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Why is snowboarding at some resorts not allowed? - Page 2

post #31 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by prickly View Post

I'd rather not have snowboarders around. If my hill banned them, that would be fine with me.
 
I've skied a lot at Alta and MRG and enjoy not having boarders around. I fear their blindspot, and feel that many of them scrape off snow due to poor technique or over-traverse in powder. Having a little kid who skis has only made me more wary.

I ski regularly with a number of competent snowboarders and I'd miss their company, but being rid of the others would outweigh that.

I'm also wary of bad skiers and any skier who goes too fast. I'd ban them too if I could.

Hell, I'd ban most of you. I'd have the hill to myself...


 

post #32 of 105
Boarders come in two species: those that scrape all the snow off the steeps, and those that cut extra deep grooves across the hill. 

They ruin the tracks under the t-bar.

They generally don't have enough money to be worth fleecing.  (neither do ski bums, but they're doing their best to ban them too).
post #33 of 105
Thanks for clearing that up for me. NOW I UNDERSTAND!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13 View Post

I think to protest this obvious discrimination of their rights, boarders at all the other resorts should band together and sit in the middle of the trails, at the bottom of the lift ramps, and in the lift lanes.
post #34 of 105
First, MRG is on National Forest land.  The reason boarders are not allowed at this time is the lift.  The single chair is deemed, by management, to not be safe for snow board use.  So safety is a valid reason to dis-allow.  They do not allow snow machines either.

Mad River is a Co-op and the shareholders made a decision to not allow snowboarders.  They do have a policy that offers free ski rentals to any boarder who shows up to board.  Their policy is not a statement of disdain, and they do not dislike snowboarders.

But we all know that there is more to it than that.  Mad River is a historic skiers mountain.  It's natural snow is less durable than man made.  Many skiers believe that the snowboard can do much more damage to snow cover with their tendency to slide.  They change the lines and MRG skiers don't want that.  Maybe this is a matter of opinion, but it is strongly held by good skiers in Vt.  It is true that skilled boarders don't slide sideways down the hill, but even good boarders often slide into tight difficult situations.

There is more!  Betsy the previous owner, a strong willed woman, originally set the policy prior to Co-op ownership.  She had a "run-in" with some rude boarders back in the day when snowboarders were pirates.  She simply said - no more snowboarders.  That's where it started for MRG.

I am strongly in favor of the ban.  I believe that the snowboard would substantially change the skiing there.

I also believe that the sport played an important role in keeping ski areas afloat during the 90s.  Mad River is missing out on important revenue due to the ban.
post #35 of 105
As far as the people who ski vs the people who board, I have found that people are people and now that the sport is established kids are kids.  There are good kids and there are pains in the ass kids (not necessarily bad).  I find young people to be of a very high quality these days.  I see boarders who love the wilderness and take the sport seriously and I really like to see that.

Kids tend to be high energy and act like a dog that just got off the leash.  Adults don't like bad behavior and when we see it we often blame boarding since so many kids are trying the sport.  It's not the snowboarding, it's the fact that they are kids.
post #36 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

As far as the people who ski vs the people who board, I have found that people are people and now that the sport is established kids are kids.  There are good kids and there are pains in the ass kids (not necessarily bad).  I find young people to be of a very high quality these days.  I see boarders who love the wilderness and take the sport seriously and I really like to see that.

Kids tend to be high energy and act like a dog that just got off the leash.  Adults don't like bad behavior and when we see it we often blame boarding since so many kids are trying the sport.  It's not the snowboarding, it's the fact that they are kids.

word.

Acutally I think I see alot more out of control kids on skis than on a board. My local hill is like 50/50 (the 50% skiers is acutlaly 70% alpine 30% tele) and I never have a problem with boarders. The majority of newbie boarders stay in the park or on the groomed runs. You don't see them in the bumps or off piste except the ones who know how to turn pretty good.  There are a couple of traverse to areas that hold nice pow. At lone pine the majority of boarders don't use the traverse, they boot pack the ridge and then drop in from ~50' up the hill. On "the backside" most boarders skip the traverse back in bounds and just drop to the road and hitch back.

If you like riding lifts, then the more pople out there throwing money in the pot the better. Somebody has to pay the bills. Maybe thats why DV's tickets are so spendy and the price at alta keeps nudging up there faster every year.
Edited by tromano - 1/13/10 at 8:08am
post #37 of 105
I would like to see the original poster back to make a comment.  Or did you just light a match and stand back to watch the flames?
post #38 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post




word.

