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Carving and tracks - how do you really shape up, go back and look at the trax

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Some people say that skiing is a kinetic chain that starts at the feet and works its way up. I like to think of it as even more basic than that, the trax left in the snow.

I was attending my kids ski training and was on a pair of jr atomic 155 racing skis. I had no ski poles. Even though it was crowded I got one side of the hill all for my self. I carved down and took off my skis and walked back up filming with my phone the trax left in the snow. I was cranking out carved turns. I worked with my knees primarily pointing them actively into the turn. Here is the blue print:


What do you guys think?

So then yesterday I made our club course and was able to ski through it a couple of times. Then I came to think that maybe I could film my trax in the course as well and grabbed my phone and off I whent. Here is what my trax looked like in the SL course:


Any comment much appreciated.

Never saw this kind of study before so Im very interesting in hearing your thaughts. What can you seasoned experts read from the blue print?

EDIT: Some times you gotto do it all by your selfe part 2

post #2 of 28
I'm not sure but it looks like the left ski (right track in the first clip) shows a couple skidded moments where the two tracks gets wider. No biggie but it does suggest the tip took a slightly tighter line than the rest of the ski. Are you right footed? 
post #3 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



What do you guys think?


Never saw this kind of study before...


Well…frankly…there is a reason…they’d throw you off any mountain I ski at for odd behavior and undue risk  

[…but an interesting view none the less]

post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I'm not sure but it looks like the left ski (right track in the first clip) shows a couple skidded moments where the two tracks gets wider. No biggie but it does suggest the tip took a slightly tighter line than the rest of the ski. Are you right footed? 

I dont think my left outside ski in the turns to the right is skidding. Can you point to a time frame in the clip. I think what you see is that the snow is soft. There was deffinetly better grip turning right. Shape of hill maybe...
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post

Well…frankly…there is a reason…they’d throw you off any mountain I ski at for odd behavior and undue risk  
[…but an interesting view none the less]


 

Im used to being a bit of an oddball but thats a small price to pay.
post #6 of 28
I also noted that the inside ski on right-footed turns (i.e. the left ski) slides a bit. That might have happened in the on-course tracks both ways, but I could hardly see the tracks there.

I don't think this is actually that big an issue, as the inside ski isn't really weighted anyway. At least in my experience, it's sometimes a symptom of too much tip lead / countered body position. Anyway, thinking about standing squarer to the skis and pulling back the inside tip makes it go away.
post #7 of 28

Just making sure I've got the direction right -- in the first clip, you're looking uphill, so the left track is your right ski, correct?

I notice that most of your right ski turns have the left (inside) ski sort of sliding a bit.  This shows that the outside ski is dominating, which is a good result in a racing context.

Left ski turns show a bit of a deeper track on the outside ski, but not as dominant.  I would be watching for some slipping out on left ski turns in the gates, and be telling you to stand on the outside ski, meaning getting all your weight on the outside ski.

I pay a lot of attention to tracks when I'm coaching my athletes, because they show the result of what was put into the turn.  I look for my own tracks as well when I can set a few under the chair and watch them on the way up before they are skied over.

post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post

I also noted that the inside ski on right-footed turns (i.e. the left ski) slides a bit. That might have happened in the on-course tracks both ways, but I could hardly see the tracks there.

I don't think this is actually that big an issue, as the inside ski isn't really weighted anyway. At least in my experience, it's sometimes a symptom of too much tip lead / countered body position. Anyway, thinking about standing squarer to the skis and pulling back the inside tip makes it go away.

In the free skiing clip my inside left ski on my right turns skid. Outside ski carves. On my left turns both skis carve. Jasp, would this indicate Im right footed which I am? Can a bootfitter maybe see something about my alignment from the trax? 

Interesting thing IMO is that in the gates you can hardly see my inside ski carve anywhere. Unlike the left turns outside the course. Im convinced that there must be some valuable information found out of this study to help boost my skiing. On a side note, I checked a wc skiers trax on a practise course and her inside ski was also carving cleanly but obviously her outside ski was.
post #9 of 28
It looks like either you have a weak inside right half [leg] OR your right leg alignment is still soft... or both. Cool analysis though. I look at my tracks a lot. I actually did two runs under the lift today so I could do this exact thing.
post #10 of 28
I'm confused, the inside ski in a left turn is the left ski. In the video you are walking uphill so it would be just as if I were looking uphill as you ski towards me. The inside ski on your left turn is your left foot and when the two tracks diverge the left ski (right track in the video) shows the tip turning a tighter turn than the rest of the ski. Since it's the inside ski this isn't a big thing but could be cleaner if you didn't steer that ski as much.
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I'm confused, the inside ski in a left turn is the left ski. In the video you are walking uphill so it would be just as if I were looking uphill as you ski towards me. The inside ski on your left turn is your left foot and when the two tracks diverge the left ski (right track in the video) shows the tip turning a tighter turn than the rest of the ski. Since it's the inside ski this isn't a big thing but could be cleaner if you didn't steer that ski as much.
Sorry, my fault. You are right. Turning left my inside ski is my left ski and that is the one skidding. Im just curious to why consequtively my inside ski is skidding on my left turns but not on my right!

