EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › I am really struggling with figuring out what the bevel angle is PLEASE HELP
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I am really struggling with figuring out what the bevel angle is PLEASE HELP

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Hey Folks: 

I bought a ski kit from Racewax.com and it came with the multi-angle side bevel sharpener.  To practice I took my old skis and measured the bevel angle and it came out to 1.5 degrees.  I then checked three more pairs of skis and each came out the same 1.5 degrees.  So I took the file on my old skis set it to 3 degrees and ran through 8 or passes.  I check the bevel again using the marker method again 1.5 degrees.  Should the angle have not changed after the filing?   I am pretty frustated because I am not 100% sure what angle my skis are at.  I do not want to start sharpening if I am not sure.  Can you help or give some suggestions.  Maybe I am doing something wrong.  I read all the instructions on racewax.com so I am not what the problem is.  

Claude
 
post #2 of 22
Have you tried email or call Marc for help? He was super helpful when I bought my tools from him.
post #3 of 22
I would think it takes more than8 passes to go from 1.5 to 3 degrees. Seeing thaat you are trying it on old skis, keep on filing. And be sure that you are measuring correctly. I would contact your dealer and check it out. Also you might take a Marks-a-lot and put a mark on the edge to indicate how you are progressing.

Cheers...Rick H
post #4 of 22
The problem most liekly is you must cut back the sidewall adjacent to the edgE. 8 passess should be plenty to go from a 1.5 to a 3.

You either need a sidewall planer (I highly recommend this) or try using your file for 2 or 3 passes at 5 degrees. Then file until sharp at 4 degrees and then fisnish at 3 degrees.

You should also do this with a finer file each time. for instance  first a Panser then a Bastard then a 2nd cut.

3 degrees almost always requires the sidewall be planed back.

do you have white powdery substance in your file or is your file clean after filing?

What ski is this you are working on?
Edited by Atomicman - 1/21/10 at 6:41pm
post #5 of 22

May need to cut back sidewall.

post #6 of 22
Wow
post #7 of 22
Thread Starter 
The ski I am trying to change from 1.5 to 3 is an old Volkl V3 Carver.  The ski that i really want at 3 degrees is the Atomic Crimson TI.  but I do not want to experiment on my baby :)   

I have not called Marc, but I have emailed him and he is excellent at answering my questions, but I just cannot seem to get this right.

Claude .   
 
post #8 of 22
I am not a fan of multi angle tuners to begin with. I don't remember for sure but I thought the V3 a cap ski?

the Atomic definetly is going to need to be planed too. I just worked on a pair of  Stomps and we own at least 14 pair of Atomic skis currently. I had to plane the area above the edge considerably to get a proper 3 degree. I highly doubt your skis are a 1.5 now, more likely a 2 but with the Cap material in the way you can't get an accurate read.

Vertical sidewalls are easy to work with, but this can still be done. maybe you should let a shoop cut back the sidewall for you.

www.Artechski.com sells a fairly inexpensive 7 degree edge bevel tool to be used with a panser file to cut back the sidewalls.
post #9 of 22

Did anyone answer your question regarding what the bevel is? 
There is a side bevel and a base bevel.

EJL

post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
Hey Atomicman: 

I am not sure what a cap ski is. 

At this point I feel like I am in over my head.  How do I know if I have to cut away the side wall?  Is there some easy way to tell just by looking? You wouldn't have a picture to help illustrate?  

I would love to take it to a shop but the closest (good) one is 3.5 hours away.  I live in the flatest part of Ontario :) 

What if I went with a 2 degree side bevel would I have to trim the side wall?

I appreciate all your help while I am learning. 

Claude
 
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigK75 View Post

At this point I feel like I am in over my head.  How do I know if I have to cut away the side wall?  Is there some easy way to tell just by looking? You wouldn't have a picture to help illustrate?
 

If the plastic at the edge is flush or proud, you need to get it out of the way of the edge so the cutting or polishing can make direct contact with the edge. A file should cut the side wall while cutting however, whereas a diamond gets gummed up with plastic, naking it obvious that you need to remove it or back file.



Here's our weblog post on side wall removal.
post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 
Hey Guys: 

Now I understand.  So whats the right thing to do here: 
1. Drive to the ski shop that can do the work and cut back the material.  A 3.5 hour drive, but I will go skiing at the same time.
2. Make a 2 degree angle on my Atomic Crimson TI and hope enough material will be removed.
3. Order a side cutter.

What do you guys think?

Claude
post #13 of 22
Firstly, you have to realize that if you are serious about tuning, it's going to cost you.  You're going to have to buy files, stones, sidewall planers, edge guides--and these are expensive.

Having said that, if you are serious about tuning, you should get the proper tuning equipment.  The multi-tool isn't the best.  I have one, and it doesn't really do what it says it does (on mine, even though it says 3 degrees it's actually more like 2 degrees)

Here's what I would get: sidewall planer, 3 degree SVST side edge guide, spring clamp, diamond stones (100, 400 grits), arkansas stone, aluminum oxide stones (400, 600 grit), and file (I have this one: http://www.holmenkol.co.nz/webapps/site/74810/122705/shopping/shopping-view.html?pid=341578).
post #14 of 22
You know if the sidewall is in your way when working on the side edges if after making a pass with your file you have white powder that your file scrubbed off . this is  resin material from the Cap. Or Phenolic material from a verticla sidewall.