Acutally I think I see alot more out of control kids on skis than on a board. My local hill is like 50/50 (the 50% skiers is acutlaly 70% alpine 30% tele) and I never have a problem with boarders. The majority of newbie boarders stay in the park or on the groomed runs. You don't see them in the bumps or off piste except the ones who know how to turn pretty good.  There are a couple of traverse to areas that hold nice pow. At lone pine the majority of boarders don't use the traverse, they boot pack the ridge and then drop in from ~50' up the hill. On "the backside" most boarders skip the traverse back in bounds and just drop to the road and hitch back.

If you like riding lifts, then the more pople out there throwing money in the pot the better. Somebody has to pay the bills. Maybe thats why DV's tickets are so spendy and the price at alta keeps nudging up there faster every year.

Not sure why you quoted me to these points.  I never mentioned out of control kids.  I never have a problem with boarders either.

I will say, from my observations only, that boarders are able to move to skiing the harder terrain - blues - much sooner than skiers.  A few turns here and there and away they go.  Boarders don't seem as attracted to bumps as skiers, as a rule.

EDIT:  I guess you didn't reference me.
post #39 of 105
 The protests have started, why did you ever give them this idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13 View Post

I think to protest this obvious discrimination of their rights, boarders at all the other resorts should band together and sit in the middle of the trails, at the bottom of the lift ramps, and in the lift lanes.
post #40 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

I will say, from my observations only, that boarders are able to move to skiing the harder terrain - blues - much sooner than skiers.  A few turns here and there and away they go.  Boarders don't seem as attracted to bumps as skiers, as a rule.

I do notice this about boarders, and maybe chalk this up to youthful recklessness, but they seem to get in on terrain over their heads a lot more than skiers, which results in the falling leaf, or fall line scrape type of descent, which of course makes boilerplate ice in a hurry. I'm not saying a skier snowplowing or side-slipping the whole way doesn't do the same thing, just that you don't see it nearly as often.

I don't buy the blind spot argument, or it's at least that it makes a big difference. The argument assumes a human neck doesn't swivel, and that the toe carve happens continuously. In reality, all snowboarders I know keep their heads pointed down the fall line as they carve back and forth, just like skiers. I've seen plenty of skiers crash into each other from tunnel vision or while admiring their turns, etc. Most collisions happen because people aren't paying attention, or are out of control, not because of some anatomical blind spot.

I dunno, there are some days where I wish there weren't snowboarders, but usually it's because of a few d-bags that give everyone a bad name. Then a snowboarder will do something nice like pick up my stuff after a yardsale :D, and I realize it's the person, not the equipment they ride on.
Edited by reshp1 - 1/13/10 at 9:17am
post #41 of 105
I shed a tear everytime I see a border sliding sideways down the entire trail.  Which happens alot in VT.  I don't think MRG would be able to support newby snow borders.  There is already alot of blue ice there to begin with.
post #42 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by reshp1 View Post




I do notice this about boarders, and maybe chalk this up to youthful recklessness, but they seem to get in on terrain over their heads a lot more than skiers, which results in the falling leaf, or falling scrape type of descent, which of course makes boilerplate ice in a hurry. I'm not saying a skier snowplowing or side-slipping the whole way doesn't do the same thing, just that you don't see it nearly as often.

I don't buy the blind spot argument, or it's at least that it makes a big difference. The argument assumes a human neck doesn't swivel, and that the toe carve happens continuously. In reality, all snowboarders I know keep their heads pointed down the fall line as they carve back and forth, just like skiers. I've seen plenty of skiers crash into each other from tunnel vision or while admiring their turns, etc. Most collisions happen because people aren't paying attention, or are out of control, not because of some anatomical blind spot.

I dunno, there are some days where I wish there weren't snowboarders, but usually it's because of a few d-bags that give everyone a bad name. Then a snowboarder will do something nice like pick up my stuff after a yardsale :D, and I realize it's the person, not the equipment they ride on.

