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Something off in the tune? - Page 2

post #31 of 55

Your defensiveness is unbecoming! . You also have no sense of humor whatsoever! Buckaroo was term of endearment, sorry you took so much offense to it!  That's what me kids call themselves when reffering to their younger dys! Wow, lighten up!

And actually contrary to your ridiculous attack on me personally, I was rather complimentary of your son!!

and I qoute  from my post above!  "I certainly was not being critical of the young man's fortitude and sheer enthusiasm. A job well done.!!!

Just the technique!

Maybe he has a future in TV as a Newsanchor or weatherman!"

or  for anyone else!

"Look anyone is certainly free to do as they please. But this base up nonsense to do the side edge is just awkward as hell! 

It makes absolutley no sense to me. But rock on!"

Boy that seems really mean and insensitive!!!!  Just terrible!  give me a break. You are being a big puss!

There is a right and wrong way to do most jobs. Life is not a free for all with no rules. Nor are most disciplnes!

And yes I like the saying learn all the rules and then go break 'em. But ya gotta learn 'em first before you discard them!

If there is no proper way to tune,  why are so many folks on this forum posting questions about how to ski tune correctly?

And by the way Mr. Geometry, many ski vises won't allow your side edge technique! The vise itself or the end supports ubstruct the path of the stone.

tools are designed to be used in a particular fashion and generally for a reason. 

Yes you can use a flathead screw driver to unscrew a slotted screw from the side, but it was designed to be placed straight down into the slot!! both ways you end up with the screw where you want it, but there is definetely a more accurate more efficient and more comfortable way to do it!

Why would you make things more difficult.  I could probaly change the oil in my car standing on my head too, I can certainly get the oil out and not change it again for 3k miles, but what is the point!

You comment on a progression of skill to tune your skis.: Yes, indeed, but any learning progression needs to be built on a strong foundation.

Posting that video was irresponsible as a demonstration of proper side edge maintenance to the poor unsuspecting new tuner who is already already struggling, trying to learn to tune and you argue that  some awkward goofy way of side tuning is easier.  It;s not,  it's more difficult and muuch more awkward and since you agreed that a file should be used with the side edge up why in the hell would you then turn ski base up to then diamond stone it. 

Who is the one being stubborn here?????  

By the way when I pull my head out of my ass you may plant a big kiss on it!

You make ourself out to be an expert in the tuning field and a purveyor of top notch tuning gear!  

Now act like one! Adopt some freaking standards!
there is really no reason to re-invent the wheel!

I know of no article, or no other proficient tuner that tunes theri side edges your way. But just do what ya like, really it's OK with me. But don't be a Jehovah's Witness for the wrong way!

Many more people have thanked me for sharing my tuning knowledge then have lambasted me!  And yes I have been insensitive and rude to the morons who talk about reverse camber 140 mm waisted skis being good on groomers and will continue to argue with idiots who believe these are all mountain skis!

Tell your kid he done good in spite of his grumpy old dad!

Edited by Atomicman - 1/22/10 at 4:13pm
post #32 of 55
Thank you.  IMO with A-man, it's always his way and no other way.  Although I realized today that years ago I did do it his way and for some reason stopped doing it that way, can't remember why.  I think it was something to do with the clamp and some fancy lump in the ski or something...or maybe it was after I hit that tree I forgot how to tune my skis...  But, been doing it this way with no problems for the last couple years.  I'll have to experiment the next time I do my edges and figure out why I stopped. 

Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post



Define 'insensitive poster', buckaroo. Someone who doesn't agree with you and clearly sees other methods of achieving the same or very adequate results? Pull your heads out of your asses and realize most questions here are not about ultimate tuning, but moving towards that someday.

If the objective is to run a guide along a ski at a consistent angle to run a VERY FORGIVING diamond along the edge to achieve a smooth, sharp edge what difference does it make what direction the bases face? (Other than it's not the way you do it and think it should be done.) For the record, there are many of us here that are very familiar with tools and materials and deal with far more complicated technical tasks on a daily basis than honing a ski edge with simply tools.
post #33 of 55
FWIW, and to change the topic a bit, I find that the orientation of the ski in the vise is far less important than having minimal reverse camber in the ski.
post #34 of 55
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Thank you.  IMO with A-man, it's always his way and no other way. 

Gulity as charged when it comes to tuning skis!

post #35 of 55
Don't make me post every video, website and tuning instructional guide that says side edge work is done with the skis side edge up,

But here a a few anyway!   Note Side edge verbiage!!!

