a very sheltered existence in the mountains, one can have a totally different perspective, and I understand that. In fact, this whole subject boils down to perspectives, hence the title of the thread--'Perspectives on risk vs reward." I liken the perspective of glamorizing dying young while skiing to guys who glamorize war because they watch too many holywood movies. They glamorize it because they haven't seen shit and have this romantic notioin of danger and daring that is being fed to them by the sterile media. From my perpsective, there is nothing glamorous about war just as there is nothing glamorous about dying young doing something you love. 
 

Now, if someone thinks their goal is to die young and not wait for old age, my advice would be you might want to reconsider this from another perspective. Be content living your life, whether you are skiing, just sitting around, or spending time with family and friends. You don't realize what you have available to you beyond just having fun all the time. When you see things differently, from another perspective, you come to uderstand more fully what life has available and, often, you are the more content for it. If you get too wrapped up in a sheltered existence then it is very easy to not undersand or appreciate what you have. In fact, here in the US, we tend to get sot of touch that we really don't appreciate the life we have here.
 

Try telling someone in Iraq or Haiti, "It's so bad that I mgiht live to be 100 and die with dignity, well fed, well clothed, well sheltered, well protected, under the auspices of quality health care, with family and friends around me. I would rather die young, having fun, and get it over with and spare me that great indignity."
 

Do the things you love, have fun, but reconsider the perspective of dying young being something to strive for. Having a spoiled, sheltered existence where having fun is the ultimate goal can skew perspectives on life, wthout one even knowing it.

post #36 of 59
Maybe we should start a new thread.   Have you ever come close to death or the thought/realization that you might die/right then?

This might be interesting but obviously not a ski question.  How did this effect your life and/or outlook on death?
post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

 Having a spoiled, sheltered existence can skew perspectives on life, wthout one even knowing it.


I can agree with this. However - your posts are all over the place. It's almost as if you have recently gone through a pretty traumatic experience and are venting here. Lots of things can skew one's perspective on life. A really good example is thinking that because you've experienced something you have better understanding than some annonymous guy on a message board (who may very well have a much more intimate relationship with the subject at hand than you - who knows?).

I seriously doubt Shane McConkey had a death wish. I also seriously doubt his wife and kids are going to become meth addicts and die in the gutter. I also seriously doubt that the thing most people took away from his death was "It's cool to die relatively young!". McConkey's life was an inspiration - not an inspiration to constantly cheat death, but an inspiration to live. When I see McConkey in a ski movie I don't think "Man - that guy has a death wish and needs to slow down a bit", I think "Man - that guy is one funny MFer!". Then again, I guess I can see how somebody would have a different perspective.
post #38 of 59
Thread Starter 
Not venting, but looking back at the posts I guess I was a bit 'heavy.'  It's been almost two decades but I still think about some things now and then and non-chalant comments about someone dying young seem to strike a chord, I guess.   
post #39 of 59
We all die.  We can't change that.  The question is, "Do you want to add years to life or add life to your years?"
post #40 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

We all die.  We can't change that.  The question is, "Do you want to add years to life or add life to your years?"
 


Why are you assuming that the two are mutually exclusive?
post #41 of 59
I assume nothing.  I expect the Spanish Inquisition.
They might not be mutually exclusive, but I have trouble concentrating on more than one thing at a time, so I would advise if you have to make a choice, then concentrate on adding life.
post #42 of 59
Thread Starter 
I think skiers have more of a risk-taking personality to begin with -- to varying degrees, of course. Someone who is overly concerned with getting injured on the slopes probably wouldn't be skiing or, if they did, would never venture into new terrain or step it up a notch.

I think everyone has a limit beyond which they won't cross. This varies with each inidivudal and also with age, I suspect. When you are in your teens and early twenties, you feel invincible. LIke the popular saying goes, "If you are young and conservative, you have no heart. If you are old and Liberal, you have no soul."

If I had started seriously getting into skiing at a younger age, I likely would be more comfortable with higher speeds and more demanding terrain. Now, if approaching a cliff edge or narrow chute,  I think, "There are trees on the side of this chute and if I slip, I could go into them and I would not be having a good time." Taking up skiing as a serious past-time in my thirties, I never really felt I had to prove anything and never approached skiing as a competition where I compared what I am doing to others, so I have the luxury of just doing what I favor without having to emulate anyone. When you are young, you are more likely to want to be portrayed as having tude and getting into 'gnar', which is only natural. 'Gnar' for me is speeds above 25-30 mph and pitches over 30 degrees. This is where my confidence break downs and I become more concerned with the consquence of mishaps than really enjoying myself.
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

Do the things you love, have fun, but reconsider the perspective of dying young being something to strive for. Having a spoiled, sheltered existence where having fun is the ultimate goal can skew perspectives on life, wthout one even knowing it.