 


I will agree with you on that. I think it is due to a couple of things. often times you will see a lot of snowboarders riding together. And taking ther less experienced buddies up the mountain. It's easier to get into financially so there are a lot of people who aren't REAL serious about snowriding. But it's the cool thing to do a couple times a year. This leads to the more experienced ridings dragging their friends up to places that they just shouldn't be. I'll even admit to being guilty of dragging my girlfriend up to runs that she's not really capable of riding properly.
You probably don't see this much in skiing because the learning curves are vastly different. Side slipping is a lot more uncomfortable on steep terrain than going heel side on a snowboard. Falling on ski's has more consequences. Injuries are way more likely.
Just some thoughts.
post #43 of 105
Skiers have much to be grateful about when it comes to snowboarding.

Without Snowboarding, 1)  Skiers would still be riding 1980's style narrow skis. Some still do.
               
                                   2) Skiers would still be dressing like dorks. Some still do.

That said, I have met many skiers who seem to be very nice. As an older rider, I often get questioned by skiing parents about why I ride and that they have kids who want to snowboard and think skiing is uncool. Someday there will be kids that think that boarding is uncool and would prefer skiing. It all goes around in circles. At this point in time, however, snowboarding has the cool factor over skiing. Even though skiers go bigger in the halfpipe, snowboarding gets the prime time coverage. Just check the X-Games and the upcoming Olympics. You'll see what I mean.


Regards

RB
post #44 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyBobby View Post


Skiers have much to be grateful about when it comes to snowboarding.

Someday there will be kids that think that boarding is uncool and would prefer skiing. It all goes around in circles. At this point in time, however, snowboarding has the cool factor over skiing.

Hate to break it to you, but it has already happened. Even at Baker, the 'mecca' of snowboarding, more kids are putting on skis now.
post #45 of 105
What! Already! See, I knew it would happen at some point.

At the end of the day, we all just want to enjoy the snow and the mountains and each other. No matter what your choice of equipment is, we should realize that we are very lucky to spend some time in a beautiful environment and that we really don't have too much to gripe about.

RB
post #46 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyBobby View Post

What! Already! See, I knew it would happen at some point.

At the end of the day, we all just want to enjoy the snow and the mountains and each other. No matter what your choice of equipment is, we should realize that we are very lucky to spend some time in a beautiful environment and that we really don't have too much to gripe about.

RB

No we don't.  I think we all need to get really upset about boarders cutting in front of us on traverses. 

turn sarcasm button to 11 please.
post #47 of 105
Dear Valley
Mad River Glen
Alta

These are the best known areas that don't allow snowboarders.  The only reason I read in any of the comments that made any sense is "because they can".  Why is another question and depending on who you ask you could get a very emotional answer. 
post #48 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob4snow View Post

Dear Valley
Mad River Glen
Alta

These are the best known areas that don't allow snowboarders.  The only reason I read in any of the comments that made any sense is "because they can".  Why is another question and depending on who you ask you could get a very emotional answer. 


Cypress Point, Augusta National, and the Tradition all have rules that say no women can enter the clubhouse or be members, is this wrong, or extremely American?  PERSONALLY, I'd say these are all businesses that have the right to do whatever they damn well please.  Augusta National doesn't allow black members.  That's pushing it for me, but I really do feel like it is okay in America.  There are communities in Palm Desert that are for gays only.  I can't join a national black fraternity, nor could I attend gatherings at a near by chabaad.  While I don't exactly agree with all of these ideals, one thing I do think, is that because we are in America, you can do whatever you want, and that's fine with me.  I say hoooray to anyone that has the balls to do these types of things anymore, simply because this is the land of the free.  The only thing that I would say should debunk all of this is that the slopes are on public land, so that is wrong, but that's not what I am talking about.

flame away...
this is not a troll.  I promise you.
post #49 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob4snow View Post

Dear Valley
Mad River Glen
Alta

These are the best known areas that don't allow snowboarders.  The only reason I read in any of the comments that made any sense is "because they can".  Why is another question and depending on who you ask you could get a very emotional answer. 

These are the only areas that don't allow snowboarding.  Taos started allowing them a year or two ago, and Perfect North Slopes gave up on the snowboard ban a decade ago.  These five are the only holdouts in recent memory.

MRG doesn't allow them for basically historical reasons, and since it's a co-op it would require a vote of the members to allow snowboarding at the resort.  Since the members are members because they like the hill as it is, this may not change any time soon.

