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ski tuning and subsequent injury-question - Page 2

post #31 of 47
 A base high or edge high ski can be close to useless if it's bad enough (convex or concave.)

I had a pair of skis stone ground once and they were unskiable by both my friend and I on beginner terrain.  We have the same boot length and switched, they skied so poorly we both felt unsafe getting down the hill.  The best we ever figured out is that they screwed up the structure so badly that the skis resisted edge to edge changes, or just grabbed when flat.

Jer I understand what you're saying because all too often we blame our equipment instead of our skills, but from what the OP said it could very well have been something really screwed up with the skis.  This was most likely on hard packed icy terrain where problems are magnified (as compared to soft snow.)
post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

Enablement to do what?  Blame the skis?  <shrug>  

To my nose, they reek of Monday AM QB and overtech that will not help someone regain confidence.
 

That's what I was getting at. I think the OP (who to my knowledge is not a beginner) would be better served with some sort of therapy than anything else. It sounds like she was extremely traumatised by an unfortunate accident. Feeding this anxiety with a bunch of tech garbage and suggesting that if she doesn't get the tune right she will end up in the morgue does nothing to solve the problem.

Doug Coombs skied plenty of hard snow. Very high consequence hard snow. I'm a long freakin' way from Coombs, but I managed to ski the very firm entrances to a few pretty steep chutes at Silverton when I made the mistake of only bringing my Praxis Powders after they hadn't gotten any snow in weeks. Then again, when I learned to ski I never knew skis came in different lengths and sidecuts, let alone that you could tune them.Thank God my young mind was completely empty of all that important information.
post #33 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Proof View Post

A couple of years ago, I had a similar situation and the shop reworked them. It was not fun skiing them on the original tune. Fine the next day following fixing. Not sure what they did.
 
It behoves you to know what they "said" they did.   This way you can know you like de-tuned skis.  I'm not harping on you, just good advice for the next time.   Be good.
post #34 of 47
Most people seem to be giving a lot of insight on how ski's can be "ruined."  I bet there is a simple answer to this though.


99% of ski's are 1 by 1 degree. Most shops will probably just do this for you unless you specifically tell them otherwise, or if they use the marker technique like we do at our shop to get it right.

With that said, people make mistakes in shops... it happens.  Most likely is that they used a side edge machine, and the person tuning your ski's railed your edges(sharpened them from tip to tip).  When I started in my shop I experimented "ruining" a few pairs of ski's.  This way I would know how far a sharpening should go, and what happens when you "rail" an edge.

So what I expect is that you can hook up an edge, hold it well, and not blow out of that edge.  The problem with the bad edging comes when you either flip one edge and the other doesn't let go... or you want to slide out of a carve/stop, and the ski doesn't do that for you.   If this is the case you should just go back to your ski patrol buddy and have him detune them way more than you think they need it.  I suggest this because it took quite a bit of detuning to get my ski's back to normal.


For future reference I think if you ever get a bad tune you should go back to the shop immediately and explain to them what is wrong.  I love it when people come back to my shop and give me any sort of feedback, and if this shop has someone that doesn't know what they're doing it will become a little more obvious.
post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by cargalrn View Post

Yes, should have had my skis retuned.   It is my fault.  Hindsight is 20/20.   Since summer came between the tune and the new season, and a job loss and new job, my mind was not where it should have been before the accident happened. 
Again,
Thanks for the encouragement and responses.  I wish I had taken care of the problem, I'd be skiing on Utah powder is Pa.

Don't look at it like it's anybodies fault.  It happens.  When it does we all look for answers, and sometimes, there are none.  Sure you could have received a "bad tune", but like has been pointed out......well, you know.     I see OLD ladies skiing all the time!   They give me hope for the future.   When I was post surgery, I was crying with my surgeon.  I said "I don't know if I'll ever be able to ski again"  My knee got way f..ed up.   He looked at me straight in the eyes, and said  "I'll make some runs with you next year, you will ski again." 

Hope you heal well, and don't give up.
post #36 of 47
Lots of good info here, and some real bad info.

I agree with those who compare a bad tune to a bad car repair--not satisfactory and sometimes dangerous.  That is nothing like a good tune (or proper repair).

The Mahres raced 30 years ago.  Whatever they did with their equipment then has NOTHING to do with today's equipment.  Even on today's equipment, the Mahres' skill level and equipment set up has nothing to do with rec skiers.