From the Marc at Racewax, a respected Forum member!

Side Edge Tuning

  • Mount the ski side edge up with base facing away from you.
  • NOTE 1: Do not over tighten the clamp on the ski base.
  • NOTE 2: You may need to scrape away some of the ski material, or sidewall in order to attain the filing angle you desire. Use a sidewall cutter for this. Keep in mind that this surface should be smooth and polished after cutting. See Sidewall Cutting.
  • File edge at desired angle in the same manner as you did the base edge.
  • Polish with coarse (blue), fine (red) then x-fine (green) diamond stones.
  • NOTE 3: The goal is to increase performance by polishing the edges. There are small burrs on the edge after filing. Polished edges are faster and sharper.
  • For an even finer polish follow up diamond polish with an Arkansas stone or a ceramic edge stone.
  • A magnifying glass is handy to examine the edge structure; look for a mirror finish.
  • Go back to the base edge and re-polish with fine diamond stones.
  • Deburr the edges with a gumi stone by lightly running it along the edge (tip to tail) at a 45 degree angle.
Hanging burr removal with gummi stone on ski edge

Alpinord: Odd man out!
post #36 of 55
Well, I'm long past weary of reading more PreacherMan diatribes on stuff that doesn't truly matter to most recreational skiers. I do appreciate some of the insights provided but not a 'deer in the head lights' follower.

I've tuned skis, worked with all kinds of tools and materials all my life and there is definitely more than one way to achieve desired results. My hands on and analytical skill set is far beyond being the simple honing of a metal ski edge, not to mention my professional problem solving design skills of looking at an issue and seeing many alternatives to solving the problem or issue (technical and subjective). In other words, I'm not close minded nor blindly move forward without analyzing the situation and objectively experimenting......and understanding motivations and merits (or not) behind common practices, I also work with many very highly skilled craftsman on very complicated geometric projects that would make a non-egocentric ski tuner blush. I've also taught skiing and see no difference here where a person needs a progression, time and mileage to go from zero to double black/race tunes with a full spectrum of acceptable levels for one's personal preferences, goals and time available.

The simple fact is orientation of the ski bases does not matter. Contact, angle and pressure does. Some of of us, including a 13 year old boy gets the intent and is more interested in quickly getting the results than the how.

Too much snow to remove and ski in to argue who's right or wrong. Don't get hung up in the small stuff A-man gets worked up over, experiment and find your path over time. If you think about the abuse your skis get cranking turns on abrasive snows and hitting stuff, can you really do more damage on a bench if you are paying attention and have common sense? Recreational ski tuning is not difficult and certainly not something to continually insult others over.

And again.....the video was posted to give a good illustration of the basic technique of removing a frickin' micro burr......Jeez!
Edited by Alpinord - 1/23/10 at 7:10am
post #37 of 55
Originally Posted by chanwmr View Post


Do you think it really matters all that much which side is up with my ski vise?
post #38 of 55
Wow.  I think Terry's son wins the prize for the most effective tune relative to the most humble attitude and most gracious behavior.  A close second goes to the late Doug Coombs.  So we have a young kid and a deceased ski guide setting the example.  Awesome.  Wiki anyone?
post #39 of 55
Thread Starter 

I don't think the orientation matters as much as the results.  As far as I am concerned what ever is comfortable for the person doing the work is the correct way to hold the skis.

As far as the original post goes I brought my skis home yesterday do believe there is a small bur on edge.  I am just waiting on the tools I ordered from Terry to get here so I can fix it and get back to enjoying a great pair of skis.

post #40 of 55
Originally Posted by cstreu1026 View Post

I don't think the orientation matters as much as the results.  As far as I am concerned what ever is comfortable for the person doing the work is the correct way to hold the skis.

As far as the original post goes I brought my skis home yesterday do believe there is a small bur on edge.  I am just waiting on the tools I ordered from Terry to get here so I can fix it and get back to enjoying a great pair of skis.

You ought to be tuning shortly (thanks, BTW).

This weekend at T-ride after Saturday nailing some rocks, receiving a core shot and dinging my edges, I simply leaned the skis against the condo railing in the sunshine, pulled out my Diaface pocket guide and diamond and smooth and sharpened the edges in a few minutes. They were fine yesterday on steep and fast groomers, bumps, etc. I could not help chuckling to myself about how simple and quick it was and this thread. I went from skis vertical to holding the tail in one hand or on my thigh while I worked the lower section of the skis while depressing the ski brake.