For DV and Alta, there are 10 ski areas within about an hour of SLC and they have to do something to distinguish themselves.  Not allowing snowboarding attracts a certain clientelle and there's enough of them to make these two hills economically viable.

As for why some skiers prefer a hill without snowboarding, well, try it sometime and you'll see.  It is better.  Of course, it's even better without the other skiers too.
Edited by Walt - 1/13/10 at 2:13pm
post #50 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post

Cypress Point, Augusta National, and the Tradition all have rules that say no women can enter the clubhouse or be members, is this wrong, or extremely American?


Despite much whining to the contrary, the ban on snowboarding has nothing whatsoever to do with gender or racial discrimination.  And snowboarders who try to make that analogy should be ashamed of themselves for trivializing a serious issue.

Here's how it works:
You're not allowed play golf on a soccer  field. You're not allowed play soccer on a golf course.  But golfers are not banned from the soccer field and people who play soccer are not banned from the golf course.  You just have to behave according to the rules at the venue.  That's not discrimination.

Likewise, Alta does not ban snowboarders any more than they ban snowmobilers or cyclists.  But they don't allow you to ride your bike, or your snowmobile, or your snowboard on the hill.  It's reserved for skiing.
post #51 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post





Despite much whining to the contrary, the ban on snowboarding has nothing whatsoever to do with gender or racial discrimination.  And snowboarders who try to make that analogy should be ashamed of themselves for trivializing a serious issue.

Here's how it works:
You're not allowed play golf on a soccer  field. You're not allowed play soccer on a golf course.  But golfers are not banned from the soccer field and people who play soccer are not banned from the golf course.  You just have to behave according to the rules at the venue.  That's not discrimination.

Likewise, Alta does not ban snowboarders any more than they ban snowmobilers or cyclists.  But they don't allow you to ride your bike, or your snowmobile, or your snowboard on the hill.  It's reserved for skiing.

 


well said
public land, i can't ride my dirt bike on the mall in dc
post #52 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post





Despite much whining to the contrary, the ban on snowboarding has nothing whatsoever to do with gender or racial discrimination.  And snowboarders who try to make that analogy should be ashamed of themselves for trivializing a serious issue.

Here's how it works:
You're not allowed play golf on a soccer  field. You're not allowed play soccer on a golf course.  But golfers are not banned from the soccer field and people who play soccer are not banned from the golf course.  You just have to behave according to the rules at the venue.  That's not discrimination.

Likewise, Alta does not ban snowboarders any more than they ban snowmobilers or cyclists.  But they don't allow you to ride your bike, or your snowmobile, or your snowboard on the hill.  It's reserved for skiing.

 

So what is worse to you, saying you can not discriminate or saying you can not be free to do/organize as you please?
That is a good point.  A snowboarder can travel Alta, just not on a snowboard. 
This is sticky to me and very difficult to explain my feelings towards it, as I see discrimination as utterly wrong, but in my opinion, if a Jewish/Mormon/Black/Hispanic/White/Gay whatever, starts a business, and only wants to hire people of his own "kind" as a way of looking out for and trying to help those people, I do not see a problem with this.  It's their own G D right as Americans. 
post #53 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

Are there any "ski" areas that ONLY allow snowboarding?

Now that would be a great idea
 

  Well skiers were originally not allowed to ski in terrain parks. Terrain parks where "Snowboard only" or "Snowboard parks" and for good reasons...
post #54 of 105

 Yep, years ago when I skied in Utah, an asterisk in the visitor's guide, under night skiing, for Wolf Mountain said "snowboard only", which confused me for a while until I realized the only lighted terrain was a halfpipe which in those days were snowboard only day or night at most ski areas that had half pipes. It was funny though to see 'snowboard only' in the brochure at a time when the other two areas in the Park City vicinity were both skier only. 
post #55 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post

So what is worse to you, saying you can not discriminate or saying you can not be free to do/organize as you please?
That is a good point.  A snowboarder can travel Alta, just not on a snowboard. 
This is sticky to me and very difficult to explain my feelings towards it, as I see discrimination as utterly wrong, but in my opinion, if a Jewish/Mormon/Black/Hispanic/White/Gay whatever, starts a business, and only wants to hire people of his own "kind" as a way of looking out for and trying to help those people, I do not see a problem with this.  It's their own G D right as Americans. 

