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Which are more "marginal", domestic or foreign instructors...? - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Whoa, time out! Nolo, you damn well know that I pay back certification fees after the successful completion of the following season of work. It does happen. I also have 4 (average) 16 year old assistants whom I pay a scholarship to for level I. The number of people registering for certification at this school this year (my first) has over doubled. Thanks for being the devils advocate however. I DO PUT THE RESORT'S MONEY WHERE THEIR HEART WAS/IS/WILL BE!
To my friend to the north...I agree about Level IV, that's why I have yet found an opportunity to go (my dad has his) and am happy at III. I am presently an inactive member (since '74 when at 16 I went to work for Wayne Booth at Seymour). I ABHOR the "money grab" if that was not clear. CSIA I is a novelty pursuit for the idle rich and yet an expensive requirement for the pure at heart rookie instructor. But in the states, many teach with barely a pulse and no training.
By the way, Nolo, no new instructor taught here until they had approximately 5 full days training, 4 level I and 4 level 2 shadows plus a reverse shadow on their first go. Calculate the cost if this training was paid (which rarely happens) and you know clear well why SAM doesn't do it.
post #32 of 53
Robin,

I do know damn well that YOU do it, but I was making a point off one of your comments. I'm glad you provided the rest of the story.

Quote:
Calculate the cost if this training was paid (which rarely happens) and you know clear well why SAM doesn't do it.
I'm not suggesting that people should be paid for training, but that the tuition or fees be covered at Level I and that they be recovered at Levs. II-III for returning each season.

Sorry to have raised your BP. You know I think you da bomb of SSDs.
post #33 of 53
Robin, good to here that we actually seem to have quite similar views on this. Your program for certifying and training sounds impressive and comprehensive. I think it was good Nolo further stoked the flames for you to clarify your comments because the first comments did seem to misrepresent your true views on this.

(Edit add in) My views come from the brutal treatment of ski pros in my region. I realize (hope) other areas treat pros like pros but it is a sad state of affairs here if not for much of Canada in general. I can assure you the training program you speak of either does not happen around here or in some cases happens on a much smaller scale than you speak of. (end edit)

We currently are offering our staff (a ski shop) the level 1 course at a fraction of the price you mentioned (high side of the going rate around here). This is because we want to encourage our people's involvement in the industry. The industry and profession will only be strong because of the people (individuals) involved and not because of the organization overseeing it or the people who control that organization.

I guess it's sort of like student based learning as opposed to teacher based learning. It should be a member based organization in all ways not an organization based membership.

hmmmm Perhaps I should email a link to this thread to the CSIA head office.

[ March 02, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: L7 ]
post #34 of 53
I did the level 1 and considering 3 instructors were involved, (one level 4 and two level 3s) for 4 days I think it was a bargain. I don't think anyone would be getting rich on the profits from this operation.

Regarding the level of difficulty. I feel it's better to have a person of a known (though possibly low) qualifications teaching children or never-evers than just opening it up to anyone who can bolt on a pair of skis.

Many, if not most, qualifications I can think of require some degree of expenditure on behalf of the candidate. Sure it would be nice to think somebody else should pay for it. They generally don't, that's life. In the grand scheme of things the actual cost of being "certified" as an instructor is miniscule if this is your chosen profession.

Cheers,

Pete
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pete:
I did the level 1 and considering 3 instructors were involved, (one level 4 and two level 3s) for 4 days I think it was a bargain. I don't think anyone would be getting rich on the profits from this operation.

In the grand scheme of things the actual cost of being "certified" as an instructor is miniscule if this is your chosen profession.

Cheers,

Pete
I'll tell you three people who definitely weren't getting rich. That would be your 3 course conductors. Some of the course fees go to the CSIA for materials, administration etc, the lion's share goes to the ski school in what I refer to as a revenue grab. The conductors who are essentially the product are grossly under paid relative to what this brings in but the sad thing is it's better than a normal teaching day.

In the grand scheme of things 'the actual cost being miniscule' is all very relative. I suggest that an airline pilot (?) has a different sense of miniscule cost and purpose than someone trying to make a start in a career. I would also guess that your miniscule outlay had little to do with a career change.

If this is simply another level of lesson and product for a ski school to offer that's great. However the purpose of the CSIA is to certify it's members and promote professionalism in the industry not help market lessons and generate revenue for ski schools.

Starving is not professional and a professional pilot is not a professional ski instructor. Even if a pilot/lawyer/doctor
/teacher/mechanic is perfectly capable of being a professional ski instructor fact is they choose not to be and that choice probably centres around monetary reasons.

I understand you were here a couple of weeks ago, too bad you weren't here this week to see the article on the poverty levels for ski instructors in the area. We're not just talking level 1s here. Some have made out all right. Pretty well none of them by teaching exclusively. High paying summer jobs, sleep deprivation and moonlighting and an affinity for the finer things such as mac and cheese (kraft dinner) and ichiban noodles carries these people for far too many years and drives far too many away.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pete:
I did the level 1 and considering 3 instructors were involved, (one level 4 and two level 3s) for 4 days I think it was a bargain. I don't think anyone would be getting rich on the profits from this operation.