Note to self: keep a binding retainer with pocket guide for even easier quick touch ups.....anywhere, in any position.
post #41 of 55
Thread Starter 
Well I worked over the side edges and took them out yesterday and they still ski like total garbage.  My next thought is that base bevel is off.  I guess it's time to order more tools.
post #42 of 55
Define 'ski like total garbage'

Can you show us pictures of your results? Can you see a difference in the tunes between the Goats and the Sultans? Have you had the shop put a gauge on the Goats to see what the bevels actually are?
post #43 of 55
When you say you worked over the side edges, you don't mention removing the hanging burr.

Understand, the hanging burr is caused by working the side edges but is hanging down on the base edge. You must use a stone against the base edge as explained earlier to remove it.

I am not sure you understood all the posts referring to the burr problem. it is solved by stoning the base edge,  again as explained earlier.

If it is not a hanging burr,(which I believe it most likely is) then it is too little or variable, uneven base edge bevel. Base edge bevel has far greater effect on a skis skiing characteristics then does side edge bevel.

Concavity normally will not cause this in and of itself, unless your bases are concave from edge to edge with no flat area at all along the edges. Although concavity in the center of the ski in the tip and tail area can cause you to 'Under Bevel" the base edges in the tip and tail are (Normally where most concavity occurs) and this can paly havoc with your skis similar to a hanging burr.

I don't believe anyone on this thread ever suggested that the problem was caused by your side edge bevel. 
Edited by Atomicman - 2/4/10 at 4:16pm
post #44 of 55
Thread Starter 
Skis like garbage...skis nothing like it did from the factory.  As soon as you start to tip it on edge it grabs.  The sultans have not been tunes so they are just the way they came from the factory.  Since I'm in southwest Ohio I doubt I will find any shop in the area with the tools to measure the bevel.

And you're right...after re-reading the little bit of useful information posted initially I misunderstood where the bur was.  I guess I got lost in the all the useless bickering about the proper orientation of a ski in a vice.

When I get back to the hill tomorrow I will try smoothing out the base edge with an Akansas and gummi stone to see if that fixes it.
post #45 of 55
Maybe a little tip de-tuning or base bevel change will help. If you are sure it's not a burr, you can start progressively altering the base bevel, or detuning a couple inches at a time.

Here's one base bevel measuring option with feeler gauges:

Do you have a simple straight edge to see how flat the bases are? If railed/concave:

It'd be easy to see with back lighting. (The above shows around some base next to the egde an is not railed.)
post #46 of 55
Thread Starter 
I think I can manage that with the tools currently in the garage.
post #47 of 55
Originally Posted by cstreu1026 View Post

I think I can manage that with the tools currently in the garage.

I'll bet you can:

Aren't all 4 wheels supposed be used at the same time to improve performance?
post #48 of 55
Just hit a box in the terrain park and throw a spin on top to knock the burrs off
post #49 of 55
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

I'll bet you can:

Aren't all 4 wheels supposed be used at the same time to improve performance?


That car actually belongs to buddy.  I just help out from time to time.  Mine won't do that...yet.

Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Just hit a box in the terrain park and throw a spin on top to knock the burrs off

Well they are twin tips so maybe that's why they aren't working right.
post #50 of 55
Thread Starter 
Well I think it was definitely a hanging bur.  We got a fair amount of snow on Monday.  When I got to the hill I gave the edge a quick polish with an Arkansas and gumi stone and that seemed to do the trick, but I will have to take them out on a groomer or two this weekend to confirm.
post #51 of 55
You won't know until you ski harder snow!
post #52 of 55
Thread Starter 
 Well it was 8 inches on top of hard pack.  There were plenty of places where I made consistent contact with the hard snow and they felt much better, but you're right I won't know for sure until Saturday until I get to ski nothing but groomers. 
post #53 of 55
 I have skied with a hanging burr that was not noticeable on soft snow, but the moment I hit some ice, the edged were virtually magnetically stuck to the snow.  Nice if you need traction on ice and only want to turn at the sidecut radius, but a handful otherwise.
post #54 of 55
Thread Starter 
 I got to ski them in more normal (for Indiana) conditions today and they seem much much better.  If my new Hellbents don't show up in time they will be going to Utah with me on Monday.
post #55 of 55
Oh get the fluff off the saintlihood act, Atomic.

Half way through the thread relieving your bladder appears to have been cheif among your goals in life.
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