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Base bewel advice

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
After reading a lot on this forum, I went to my ski shop and let them sharpen my ski edges: 0,5 degree base, 3 degrees side.
They have good reputation, they tune skis for local racers and I have always been satisfied with their work.
After the guy sharpened my skis, he told me to give them a try and come back to tune them some more, but if I'm really into "carving", he would advise 0 degree base bevel.

I went to ski yesterday - hard artificial snow with occasional ice - that's what we have here most of the year (small local resort in Austria). 75% of the time I liked the skis, but 25% I'd like them to keep on edges better. Would the 0 degree base bevel help? Or is it my technique ...

I have Atomic GS11 skis, Salomon  S-Lab X3 boots and like aggressive, "pure carving" whenever possible.

Thanks a lot!
Martin 
post #2 of 22
I would go with an extra degree of side bevel before taking the base right down to zero.  Once the ski is tipped, it doesn't really care that much what base bevel you have; it only cares how acute the angle is.  When the ski is flat it will care what base bevel you have on those rare occasions when you want to slide an edge and zero base bevel is not what you want for that.  Also when running straight, opposing edges will be fighting each other, and the skis will run faster with more base bevel.
post #3 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I would go with an extra degree of side bevel before taking the base right down to zero.  Once the ski is tipped, it doesn't really care that much what base bevel you have; it only cares how acute the angle is.  When the ski is flat it will care what base bevel you have on those rare occasions when you want to slide an edge and zero base bevel is not what you want for that.  Also when running straight, opposing edges will be fighting each other, and the skis will run faster with more base bevel.

x2 

0 degree base bevel is something you probably dont want to mess with, I doubt WC SL racers run 0.
post #4 of 22
 0 degree base level is not nice to ski, 0,5 is allready race, 1,0 is comfort
post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks a lot! So I'll try the 4 degree side bevel and see what happens...
post #6 of 22
Its crazy to advise 0.0 base bevel.  That is ridiculous.   0.5 base, 3 edge is standard slalom racing, 1.0 base, 3 edge is standard GS racing.  You don't need more than a 3 degree edge bevel to get all the hook up you need.

Radial tuning = 0.50 base bevel under the boot and 0.75 to 1.0 base bevel on the rest of the ski, front and rear, is being used for slalom and GS.  It allows for easier turn initiation (don't need too be as precise) and you still get the quickness and edge hold of 0.5 under foot.

If the above doesn't work for you I'm afraid it's the pilot, not the skis!  :)
post #7 of 22
Are you sure they are sharp?  Some people's "sharp" is different than other people's "sharp".
post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 
..double post...
Edited by kominak - 1/17/10 at 3:23am
post #9 of 22
Thread Starter 
...double post...
Edited by kominak - 1/17/10 at 3:24am
post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
...double post...
Edited by kominak - 1/17/10 at 3:24am
post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basement Ski Tech View Post

If the above doesn't work for you I'm afraid it's the pilot, not the skis!  :)
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of :) But I'm working on this one!
Skis are GS, but they're a little shorter so they feel like somewhere between SL and GS - 0.5/3 degree tuning sounds reasonable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Are you sure they are sharp?  Some people's "sharp" is different than other people's "sharp".

 

Yes, that could be a problem, too.
I actually enjoyed the skis quite a lot, but people around here seems to always mention that 'grabby' feeling and that skis are hard to turn at 0.5/3 degrees. Well, the skis felt safe even at high speed and quick edge-to-edge switches were easy to do. Only on the hardest snow on steep terrain they let go a little. Maybe I was expecting too much - some magical hold on ice or something :)
I'm planning to buy a kit for hand tuning my edges, btw., to be really sure they are sharp, I just wanted to establish the right bevel angles before I spent money on file guides.  

Thanks once again for all the insights!
post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 
...double post...
Edited by kominak - 1/17/10 at 3:25am
post #13 of 22
Skis are not hard to turn at 0.5/3; skis are hard to push or twist out of their properly set turning path at 0.5/3.

No matter how sharp and acute the edges are, you still have to obey the laws of physics.
post #14 of 22
Thread Starter 
I see - it makes more sense now. Thanks for clarification.
post #15 of 22
By the way not easy to find a file guide for a 0,75 degree base bevel, 0,5 1,0 1,5 those are easy to find. Even the adjustable base bevel guides are fixed on these (afaik there is only 1 which can do the 0,75).