I'm still really curious about this. Have you actually met people who legitimately want/prefer to die young than old? i really am curious. i've never personally met anyone who thinks this way and, as a relatively young person, have no peers who desire to die young over dieing old. i think i might just be confused a little about what you might mean. Also i'm curious about what you define as 'romanticizing' of death because you're definition seems very different from a lot of people here, and considering what you've been through in war, probably is.

i'm really sorry to hear about what you had to go through in Kuwait. May your friend R.I.P. i totally agree about war being romanticized by hollywood through movies.

and i just re-read my first post and it sounds harsher than i meant it to. i'm sorry about that and hope you didn't take it personally.
Edited by SBVT - 1/24/10 at 2:57pm
post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

... 'Gnar' for me is speeds above 25-30 mph and pitches over 30 degrees. This is where my confidence break downs and I become more concerned with the consquence of mishaps than really enjoying myself.

Hit something square @25mph and you are plucked. 

Point being, everyone who skis for sport has voluntarily chosen to assume more risk of an early death than bowlers.  Beyond that, it's a question of where your head is at, at any given point.  I'm cool with people skiing beautifully @10mph down an easy blue -- and it can be beautiful and fun -- and cool with people racing or skiing true steeps, etc.

Just as drug use runs in social crowds, almost like a flu, at the extreme end of the risk spectrum there is an issue with "impressionable" people taking huge risks they don't want to face up to, until one or two of their social set gets bit.  You see this with a number of sports.  I'm a firm believer in people's rights to do as they please, but do hope people are clear-eyed about it, have good life insurance if they have kids, etc. ...and in some cases examine whether the course they're on (and the high they're chasing) really is any different than a meth addict's.   (One particular bug I personally have with this is people taking huge slide risk to post pretty TR's on the web, btw. -- and this does happen.)  For the most part anyone reading this thread probably doesn't have to worry about this issue, though, any more than a recreational climber needs to fixate on how Dan Osman ended up -- to me undue focus on those type of things is a variant of _ _ _ _ hanging...I know that I'm not in the same group as any number of "big" names who push it, so what is it, to me, anyway? 

People should also  realize that they often are terrible @judging the risks others are taking, and also terrible @judging the reasons for people doing what they (the 'judges") view as risky activities.  This can sometimes be pretty funny when you see it in real life.

Live and let live.
post #45 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBVT View Post

I'm still really curious about this. Have you actually met people who legitimately want/prefer to die young than old? i really am curious. i've never personally met anyone who thinks this way and, as a relatively young person, have no peers who desire to die young over dieing old. i think i might just be confused a little about what you might mean. Also i'm curious about what you define as 'romanticizing' of death because you're definition seems very different from a lot of people here,


 

Really, this post started as a reaction to the cliches I always hear when the incident stories get reported. I am using the word romantic just as a dictionary would define it --sentimental or idealistic.  

Looking back at my comments, I believe Jer was right in the sense that I am not distanced enough to be objective about it so anything I say is probably tainted by my experiences and perspective. 

 I have never met anyone who thought it would be something good to die young but have talked to more than several people who seem to think that taking risks simply for the sake of taking risks is something desirable that will up their 'tude.' I think this has more to do with youthfull bravado rather than accepting calculated risks as part of an activity. Yes, anyone can get hurt, or even killed, while skiing. But SOME younger people who desire to get themselves into the really high-risk activities seem to have a very non-chalant approach to potential risks and SOME seem to use  'It's better to die young pushing yourself." as a rationalization of the risk. That is fine and everyone is entitled to apporach risk this way. It is indeed a free world, to use another cliche. I was just ading a different perspective for folks to think about. Young guys are watching professional skiers in ski videos outrunning an avalanche, or hucking a 200 foot cliff.  They never get to see the accidents and fatalities first-hand so they really have never seen both sides of the story and it means very little to them personally, outside of their like for the skiers accomplishments.

Am I saying it's not worth the risk? No. That's not my decision to make. I am simply giving my perspective on the subject.
post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

People should also  realize that they often are terrible @judging the risks others are taking, and also terrible @judging the reasons for people doing what they (the 'judges") view as risky activities.  This can sometimes be pretty funny when you see it in real life.
 