By the way a CAP is a one piece top sheet on your skis that curves down on each side and meets with the edge.  so the sidewall is integral with the top sheet.

Verticla sidewall skis have a generally flat top sheet and separate pieces that are vertical that extend from the edge up to meet the upper cornere of the top sheet. the top sheet adn sidewall are seoparate pieces of material and generall form a 90 degree angle or close to it at the top edge of the ski.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigK75 View Post

Hey Atomicman: 

I am not sure what a cap ski is. 

At this point I feel like I am in over my head.  How do I know if I have to cut away the side wall?  Is there some easy way to tell just by looking? You wouldn't have a picture to help illustrate?  

I would love to take it to a shop but the closest (good) one is 3.5 hours away.  I live in the flatest part of Ontario :) 

What if I went with a 2 degree side bevel would I have to trim the side wall?

I appreciate all your help while I am learning. 

Claude
 
post #15 of 22
You can cut back enough sidewall on V3s to do this, if that is the problem. 

You just need a heavier duty file, panzer or bastard rather than 2nd-cut type.

(sorry to be Captain Obvious here, but you are talking about having used a metal-tooth-type file and not a diamond stone?)

Question: when you made the 8 passes, what was coming off the tuner?  obvious metal filings, look like little cat-whiskers of steel?   bits of whitish-grey plastic?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigK75 View Post

Hey Guys: 

Now I understand.  So whats the right thing to do here: 
1. Drive to the ski shop that can do the work and cut back the material.  A 3.5 hour drive, but I will go skiing at the same time.
2. Make a 2 degree angle on my Atomic Crimson TI and hope enough material will be removed.
3. Order a side cutter.

What do you guys think?

Claude
post #16 of 22
For the first round, it might be more worthwhile to take them to the shop.  Once your skis are set up to your preferred configuration, you'll be able to maintain them yourself fairly easily.

Pick a quiet time during the day, and the shop techs will generally be happy to give you some advice on how to do your own tuning.  They will also have some of the additional tools you need for your own toolbox, and can give you instructions on usage at the time of purchase.

Where's youre 3.5 hour destination in Ontario?  If it's an area I know, I might have some specific suggestions for shops to try.
post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 
Hey MogulMuncher: 

I live in London, Ontario.  I was thinking of going to Squire John's.  I was going to go to Talisman so its a bit out of my way.  Do you have any other suggestions.  I was going to go this weekend on Saturday.  

Thanks,

Claude
post #18 of 22
Review Atomicman's and Comprex's posts above.

First off, I have no idea what "8 passes" means.
Usually when filing one makes a bunch of overlapping short strokes and finishes with a long one.
Did you remove the sidewall? Even with the cap constructed V3 there's stuff to get out of the way.
This is job #2 after deburring, decasehardening - job #1.
Did you diamond stone first to remove the burrs and case hardening? You have to listen to the file. Sometimes you have to repeat this step in some areas.
Is the file cutting?
post #19 of 22
another thing you can do is take a marker, and color in the side edge
then do a few passes, and see if the marker is gone.  if the marker is not gone, then your sidewall is in the way, and you need to plane it back.
post #20 of 22

DId I miss anyone answering his original question regarding bevels? 

I thought I might read some interesting comments on SIDE bevel vs. BASE bevel.

At our shop in SYLVAN LAKE, MICHIGAN, not too far from London, but across a bridge, we have a stone that has a "radial" aspect to it that creates a "base bevel" that is dependent upon the width of the ski at that particular location.  This allows for the ski to get on edge "easier" or "quicker" yet allows for it to "hold" once there.

We have folks driving up from Columbus, Ohio for this unique opportunity.  I am not our tune expert but I understand there are very few of these "world cup" stones in use.

EJL

post #21 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the rely EJL, I will keep this in mind for next time.  

I should follow up on the outcome.  After reading all the replies and speaking with Marc, I decided to take the file and create a 2 degree side bevel.  With a 2 degree side bevel I did not have to cut the side wall.  I left the base bevel since it was already 1 degree.  I was a little worried about using a file, but after a oouple of passes I could tell there where areas where the metal had been filed away and there was no more resistance.  I filed until there was no resistance anywhere on the edge.  I than used the blue, red and green diamond stones to poliish the side and base bevels.  I drove up the Talisman about 2.5 hours way from London Ontario.  I tried the skis and I could not believe the difference.  It was like the skis where on rails.  I am super happy with the outcome.  From now on all I will do is use the diamond stones after each outing. Thanks for all the replies folks, this forum is awesome.  

Thanks,

Claude    
 
post #22 of 22
Get a Plane Beast.  Before any side edge work, hit the side edges with the Plane Beast.  Your going to need this tool all the time, so spring for the 40 dollars.  It will last forever.  You will save money from driving, and paying someone else to do what you can do easy yourself.
Also once you start to file, or stone, be sure the file or stone is not sticking out so far as to hit the side of a vertical side ski.  Cap design will not give you the same problem.
I don't like "Multi-tools".   Fixed guides are best. 
Good luck.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › I am really struggling with figuring out what the bevel angle is PLEASE HELP