Start with a basic Edge sharpening/tuning kit, to maintain them daily and you will feel the difference.
post #16 of 22
Sun Valley Ski Tools makes an accurate .7 degree base bevel guide. standard tool in the box of any good ski tech in north america.

fwiw, as a first time tuner, you should not be messing around with your base edge angles. get them set by a reliable shop, with either a good tech and good hand tools, or a good tech and a good machine.

once your base edge is set, all you will need to do is maintain the side edge sharpness of finish and the side edge angle.

jim
post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 
This  is how I wanted to do it:
before the start of the season let the shop do a complete setup of the skis. During the season after every 1-3days of skiing, depending on snow conditions, I'll do the waxing myself and also touch-up the edges. I've been doing the waxing through the last season with good success and this is how I plan to do the sharpening:

1. remove hardened spots with rough stone
2. sharpen side edge with 2nd cut file, if there's a lot of damage, otherwise step 3
3. sharpen side edge with medium diamond
5. polish with ceramic stone (also do a 1-2  passes on base edge)

No change of the bevel angles, just maintenance...
post #18 of 22
nothing wrong with that approach, and if i had a reliable ski shop overhere it would be mine too.
by the way dont forget the special lube there is for sharpening or with diamonds just water, makes life easier.

Found a couple of bevel guides in germany in 0,7 assuming they fit my moonflex files i will order those for next season. Mine is just 1,5week away to start... 200cm of snow jummmmmyy http://www.snowplaza.nl/landinfo_italie-skidorpen-mezzana_marilleva-weer_sneeuwhoogte
post #19 of 22
I had my skis ground at the beginning of this season.  I had to file the bottoms a bit to get them flat but left the base of the edges at 0 degrees and filed the sides to 2 degrees.  They ski fine.  No hooking or grabbing or any other nasty stuff. 

If your boot cuffs are not adjusted properly or you otherwise are over canted so you are too much on your inside edges your skis will seem hooky or grabby.  Beveling the base of the edges to 1 degree is not the best way to solve this problem. 
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by crudmeister View Post

I had my skis ground at the beginning of this season.  I had to file the bottoms a bit to get them flat but left the base of the edges at 0 degrees and filed the sides to 2 degrees.  They ski fine.  No hooking or grabbing or any other nasty stuff. 

If your boot cuffs are not adjusted properly or you otherwise are over canted so you are too much on your inside edges your skis will seem hooky or grabby.  Beveling the base of the edges to 1 degree is not the best way to solve this problem. 
 

Just becuase they were stoneground does not mean they are at 0 degrees. did you look at the base edge with a true bar and verify that absolutely no light is coming under the bar over the edges when placed on the base and edges. Also bases do not need to be flat. Some concavity is normal, as long as the base is flat 10-15mm in from each edge ths ski will ski fine.

I am more curious about the base edge then the base it self. Also if in fact you base was left base high, there is a good chance your base edges still had base bevel on them.

Keep in mind when a true bar is placed to match a 1 degree base edge bevel that is only a 1 mm gap under the bar at 60mm across the ski from the measured edge.

Does not sound like a 0 to me. A true 1 degree base bevel is an excellent bevel for the majority of skiers. 0 degrees on a shaped skis would exhibit some very undesirable characterisitics, like not wanting to drift or slide sideways at all, either on edge or off edge, absolutley no foregiveness whatsoever and certainly difficult to use progressive edge pressure.
Edited by Atomicman - 1/19/10 at 10:18am
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by crudmeister View Post

I had my skis ground at the beginning of this season.  I had to file the bottoms a bit to get them flat but left the base of the edges at 0 degrees and filed the sides to 2 degrees.  They ski fine.  No hooking or grabbing or any other nasty stuff. 

If your boot cuffs are not adjusted properly or you otherwise are over canted so you are too much on your inside edges your skis will seem hooky or grabby.  Beveling the base of the edges to 1 degree is not the best way to solve this problem. 
 

Isn't the point of a base grind to get the bottoms flat? Why would you have to file the bottoms a bit to get them flat after having them ground unless the grind was done poorly?
post #22 of 22
Yes, it is one of the points of grinding to get the base flat.  But the grinder didn't so I had to finish the job.  It wasn't much but I am fussy. 
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