I've never heard of any modern skis with zero (flat) bottom edge angles.  1° is very common, and racers might use .5°.  Dulling the tips and tails is old, old, old school.  It may be a help for a twister and skidder, but for no one else.  The edges forward of the snow contact point should be rounded so the sides of a rut don't pull the skis around.  2° side bevel is good for most folks.  (I like my carving skis with 3° sides and .75° bottoms feathered to 1° a foot from the tips & tails.)

So, for the original poster...find a good shop tech that can evaluate exactly what you have now.  You need to know this for your confidence, and also for instructions for the tech.  When you find out the present details, have your skis properly tuned with a conservative, easy-to-ski tune, and you'll like them a lot.  No, they don't need to be re-tuned more than once a year at most, although the side edges can be sharpened if they aren't sharp enough to scrape your thumbnail and you're skiing hard snow.  Do go over the bottom and side edges lightly with a hand stone to remove any burr that is pushed up when you hit a rock.
post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post Then again, when I learned to ski I never knew skis came in different lengths and sidecuts, let alone that you could tune them.Thank God my young mind was completely empty of all that important information.
 
Amen
post #38 of 47
Wait a minute........what's wrong with this statment:  railed your edges(sharpened them from tip to tip).   Pray tell!
post #39 of 47
Sorry - I just checked and Head skis are 0.8 degree base bevel and 89 side edge.

What this means is that it is pretty much one degree.  When a ski is run over a machine to do a stone or belt grind it will take the base edge angle to 0 degrees which feels very different underfoot than a 1 degree angle.  yes this is technical but if youdon't know what is wrong you don't know how to fix it or have it fixed.

I have tried skis tuned to zero degrees and in anything other than really soft snow they will not run straight and flat.  Will feel very sharp when on edge but awfull when straight running.  I know people that tune very close to zero degrees and while their edges feel really sharp with strong grip the skis feel nervous and twitchy and I think a bit dangerous.

This is the first thing I would check or have youor ppatroller or ski shop people look into.  It is relatively easy to put an angle back on the base side of the edge for these people.  Some even prefer more of an angle at tip and tail (rather than dulling as in the old days) than mid ski.

Mike
post #40 of 47
Railed skis have edges protruding beyond the bottom of the skis.  Skis are not railed when sharpened tip to tail.  Modern ski technique works best with skis shaprpened tip to tail.  I know of no technique that works well with railed skis.

I also take issue with those who say most manufacturers tune with one degree base and one degree edge bevel.  I know that Fischer factory tunes are one and two, as are many other brands, and Volkl demo tune (not sure about factory tune) there.

Modern skiing technique releases edges from the old turn by moving the body down the hill, which in practice requires ths so-called "fore-agonal" move, forward and diagonal.  Women, in particular, may have more issues releasing the old downhill inside edge, because q-angle often puts them on a higher edge angle,  The answer to this is proper bootfitting, not detuning tips and tail.

This raises an interesting question, did the proper tune bring to the surface some alignment issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cphillips View Post

Most people seem to be giving a lot of insight on how ski's can be "ruined."  I bet there is a simple answer to this though.


99% of ski's are 1 by 1 degree. Most shops will probably just do this for you unless you specifically tell them otherwise, or if they use the marker technique like we do at our shop to get it right.

With that said, people make mistakes in shops... it happens.  Most likely is that they used a side edge machine, and the person tuning your ski's railed your edges(sharpened them from tip to tip).  When I started in my shop I experimented "ruining" a few pairs of ski's.  This way I would know how far a sharpening should go, and what happens when you "rail" an edge.

So what I expect is that you can hook up an edge, hold it well, and not blow out of that edge.  The problem with the bad edging comes when you either flip one edge and the other doesn't let go... or you want to slide out of a carve/stop, and the ski doesn't do that for you.   If this is the case you should just go back to your ski patrol buddy and have him detune them way more than you think they need it.  I suggest this because it took quite a bit of detuning to get my ski's back to normal.


For future reference I think if you ever get a bad tune you should go back to the shop immediately and explain to them what is wrong.  I love it when people come back to my shop and give me any sort of feedback, and if this shop has someone that doesn't know what they're doing it will become a little more obvious.
post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG View Post

Volkl demo tune (not sure about factory tune) there.

Yes, factory tune for consumer skis is 1 and 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG View Post

Women, in particular, may have more issues releasing the old downhill inside edge, because q-angle often puts them on a higher edge angle,  The answer to this is proper bootfitting, not detuning tips and tail.