This is a good point. To some out-of-shape golfer from Orlando anybody skiing 15mph on a groomer is probably seen as an adrenalin junky. There is stuff that I used to do (roping up, super-steep icy couloirs, general mountaineering stuff), that I don't do anymore but when I see guys doing it I don't think they have a death-wish. Maybe it's because I know what goes into that sort of thing.

I've never heard anybody even remotely romanticizing Shane McConkey, Doug Coombs or Trevor Petersen's demise. If anything, everybody considers such stuff a horrible accident. None of these guys died doing anything really out of the ordinary of their usual lives. And I don't think any of these guys became big heros posthumously. When I think of these guys I think of Saucerboy or Coombs doing that half-assed ski tune or Petersen hanging out in his van - not some guy laying dead in the snow. The only sports-type guy that comes to mind that became a legend posthumously was Eddie Aikau. Maybe it's because of the way he died trying to save his shipmates.
post #47 of 59
"I hope I die before I get old" - The WHO

Quote
:Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

I am giving my perspective. If one lives a very sheltered existence in the mountains, one can have a totally different perspective, and I understand that. In fact, this whole subject boils down to perspectives, hence the title of the thread--'Perspectives on risk vs reward." I liken the perspective of glamorizing dying young while skiing to guys who glamorize war because they watch too many holywood movies. They glamorize it because they haven't seen shit and have this romantic notioin of danger and daring that is being fed to them by the sterile media. From my perpsective, there is nothing glamorous about war just as there is nothing glamorous about dying young doing something you love.
Which Media would that be? Gangsta Rap? Greek Mythology?
The romanticizing has been going on since the dawn of civilization.
Nothing new here.
I'm not sure what your statement "sheltered existence in the mountains means" -seems like you're implying they don't have a clue. Of what? That people die? Of war?

Doug Coombs: "I'd rather die slipping off the mountain than in a car wreck" - movie Steep
about 6 weeks later he was killed by literally slipping off a cliff at La Grave, France.
What does it mean?

Kasha Rigby: (Telemark Adventure skier) "I don't wqnt to die in the mountains. I want to die old" movie  Edge of Never

Andrew McClain: (Adventure skier often in very remote places) on avalanche danger, "The only way for me to be safe is not to go out there." movie Steep
Quote:

Try telling someone in Iraq or Haiti, "It's so bad that I mgiht live to be 100 and die with dignity, well fed, well clothed, well sheltered, well protected, under the auspices of quality health care, with family and friends around me. I would rather die young, having fun, and get it over with and spare me that great indignity."
That's a pretty good statement. The thing is they'd probably love to have that option, who wouldn't?
post #48 of 59
yeah. i get it better now, and agree. many people do take risks that maybe they shouldnt, or at least they don't think about the consequences enough before taking the risk.

i think a lot of the problem with this is simply maturity. There are plenty of young people out there who just want to spend the rest of their lives skiing, or whatever else it is, even though when you look at the majority of adults in the world, the percentage of people who actually do end up doing this is very slim. Personally, i can relate to this right now, i can't imagine not spending my life without skiing a lot and its all i want to do now, but deep down i realize that i will grow up, mature, and probably end up focusing more of my energy on things you talked about earlier, like starting a family. Not caring about risk goes along with this too, if you only want to ski you're whole life, then yeah dieing skiing doesn't seem like a big deal, and perhaps preferable to anything else. This is of course an extremely naive, and sheltered view and for the vast majority of the population, an incorrect one. Its easy to say you aren't afraid of death when you haven't encountered it, but a lot harder to say when you've experienced it.


Another thing that young people might not understand is that the pro's in ski movies who do hit the big cliffs are still extremely careful about what they do and make sure they are as sure as they can be that what they are doing is reasonably safe before doing it. Of course, they still do mess up and get hurt sometimes, but that goes back to the whole issue about whether or not risk is worth it for you, which is a completely opinionated thing and can't be argued either way.

back to Shane...i think he was one of the very few people in our society who decided that living life taking huge risks was worth it for him. He clearly made a very calculated decision to do what he did and, for him, it was worth it. He still wasn't haphazard though, as far as i can tell, he took every precaution to make sure the jumps he made were as safe as possible before doing them: he wasn't foolish with his life, but very unfortunately it didn't matter in this case.