In the grand scheme of things the actual cost of being "certified" as an instructor is miniscule if this is your chosen profession.

Cheers,

Pete
I'll tell you three people who definitely weren't getting rich. That would be your 3 course conductors. Some of the course fees go to the CSIA for materials, administration etc, the lion's share goes to the ski school in what I refer to as a revenue grab. The conductors who are essentially the product are grossly under paid relative to what this brings in but the sad thing is it's better than a normal teaching day.

In the grand scheme of things 'the actual cost being miniscule' is all very relative. I suggest that an airline pilot (?) has a different sense of miniscule cost and purpose than someone trying to make a start in a career. I would also guess that your miniscule outlay had little to do with a career change.

If this is simply another level of lesson and product for a ski school to offer that's great. However the purpose of the CSIA is to certify it's members and promote professionalism in the industry not help market lessons and generate revenue for ski schools.

Starving is not professional and a professional pilot is not a professional ski instructor. Even if a pilot/lawyer/doctor
/teacher/mechanic is perfectly capable of being a professional ski instructor fact is they choose not to be and that choice probably centres around monetary reasons.

I understand you were here a couple of weeks ago, too bad you weren't here this week to see the article on the poverty levels for ski instructors in the area. We're not just talking level 1s here. Some have made out all right. Pretty well none of them by teaching exclusively. High paying summer jobs, sleep deprivation and moonlighting and an affinity for the finer things such as mac and cheese (kraft dinner) and ichiban noodles carries these people for far too many years and drives far too many away.
post #37 of 53
L7, for the moment I'll ignore some of your comments until my blood pressure reaches a more normal level. I have difficulty however in following the logic, if any, of your argument against me, given that I was supporting the fact that the operation, hence these instructors had gained little monetary value from my instruction.

In referring to miniscule I was referring to the cost compared to attending university/college, or pretty much any other self-funded education. You want to know how much it cost me to educate myself for MY profession?

While the BP settles, I’ll note the following from your post.

1.You allege the CSIA level 1 course is a “revenue grab”
2.You suppose to know what airline pilots earn, and more particularly what I earn.
3.You suppose to know what my career goals are.
4.“Starving is not professional and a professional pilot is not a professional ski instructor. Even if a pilot/lawyer/doctor/teacher/mechanic is perfectly capable of being a professional ski instructor fact is they choose not to be and that choice probably centres around monetary reasons.” Well fact is I’m at a total loss to note anything much from this paragraph at all, given the contradictions it contains.
5.You suppose that the ski instruction industry is the only one where a person must work a second job in order to support him/herself

I’ll leave it at that L7, just leave it at that.
:
post #38 of 53
Temper....temper, kidz! The industry is ripe with contradictions to logic, antiquated labor practices and myriad inconsistancies in "fairness". Even going in we knew making car payments was going to be an issue...hell, most pros I have known have never, ever recouped in pay what they have outlayed in education, travel and equipment, supplementing with high paying off season employment, moonlighting (and of course the seldom mentioned but not unheard of "trust fund"). In this we were not blind! We have always been our own worst enemy when SAM holds our "passion/raison d'etre" hostage. We do what we do for love, SAM does what we allow it to do. Period. Instructors are the world's greatest enablers of Resort greed.
Nolo, Nolo, I know ya love me girl! I just needed to hear it! With my highly honed principles, I might yet "bomb out" of this biz....especially with this lame ass economy! By the way the BP is great....this flu ain't!

[ March 02, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Robin ]
post #39 of 53
Let's face it your blood pressure goes up when someone disagrees with you, I've already seen that in another recent thread. I SUGGESTED a pilot (and added a question mark to pilot because I'm not sure) has a different sense of fiscal need based on what I know of teaching here and what I know of pilots I know. I could be wrong but that doesn't mean you need to put words in my mouth I assumed nothing. Perhaps you assume a great deal from your vast experience of your level 1 course. I have no idea what your career aspirations are I only hope for what they are not. As I said before to you, I'm here on this board to share ideas and thoughts, not make myself feel better. To each their own.
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Robin:
The industry is ripe with contradictions to logic, antiquated labor practices and myriad inconsistancies in "fairness". Even going in we knew making car payments was going to be an issue...hell, most pros I have known have never, ever recouped in pay what they have outlayed in education, travel and equipment, supplementing with high paying off season employment, moonlighting (and of course the seldom mentioned but not unheard of "trust fund"). In this we were not blind! We have always been our own worst enemy when SAM holds our "passion/raison d'etre" hostage. We do what we do for love, SAM does what we allow it to do. Period. Instructors are the world's greatest enablers of Resort greed.
Robin I agree with you here but i believe the point of this thread (I apologize for highjacking) was whether or not this is good for the industry as a whole. My point is (is meant to be) that in the long run this situation isn't good for instructors or the industry. The fact the question comes up for debate about whether foreign or domestic instructors are better indicates there is disparity and need for debate. Somewhere I read something about, 'An organization is strongest that can accomodate it's detractors.' It's what keeps the entity strong and evolving.
post #41 of 53
Quote:
OUR alliance owned by the membership but controlled by ski school directors and aspiring directors does not look at what they can do for their members (owners) but looks at what they can get from them.
mmm sounds just like the situation downunder!!!

