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post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

Here you go.  Pulling the feet back BEHIND YOU while flexing in transition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BToYX1r8Bo4

Nice try but I want you guys to rely on facts not fiction. Glad you picked this as an example since its been missinterpeted enough and proves my simple point just perfectly: his hips are way behind his legs. And that is a fact:



I also think that you can pritty easily see from this next picture (besides that hips are way behind his feet, or feet way ahead of his hips) that there is no strong pulling back movement. If there was his ski tips would not come off of the snow like they do in the frame capture. The primary movement here is that he raised his knees up. He flexed his legs. If he was pulling back his feet while at the same time flexing his legs and lifting his knees and legs up his light touch would have gone missing during the float. He relaxed at that exact moment. Then he pulled his feet back. How far? Behind him? But I guess that is annother story...

post #32 of 48

Why do you insist on playing word games in a language that is secondary to you?  The video demonstrates what everyone is talking about when they say "pull the feet back".  I'm not sure why you keep adding the phrase "behind you"...  Regardless, the video demonstrates the movement.  It is what it is.  Believe it or don't, but that is a World Technical Champion demonstrating it.
 

BTW, your line is off.  His heels are under his hips.  Not his butt, his hips.  Or close enough.  Again, you can argue semantics all you want, but great skiers look like that when they pull their feet back. 

Also, his pullback movement is so strong that his tails come off the ground.  In the frame you are showing, his tips are off the ground because of turn energy and the fact that he is aft balanced.  Which is why he has to use such a strong pull back movement to recenter.

You need to look up the word pedantic and then stop being it.
post #33 of 48
Interesting video. That is a short turn right? Much like a zipperline mogul kind of turn?
That looks like a similar motion to when pushing the tips down in mogul skiing.
How is this beneficial in carved turns?

(If I'm drifting to much OT please answer in the "Transitions?" thread i recently made)
post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I also think that you can pritty easily see from this next picture ...  that there is no strong pulling back movement.
 


You're quite the comedian, TDK6.  Thanks for the hearty laugh after a long day at work. 

This is actually why I didn't follow Helluva's suggestion and post a random elite skier's photo.  The other fella clearly states that he's pulling back hard, so it's not open to contest.  Imagination is the limit for armchair ski theoreticians when the skier isn't arround to comment on their analyses.  (Of course, once in a blue moon they do get caught as when Ligety convinced one to retract an analysis a year ago)  But you're probably safe:  I don't think Hisaya Sato will bother with correcting you.


post #35 of 48
sharpedges, so the feet pull back video clip in slow motion we are watching is made and posted by mr Hisaya Sato himself? And those are his own words?

And, remember that Im not arguing that he is not pulling back his feet. What Im arguing is that he is not pulling his feet back behind him. In the video there is no such thing mentioned. Only feet pull back.
post #36 of 48
I have to say that I don't really understand these arguments about pulling the feet back strongly. It was suggested to the OP that he should reverse his flexing to do retraction/down-unweighting in order to carve cleanly. Then you show a video of Hisaya who is not reallly carving and is doing up-unweighting. Obviously the dynamics of pulling the feet back will be very different in these type of transitions. If you have good snow contact during a retraction transition I argue that you cannot pull your feet back more than to the soft flex-limit of the boot. If you try to pull them back more than that you will push the tips down and thus end up with even more back-seat. Then it will be much more difficult to project with good balance into the next turn.
My 2 (euro) cents
post #37 of 48
Jamt - good posting
post #38 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

sharpedges, so the feet pull back video clip in slow motion we are watching is made and posted by mr Hisaya Sato himself? And those are his own words?

And, remember that Im not arguing that he is not pulling back his feet. What Im arguing is that he is not pulling his feet back behind him. In the video there is no such thing mentioned. Only feet pull back.


  That's not what I said at all.  Exactly the opposite.
  I said that the other skier -- the one with all the books and dvds and youtube clips whose photos can't be posted here -- has said those precise words about turns that are available on the web.  My point is that Sato / Ligety /Schild / Vonn / all the other skiers you can find video of doing this haven't gone out of their way to say that they did it in a specific turn.

Where did this phrase "behind him" come from?  You seem to keep adding it to other people's posts as has been noted above by other posters.  I've had enough of this thread ... see you some other time on another thread.
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post


... see you some other time on another thread.
 