This raises an interesting question, did the proper tune bring to the surface some alignment issues?

 

Yes, but shes says they were fine prior to the tune. Still, you raise a very good point.
post #42 of 47
If the boot cants haven't been set, then a snappy new tune. 

custom footbeds and boot cant adjustment. then go skiing.
post #43 of 47
Just came across this because I had the shop give me a new base grind and I made a big deal about no detuning of the edges and which base and edge bevels I wanted and what kind of structure and what kind of wax and told them not to "do me any favors" by doing anything other than what I told them, got it????  This was because once before they decided that even though I didn't specifically include detuning in the list of things done, I MUST want it done, right?  Anyway, took the skis out and was amazed at the difference in the feel of the skis from the day before.  Just the new structure and the fresh edge on the spring hardpack (unusual for us) made them feel totally different and of course since I'd put the fear of God into them, they were tuned all the way to the tips.  Made for a tough day as some of the hardpack was a bit uneven to say the least.  I ended up looking for softer snow that day and hauling them home to detune them back to about an inch forward of where the ski met the snow in the front, leaving the tails alone.  And the following day I was a happy camper.  But, I got what I asked for and still I was stunned at how sloppy I'd become with the less than sharp skis I'd been on for the last season.  Normally, I don't need sharp edges really and I was just sort of allowing myself to go skidding across the spring ice, now that wasn't happening quite the same way and it was quite unnerving.  So, I can clearly see how a more major problem such as a bevel change could really impact someone who hasn't really specified what she wants done, let alone something like a clearly "bad" tune that rails the ski would, on certain types of surfaces, produce something very difficult to control.
post #44 of 47
A lot of talk about detuning here.  I've experimented both ways - sharp tip to tail and detuning tips and tails.  I find a somewhat noticeable difference but not sure if what I'm doing constitutes "detuning."  I usually take a gummi stone at a 45 degree angle and run it along the tips and tails a few times.  Is that proper detuning?  What is a detune?

To the OP, get well soon and hope you hit the slopes again.
post #45 of 47
Thread Starter 
I have not looked at this forum all winter.  We had record snow falls in Feb here in the East, and I have tried to look forward and not be down about not skiing this year, probably the best in 50 years..    My knee is still swollen, although x-rays and MRI show a healed fracture and no soft tissue damage.   I am still going to PT and trying to regain ROM but cannot get past 110-115. I underwent general anesthesia on Friday to have my knee manipulated or "bent" and have increased pain this weekend, and am told to bend thru the pain, but it is excrutiating.  I will be taking two ES Vicodan here at 5p and going to PT to try to get it bent. 
Most people I related the story to say 1) it is not the tune, but I know how they felt after , I skied on them 3x and it was awful, couldnt even do green.  and 2)  I should have taken them back and had them retuned, and if I could turn back the clock, I certainly would, but I had started a new job and it wasn't on my radar.     It has been an awful winter, and my bf has had to do alot for me.  I just started driving about a month ago, so I more independent now, but I have a CPM and I'm laying here most of the day to have it bend my knee. 
I seriously don't know if I can risk this again.   One day I feel like I'll be back next year, and then I think of all the pain and immobility I went through, and I can't ask my bf to do this for me again, for a pastime risk.
Thanks to all for your thoughts and good wishes,
Carrie
post #46 of 47
Carrie, every time I gained ROM I got real sore.  I'm still working my extension.  It's a few degrees off.  It's been two years now, and still getting better.  (knock on wood)  Anyway, you do need to work through it.  It's hard, but you can do it.  The worst thing is to sit and let it get stiff.  For me Turmeric helped a ton.  I eat two to three gram a day.  Good healing.

PS My relationship was pushed to the limit at that time for me too, but it passed, and now even better.  If you love to ski, don't give up, that's all you have to do.  I was talking to Lois today, and she was feeling great, not to fast, but hey, at eighty one years old what do you want!  There are years ahead, so a few years to get strong again is not that big of a deal.  DO IT. 
post #47 of 47

Carrie

Sorry to hear about everything you went through.  I grew up skiing at HV and know a good amount of folks still there. 

Unfortunately, a bad tune and not feeling confident on skis can really ruin the experience of skiing.  If you live near Ellicottville, I'd take the skis (and boots) to Mud Sweat n. Gears and explain the entire issue.  They are very competant and good people who have worked on a lot of my equipment over the years.

  http://www.mudsweatgears.com/index.php/home

Hope your recovery goes well.

GS

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