The really funny part is that once an "workers alliance" lies down with the corporation it becomes redundant.

Most of this thread is irrelevant as SS internationally slowly morfs into a dumbed down part time existence for those that earn thier living in a "real" job and take part time teaching holidays for a season pass and tips.

There are many PROs out there in SS land that have the passion and commitment to continually improve all aspects of thier product BUT slowly they are being forced out by the whole mediocre business plan of providing part time instructors.

The full cert, internationally experienced, teaching 9 months of the year instructor is being made redundant by the business model of many Ski School corporate entities that encourages the employment of part time instructors that teach 20 days a winter, attend minimal clinics, peak at maybe LevII certification, don't really need the cash and can't demo the turn they are describing.

Lets see $525 for an all day private, I get about $150 + about $5 in rent subsidies .... must be the most lopsided labour agency I have ever worked for .... and I worked in I.T. for 10 years . Lets see how do we improve this business model ... oh yeh lets employ people that cost less and go away when we tell them ... dress em up in a nice uniform ... train em up to LevI so they can put "Certified Instructor" on thier business card ...

The SS GLORY DAYS are over. All thats left is to SKI as many lines as we can until our times up.

Hey the snows been FANTASTIC the last week :

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #42 of 53
Okay, sorry, I agree! Back to the original intent of this thread. I believe all foreign certs are marginal....I should know, I am certified in three countries, and I am bloody mariginal! Hee, Hee!
post #43 of 53
Oz, as I understand it NZ still has the model you describe. I spoke to some of the candidates last season and they were paying quite high prices for the process of being "certified". However the process took some time, hence it would be more difficult to compare costs directly. Do you have any idea of how the NZ model generates revenue as opposed to the shorter courses? It would seem that the longer course would be a disincentive to those who just want to do the course for personal reasons.

Cheers,

Pete
post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by man from oz:
Most of this thread is irrelevant as SS internationally slowly morfs into a dumbed down part time existence for those that earn thier living in a "real" job and take part time teaching holidays for a season pass and tips.

There are many PROs out there in SS land that have the passion and commitment to continually improve all aspects of thier product BUT slowly they are being forced out by the whole mediocre business plan of providing part time instructors.

The full cert, internationally experienced, teaching 9 months of the year instructor is being made redundant by the business model of many Ski School corporate entities that encourages the employment of part time instructors that teach 20 days a winter, attend minimal clinics, peak at maybe LevII certification, don't really need the cash and can't demo the turn they are describing.

[snip]

The SS GLORY DAYS are over. All thats left is to SKI as many lines as we can until our times up.

Hey the snows been FANTASTIC the last week :

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
Most intuitive post I think I've ever read (as a 9 month of a year, fully certified pro). Thanks, Oz - sums up many of my feelings.

Pity you weren't at Lionshead when I was (98/99 - 00/01) - would have liked to have met you.

Cheers!
post #45 of 53
However as I suggested above, is this industry so different from others in this regard? It may not make it right, but is it just a sign of the times. Once upon a time, for example, we went into a specialist retailer and bought the widget we were after. The sales-person knew their product and had an opinion we could trust. Now we walk into the local mega-mart, self-serve, and go to the cashier where a kid processes the sale. Is the new ski school model just a version of the mega-mart? In the quest for increasing profits and decreasing costs everyone but the stakeholders suffers.

Just a thought.

Pete
post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by CM:
Pity you weren't at Lionshead when I was (98/99 - 00/01) - would have liked to have met you.

Cheers!
NOW - if we have an OZ gathering this winter - YOU CAN!
post #47 of 53
Quote:
Originally posted by Pete:
Bring it on Dis
OK - responses in this thread please...

here
post #48 of 53
[ March 03, 2003, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: Skidmo ]
post #49 of 53
Bring it on Dis
post #50 of 53
To return to the point about uncertified people teaching kids: with my PSIA II, the larger US hills still seem to require me to teach in kids ski school, which is rather annoying. They seem to view foreigners as a source of faceless labour, rather than bringing anything to the job.

I'll be starting my job hunt for next US season pretty soon, and wonder what I'll find!
post #51 of 53
Like Robin says, I am a "marginal" instructor as well. Not cause I cannot ski a "contempary turn" or teach a "free form" lesson but rather because I just quit and will be home in Oz around the 15th of April. I will not be back next year.

Hey it is dumping again in Vail\BC. :

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #52 of 53
eeek, what's the story Man from Oz? Had enough? or...?
post #53 of 53
See his other post ant
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