And why I am more outside ski oriented when skiing in the gates?
post #12 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

It looks like either you have a weak inside right half [leg] OR your right leg alignment is still soft... or both. Cool analysis though. I look at my tracks a lot. I actually did two runs under the lift today so I could do this exact thing.
 

Yeah, some dont think its important but I think tells more about your skiing that normal video does. At least its a way of "dooing it all by yourself" kind of coaching. Anyway, why do you think my inside right half is weak and what do you suggest I do about it? Remember we look at tracks only here. Why do you think my alignment is soft on my "right" leg? What do you base this statement on? Right or left turns? I backed off the alignment to 1 deg from 1,5 on both legs this year. The reason was that in GS my canting was way too aggressive.
post #13 of 28
Thread Starter 
For reference, here is a wc skiers sl traxs:

post #14 of 28
Don't want to rain on your parade but.....you have a weak inside ski, more so on one side like others have said. However, your transitions are very good. Quick and clean. Can you carve on just your inside ski?  If not then you are in the backseat on your inside and maybe other issues. Seeing you ski would provide better feedback.
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
slider, thanks for your input. So what do you reccommend I do to make my inside half stronger? The ide here is not to look at my skiing but at my tracks and try to figure out what I do right and wrong read from the blue print in the snow.
post #16 of 28
Hi tdk6,
If the problem is technique and not a physical issue like canting,ect. then work on moving your Hip over your inside foot/ski or pulling your foot back under your Hip. Get on an easy slope and try to carve on your inside ski only. Do not straighten your inside leg but keep it bent and get that Hip over the top of your foot. It takes alot of strength and balance. While your free skiing start your turns on your inside ski as a drill. Yes you will fall but soon you will learn to manipulate that inside edge as needed in the turn. See the diffence between the 2 inside ski tracks. I hope this helps in some small way and Good Luck on your quest for improvement.

post #17 of 28
Pull the foot back? Stay squarer to the skis? Think about the objective for minute. Keeping the hip and the foot vertically aligned as nears as possible suggests otherwise. Here's why...
As the leg flexes the knee moves forward. The top of the tibia is part of that joint so the entire tibia moves forward as well. Flexing the ankle could keep the ankle and foot under the hip but the limited RoM imposed by the ski boot limits this option. So the boot moves forward once we use up the limited ankle flex available. Leaving us with only one option. Moving the inside hip forward to keep the hip and ankle as vertically aligned as possible. We can cheat a little by raising the inside hip up which provides a little more vertical room so the leg doesn't need to flex quite as much but even there is only a small range of motion available. How do we expand the RoM of the leg after using up this move? Abduction of the inside knee can provide an increased RoM but it involves putting the knee and leg into a relatively weak position. So that leg's weight bearing capacity is reduced. Since we're not trying to put much weight on that ski anyway this works well. (balancing on the outside ski is another objective) Notice also that like was mentioned in another thread, the leg moving this way keeps the pressure fairly equal along the edge. The end product is the inside ski leaving a cleaner track and the outside ski doing the majority of the weight bearing chores.
post #18 of 28
Quote:

Pull the foot back? Stay squarer to the skis?


I followed almost none of this post. What I suggested works.

One problem with the new software on this site is that using the "All New Posts" view sometimes leads one into fora one doesn't really want to be in.
post #19 of 28

I know the move you described very well and it only works withing the narrow RoM of the boot's flex. Outside of that range it doesn't.

post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post


Anyway, why do you think my inside right half is weak and what do you suggest I do about it? Remember we look at tracks only here. Why do you think my alignment is soft on my "right" leg? What do you base this statement on? Right or left turns? I backed off the alignment to 1 deg from 1,5 on both legs this year. The reason was that in GS my canting was way too aggressive.

Whichever turn had the "drifting" inside ski is the side that is likely weak. I wasn't sure if you filmed walking back up the hill or walking down the hill (I assumed you were going down so that is why I suggested it was your right side, but if you were walking back up the hill it would be your left side). As for fixes I'd do a lot of lateral flexibility with the aim of raising (or leveling if you prefer) the inside hip. It is not enough to simply drop the outside hip. As you know - when creating angles it is key to ensure that you are moving the inside half (foot, leg, hip, body, arm) up and out of the way.

As for your alignment - every video and picture I've ever seen of you had extremely soft alignment and tracks like you demonstrated are a tell-tale sign of soft alignment. If I were you, I'd bee looking at 2 - 3 degrees of boot sole canting. The 1.5 you had was probably a good start, but felt too aggressive for other technique-based reasons... but that is another conversation. The tracks analysis is what this thread is about.
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Whichever turn had the "drifting" inside ski is the side that is likely weak. I wasn't sure if you filmed walking back up the hill or walking down the hill (I assumed you were going down so that is why I suggested it was your right side, but if you were walking back up the hill it would be your left side). As for fixes I'd do a lot of lateral flexibility with the aim of raising (or leveling if you prefer) the inside hip. It is not enough to simply drop the outside hip. As you know - when creating angles it is key to ensure that you are moving the inside half (foot, leg, hip, body, arm) up and out of the way.