I'm not on either side of this debate, but this is a ridiculous argument the mere existence of which trivializes the plight of minorities that are still subject to prejudice (often subtle) even this very day.

The difference is that being of a certain race/creed/orientation is something a person cannot alter.  In addition, it is because of racial/religious/sexual prejudice (i.e. the prejudicial association of an individual of said group with negative stereotypes or unfounded "inherent differences") that makes it unfair.

In contrast, being a snowboarder vs. skier IS something one can and does alter all the time.  In addition, snowboarders and skiers indeed do slightly different things.  And it is also to the point that one set of activities can cause problems for another (it works both ways, BTW).

So the correct analogy is that a golf course can ban croquet players.  Nobody cares or judges what you like or do elsewhere, but here is for a certain activity.
Edited by DtEW - 1/13/10 at 3:29pm
post #56 of 105
I am surprised that no one mentioned how much snow 'inexperienced' boarders displace and with the high snow areas, wouldn't avalanche be a concern?
post #57 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by prickly View Post

I'd rather not have snowboarders around. If my hill banned them, that would be fine with me.
 
I've skied a lot at Alta and MRG and enjoy not having boarders around. I fear their blindspot, and feel that many of them scrape off snow due to poor technique or over-traverse in powder. Having a little kid who skis has only made me more wary.

I ski regularly with a number of competent snowboarders and I'd miss their company, but being rid of the others would outweigh that.

I'm also wary of bad skiers and any skier who goes too fast. I'd ban them too if I could.

Hell, I'd ban most of you. I'd have the hill to myself...



 
 

    I know you didn't say this in your post but if you think it, not all boarders are these bratty teenagers who don't know what the heck they are doing. (Of course I'm a bratty teenage skier but that is beside the point)  The point is that most the riders I have skied with I really cool and courteous. Like someone said on this thread earlier we are all out there just too have fun, no matter if it is on one plank or two. The thing is its those few jerks out there that make a bad name for everyone else. Do snowboarders tend to be those kind of people? ya but mostly because there are a lot of adolescents who snowboard that have no respect for their elders. Hey I will tell you I have met many skiers that I just want to punch in the face. Some people are just such jerks...

As far as banning people who don't know what in the world there doing. I am way ahead of you brotha...only problem is then there would be know more skiers meaning ski areas would make no money and would have to close. Oh well more back country and deep pow for the rest of us =D
post #58 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post

I would like to see the original poster back to make a comment.  Or did you just light a match and stand back to watch the flames?

Nope, that's why I clearly asked for reasons why. Not using my question as an reason to start arguing. Sad to see this still happens.
As I said before; in Europe we are not familiar with this concept. I estimate that about 70% is skier and about 30% is boarder. Some are both (my girlfriend for example ski's and boards).

Reason's
I heard till now for banning snowboarders are:
- sometimes snowboarders have to walk (because it's to flat). This is considered an safety issue,
- some skiers FEEL unsafe by the "blind-spot" boarders have. [in my work I learn that feeling doesn't have to be right, but the feeling itself is a fact],
- management considers use of some lifts are not safe for snowboarders,
- scrapping snow of hills could be an reason for management to bann boarding.

Also I read that lot of people think that snowboarders have less money to spend. For Europe I could not confirm this. Don't think this is an issue here. Also in Europe there is a snowboard "cult" but I get the feeling that it is less strong then in the US.

Thanks for all the input.
If someone knows an other reason why resort-management banns boarding, please feel free to add. But, please, do not use this threat as an way to express your aversion. Thanks.

-Dirk
post #59 of 105
Actually, Alta was one of the first areas to allow snowboarding. It didn't work out so well, so they ended up where they are now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post

Alta does not ban snowboarders any more than they ban snowmobilers or cyclists.  But they don't allow you to ride your bike, or your snowmobile, or your snowboard on the hill. 

 

Many's the time I've skied from Catherine's Pass back down to the Griz Gulch trailhead with snowboarding friends after a day in the Wolverine Cirque/Sunset bc. Ski patrol never stopped them. You can snowboard at Alta all you want - you just can't get on a lift with a snowboard.
post #60 of 105
Maybe the government should support all of the mountains, then we can have skiing/snowboarding licenses handed out after a training course to live up to all of the high expectations on this board.  I'm sure it would cost billions, but hey, that's chump change to Obama. 
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