Sometimes it is more effective to say "see you on the snow". In the long run it requires much less typing.
post #40 of 48
I came into this thread a little late, but just want to add a little fuel to the fire.  During a clinic a few years ago led by AJ Kitt, we were talking about Daron Rahlves who at the time was still racing on the WC.  AJ related to us that one of the biggest things Daron was working on in his skiing was "keeping his feet & skis behind him".  Whether he meant this literraly or not does not really make any difference, the image that statement created made a huge impact on me.
My $.02
JF
post #41 of 48
Generally, if the skier has neutral balance such as the weight is distributed through all the sole of the feet, and the tips are not much wider than the tails, what is the benefits of loading the tips?
For a tip-wide ski with a "friendly" tail the purpose is obviously getting them turning, but if the radius is more fore-aft symmetric?
post #42 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post
Where did this phrase "behind him" come from?  You seem to keep adding it to other people's posts as has been noted above by other posters.  I've had enough of this thread ... see you some other time on another thread.

 

I keep adding it because everybody keeps deleting it. I have no gripes with pulling the feet back during the retraction only with the claim that the feet get pulled so far back that they actually are relocated behind you. I will quote the sourse one more time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
At each turn transition when you are light on your skis, strongly pull both feet back behind you

 

Then you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiteebow View Post

Spot on Softsnowguy!
 

Then I asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
skiteebow, you clearly see stuff I dont. Care to explain what exactly is spot on?
 
post #43 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

Generally, if the skier has neutral balance such as the weight is distributed through all the sole of the feet, and the tips are not much wider than the tails, what is the benefits of loading the tips?
For a tip-wide ski with a "friendly" tail the purpose is obviously getting them turning, but if the radius is more fore-aft symmetric?

Its not only a question of being balanced its a question of staying balanced. Having your weight a bit forward can help you stay out of the back seat. Especially if you retract your legs at transition. Its your showels that pull you into the turn. If you tip your skis on edge they will start turning. If you put extra pressure on the tips and depending on the sidecut and flex it turns tighter. I have experimented with placing the binding according to the BallOfFoot measurement and it improved my skiing a lot. Now the ski does more of the hard work with less tip pressure. Something the OP would benefit from IMO.
post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post

I came into this thread a little late, but just want to add a little fuel to the fire.  During a clinic a few years ago led by AJ Kitt, we were talking about Daron Rahlves who at the time was still racing on the WC.  AJ related to us that one of the biggest things Daron was working on in his skiing was "keeping his feet & skis behind him".  Whether he meant this literraly or not does not really make any difference, the image that statement created made a huge impact on me.
My $.02
JF

It was mentioned here earlier, mental cue. Nobody has any gripes with that I think. We all have different mental cues when we do things. Correct me if Im wrong but wasnt Daron a speed skier? In speed events managing the fore aft balance is much more critical. If you look at the WC skiers in their GS free skiing video you will see that they use ILE transitions in order to keep their CoM forward all the time.
post #45 of 48


We have hijacked this thread. Sorry anincali.
post #46 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

Try standing on a flat spot and tapping one ski tip onto the snow. 10 taps in 10 seconds. Then try tapping the tip of the uphill ski during a traverse. Then the downhill ski. When you can comfortably do that. Try making small slow steps from ski to ski through turns the same size you are making in this clip. 10 steps in 10 seconds. Then try starting your turns by using a skate step down the hill with your new inside ski. We need to get you out of the back seat first.


Got all the other info, in fact, I practice it all the time. On your last comment though, on starting your turns using a skate step down the hill with your new inside ski. You lost me on that one.
Edited by nikonfme - 1/30/10 at 7:26am
post #47 of 48
Do you know how to skate on flat ground? Push off the inside edge of one ski and step onto the outside edge of the other, then glide. This is like doing that while making turns on a slope. When you're starting a turn and starting to change to your new edges, instead of rolling to your new edge on your new inside ski, pick it up and make a skate step with it as you're rolling onto your new edge with your new outside ski. When you land on your new inside ski and transfer weight to it, you'll get a good feel for starting a new turn with moving weight to the inside of the turn and leading the new turn with the inside ski.
post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

Do you know how to skate on flat ground? Push off the inside edge of one ski and step onto the outside edge of the other, then glide. This is like doing that while making turns on a slope. When you're starting a turn and starting to change to your new edges, instead of rolling to your new edge on your new inside ski, pick it up and make a skate step with it as you're rolling onto your new edge with your new outside ski. When you land on your new inside ski and transfer weight to it, you'll get a good feel for starting a new turn with moving weight to the inside of the turn and leading the new turn with the inside ski.

OK, It's clear to me now that you specified "as your rolling onto your new edge with your new outside ski". 
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