As for your alignment - every video and picture I've ever seen of you had extremely soft alignment and tracks like you demonstrated are a tell-tale sign of soft alignment. If I were you, I'd bee looking at 2 - 3 degrees of boot sole canting. The 1.5 you had was probably a good start, but felt too aggressive for other technique-based reasons... but that is another conversation. The tracks analysis is what this thread is about.

 

Thanks Greg, I appreciate your imput very much. Yes, Im very much right handed and probably also right footed although I ride my scateboard, snowboard, surfboard and waterski with my left foot back.

Yes, this thread is all about the tracks left behind. I will switch back to 1,5 canting on my boots. Maybe my new less turny and stiffer GS skis will solve some of my problems on icy prepared courses. Note that the free skiing tracks in the opeing post was made with a pair of soft short jr SL skis while the in the course I was on my new fullscale SL Magnesiums.

I will pay more attention to my inside half this upcomming week.
post #22 of 28
TDK6,
Here are links to a couple of threads that may interest you & fit with this topic.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/77188/inside-half


http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/79391/parallel-tracks

JF
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post



I followed almost none of this post. What I suggested works.

One problem with the new software on this site is that using the "All New Posts" view sometimes leads one into fora one doesn't really want to be in.


Yep.
post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
Tried 1.5 canting today but it was too much. Snow was grabby, hard and sticky due to cold weather but way too much grip. Im going back to 1 deg for wednesday when we race. With too much canting the skis hook up too early IMO. Any clues?
post #25 of 28
The tracks seem to show a divergent left ski in turns to the left. This would indicate an ‘over edged’ condition on the right ski.  
post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your input Ray. Can you explain a bit more clearly. You are looking at the two last left turns (first ones as I walk back up) in the freeskiing clip I assume. And you are noting that my left ski is skidding not carving. Yes, thats what Im puzzled about. Was that a coincident, bad technique or bad alignment. If I interpet what you are saying I should try more canting on my left foot and less at my right? How much?

Im now back to 1 deg on both boots. Lets see how it works. We have very cold grabby conditions at the moment.
post #27 of 28

I found this forum a couple of days ago. A lot of really good information and expertise can be found here. Lots of interesting discussions.

 

This particular subject that JASP touches upon is something that I have thought a great deal about without really getting a solid understanding.

I have been experimenting a lot with how the hip should be rotated. I think most agree that when entering a turn the legs should extend and the hip should be rotated inwards in order to align feet and improve edging. However, when reaching the fall-line and after, and when the edging/inclination is very aggressive, basically when the hip is almost touching the ground. Then I find it very difficult to rotate/twist the inner hip back and I feel that it is easier to rotate the inner hip slightly forward. If I understand JASP correctly this is a natural movement, and his explainaing of the body physics is very insightful.
The hip rotation does however cause a wider separation of the feet, front and back. This would lead to poorer balance if the outer ski slips/skids.

The fellow coaches in my club all say that the hip should always be rotated inwards, but I am not 100% convinced.

I have looked at a lot of WC photos and I think I see some different rotations, but it is difficult to judge just from a still without knowing what dynamics are involved.

Another point is that when the inner leg is extremely flexed , i.e. more than 90 degrees compared to the surface, the knee actually starts to go backwards again. It seems that many WC racers more or less sit on the foot in some circumstances, and in this case the foot is not too far from directly under the CoM. This also means that with greater separation between the skis it is possible to have feet more aligned if edging is extreme.

Does anyone have more insight into hip rotation when edging is very aggressive?

(Sorry for any language confusion, English is not my native tounge)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

...snip
As the leg flexes the knee moves forward. The top of the tibia is part of that joint so the entire tibia moves forward as well. Flexing the ankle could keep the ankle and foot under the hip but the limited RoM imposed by the ski boot limits this option. So the boot moves forward once we use up the limited ankle flex available. Leaving us with only one option. Moving the inside hip forward to keep the hip and ankle as vertically aligned as possible....
---
post #28 of 28

The following pictures illustrate what I mean somewhat:

In the following sequence Gruber has quite an aggressive edging, his hip seems to be rotated inwards, and alignement of feet is very good.

http://youcanski.com/gallery/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/seq_gruber_4605-4608_web.jpg

In the following sequence Maier seem to have a lot more outward hip rotation. Feet are not as aligned. He actually has the outside knee behind the inner boot! He has the balance more aft at the exit.

http://youcanski.com/gallery/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/mayer_sequence.jpg

Does Gruber have more "modern" technique?

 

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