Tog...i don't think i get the point of your post. do you agree with mojoman? or disagree? i think it's completely valid to say that someone who lives a sheltered life in the mountains has no real clue about war and what it's really life. of course they get the concept of war and what it is, but this in no way means the person has any idea of what its actually like to be in a war fighting and seeing the stuff soldiers see and having to cope with it. i know i wouldn't ever say for a second that i have any idea what its really like out there.
Edited by SBVT - 1/24/10 at 5:15pm
post #49 of 59
Also - I haven't seen a war film in a long time that charactorises war as anything but ugly, senseless and insane.

I dunno - maybe 300, but anybody who thinks that's real watches too much John Wayne.
post #50 of 59
Thread Starter 
What I meant by 'sheltered life' is that most people are sheltered from many harsh realities and form judgements about some things based on what is fed to them by the media. They know harsh realities exist and I am sure many here have experienced those. Most, however, don't see them up-close-and-personal to the point that it influences their peceptions about things. They simply read about the bad news in a brief press clip. First-hand experiences tend to give you a different perspective on life--for many, at least. 


 
post #51 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

That's a pretty good statement. The thing is they'd probably love to have that option, who wouldn't?

 

True, but they don't have this option. I am sure they also would like to live in a nation where a major worry and cause for heated argument is what ski to buy or if Descente is better than Spyder.
post #52 of 59
All of the freeskiers you see in films are doing it for the love of the sport. And sometimes they die for that.  If you can't romanticise a young person dying for love then you can romanticise anything. Read some Shakespear...
post #53 of 59
 mojoman = 
post #54 of 59
Quote:
True, but they don't have this option. I am sure they also would like to live in a nation where a major worry and cause for heated argument is what ski to buy or if Descente is better than Spyder. -mojoman

Yeah well not everyone in this nation is in that position anyway. How many millions don't have health care?
You can be "sheltered" anywhere. It has nothing to do with the mountains. You're applying standards to people in the mountains you can apply anywhere in this country or anywhere in the world. The media has been around for a  long, time. War has been romanticized for a long time.
Look, Nyc was a very different place for months after the destruction of the Wtc Towers. I don't mean physically, I mean in how people acted toward one another. That's a direct result of being so close to what happened and knowing people who were killed.
That's gone now. Should we really have such things happen all the time?

Youth has usually always taken more risks but McConkey, Coombs , and Petersen weren't exactly spring chickens.

As for Descente and Spyder, well this is a ski site!
post #55 of 59
Well, the quote that comes to mind regarding the recent deaths of young friends of mine is not that they died doing something they loved....but rather...

They lived doing something they loved.

Big difference.

And the full force of this is distinguished by a famous literary observation that Thoreau makes: "The mass of men lead quiet lives of desperation."

Sadly, most people live their lives doing something that they don't love..moreover that they hate.


Another quote comes to mind: The sadness of life is not death but the things that die in us while we are still alive.

Perhaps it's all just symantics, a rationalization...but it makes me feel better...

Now I am just desperate to hit the slopes...
post #56 of 59
Thread Starter 
You got me on this one.

I am a ship in a pier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 mojoman = 
post #57 of 59
Do you know the best thing about talking about death ?   That you're able to !
post #58 of 59
You talking about killing? Hmm? Y'all experts? Y'all know about killing? I'd like to hear about it, potheads. Are you smoking this shit so's to escape from reality? Me, I don't need this shit. I am reality. There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is. Elias was full of shit. Elias was a crusader. Now, I got no fight... with any man who does what he's told. But when he don't, the machine breaks down. And when the machine breaks down, we break down. And I ain't gonna allow that... in any of you. Not one.Y'all love Elias. Oh, you wanna kick ass. Yeah. Well, here I am, all by my lonesome. And there ain't nobody gonna know. Six of you boys against me. Kill me. Huh. I shit on all of you.
post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post

You talking about killing? Hmm? Y'all experts? Y'all know about killing? I'd like to hear about it, potheads. Are you smoking this shit so's to escape from reality? Me, I don't need this shit. I am reality. There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is. Elias was full of shit. Elias was a crusader. Now, I got no fight... with any man who does what he's told. But when he don't, the machine breaks down. And when the machine breaks down, we break down. And I ain't gonna allow that... in any of you. Not one.Y'all love Elias. Oh, you wanna kick ass. Yeah. Well, here I am, all by my lonesome. And there ain't nobody gonna know. Six of you boys against me. Kill me. Huh. I shit on all of you.
 


Well as I always knew Bollywood doesn't ever come up to Shakepeare.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Perspectives on Risk vs Reward