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New Inside Foot Turn Initiation - Page 2

post #31 of 45
Originally posted by disski:
I'm trying to meet Oz for a drink & ski - any chance I can catch you too?
I'm in Thredbo YHA all August
Would love to be involved as well if the ski is going to be at PB. There every weekend and the week of 12 August altho Masters takes some of the time. Can be contacted at Kyilla Lodge Guthega
(02) 6457 5577- ask for Kerry, or as Ant said:

(I can always find Gerathlete and co...be at the Cowpaccino at 1.30pm!).
[/quote] That's on a Sunday!
post #32 of 45
I got here late so this goes back aways.

The fellow that helped me prep for my level III ("full") exam said "As you progess up the Centerline, the difference is how much more active the inside ski becomes". He emphasized "release" even in the basic wedge.(He never could pass himself but was a great teacher and helped many of us pass).

I first heard that analogy of the F16s about five years ago from Arcmeister. He used it again this spring at the clinic I went to at Tyrol. Where did you get it? Or did you make it up?
post #33 of 45
>>>Carlton is big on inside foot stuff.<<<

Who is Carlton? I thought Mike Bell was the new director.

post #34 of 45
Carlton Guc is our only remaining level III examiner on staff. He was set to take over the training programs under Rick and has been given the nod under Mike Bell.

Mike Bell is a good organizer. Mike Bell is a level III Nordic (telemark) examiner and level II alpine guy.
post #35 of 45
Slatz--I don't know where the image of the planes originated. I've used it as long as I can remember--to me, at least, it's a pretty vivid and accurate image. I suspect it first occurred to me when I was demonstrating "skiing" with my hands--flying them through the air like...a couple F-16's! This is something I do often too--if we can teach our hands to do something, it helps in transferring the movement to the feet. And if we CAN'T do it with our hands, there's little hope....

I am a little more reluctant to use it these days, though, since a fighter pilot I had in a Mahre Training Center group at Keystone maybe 10 years ago tried to explain that it's not EXACTLY the way fighters fly. Something about one going up and one down, in a pattern more complex than meets the eye. I never understood it. I've skied since, though, with many fighter pilots, and none of them has seemed to have a problem with my simplified image. If it isn't technically correct to a pilot, at least they've been willing to overlook the details and see the point!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #36 of 45
Let me quote Bob again: One helpful key to making this exercise work is to make sure that you are already fully balanced ON the new ski before lifting the old one. You should not have to make a major balancing readjustment when you lift a ski. You might think that putting all your weight ON one ski is exactly the same as taking all the weight OFF the other one, but in practice, it is not! Simply lifting a ski does not transfer your balance to the other one. If you had weight on it, lifting it simply puts you OUT of balance. If, on the other hand, you are already balanced on the other ski, you can lift and play with the one ski as you like.

I think that that statement is the key to the inside foot "confusion". It is not important if the inside foot gets lightened or actually lifted off the snow (as you get better you will lift less and eventually none at all) as long as you are already balanced over the new outside foot. I hope that PMTS makes that clear.
But whether you lift or lighten, you have to try to engage that new inside foot rather than keeping it close to the outside foot going for the ride. This is basically what I did not like about PMTS several years ago. Today, this may not be the case.
Does PMTS push the idea of carving with the insides ski? It seems to me that as long as the stance is too narrow, carving with the inside ski (i.e. two footed carving) will be difficult to do.
post #37 of 45
I have been using the fighter jet hand-jive for years too! In fact, once while fighting laryngitis I taught a whole week like Marcel Marceau, transfering hand-jive to the feet....a great excercise for those with a proclivity to techobabble. Handjive and it's sympathetic connection to skiing would be a great thread.
post #38 of 45

I'm happy to try and answer your question about PMTS but remember I am not a PMTS instructor and my references to PMTS are based only on my personal experiences of attending a few PMTS instructor clinics, reading, and discussion.

Like any other approach I don't think I would use the term "push" for any particular approach or progression within PMTS. My experience has been one of "exploration." With that in mind I would say that carving on the inside ski has been well explored in the PMTS clinics I have attended. In fact one of my very favorite drills is working on "goofy footed" turns where each turn is done on a solely weighted inside ski. I don't think this is exclusive at all to PMTS, however. The thing I like about this drill is its requirement for "retraction" of the inside weighted leg which I find to be a very helpful reminder and training.

With this in mind, I would say that I have explored (and continue to do so) a full range of weight distribution between the inside and outside ski in a turn. All well within the framework of my perceptions of PMTS.

Now, in terms of stance width I personally don't find any difficulty with a weighted inside ski and a "narrow" stance. If I can make goofy turns with my outside ski unweighted I don't find the width of stance should matter much, although with too wide of a stance I can forsee more difficulty with transferring weight exclusively to the inside ski (not sure Pierre would agree here).
post #39 of 45
Si I'm not sure exactly what you are saying but I don't disagree with anything that you have said as I understand it.
post #40 of 45
Gerathlete - can you pm Oz - I'm at the Thredbo YHA for all of August - so anytime suits me - but if you contact him we may be able to ALL meet & have an OZ bears meeting

I'll be at Perisher at least 1 day this year I think - my friend is DETERMINED I will go there with her & some masters friend (Gus) so I'll try to catch you if it is a weekend - a weekday is more likely though - we use my private lessons to queue jump on weekends at Thredbo.
post #41 of 45
I've done the "hand jive" for years too. I owe the F 16 thing to Arc though. My kids at camp last month ate it up and they became "The Thunderbirds" for the camp syncro contest.(didn't win)
I think I have a vague idea about what that pilot was talking about.(I was a plane nut and model flyer when Iwas a kid). ,Most likely has to do with "dirty air".
post #42 of 45
Originally posted by disski:
Ant - do you ever et to escape to the huge metropolis of Jindy?

I'm trying to meet Oz for a drink & ski - any chance I can catch you too?
I'm in Thredbo YHA all August
wow. Well, I haven't yet. my poor little vitara is hopefully still sitting behind the ski tube at Bullocks. I get Sundays off, and generally either go to Perisher to use my season pass and annoy them, or do stuff here (like last week's SIC thing). Are you skiing Perisher at all, or sticking to Thredbo? Tomorrow I head to Perisher again, it's been dumping desperately here yet again, so should be good.
post #43 of 45
Was gonna keep quiet about the F-16 analogy, but seems like there is enough interest that I should explain how pilots really fly formation.

With all due respect to Bob's comments, the pilots would in fact initiate their turns sequentially, not simultaneously. You'll notice that formations are flown with one plane slightly ahead of the other - that guy's the lead. He (or she) does pretty much whatever they want (with some wingman consideration), and it's the wingman's responsibility to follow them without breaking formation. So if you're the lead you can turn left or right, go up or down, slower or faster; and it's my job as the wingman to keep our planes in the same relative relationship. If I'm good and an observer is far enough away it looks like simultaneous turns. The point is this - lead initiates everything first, with wingman following.

Anyway - while I'm not sure that F-16 formation flying is a good analogy for skiing turn initiation, I'll bet that it does get a students attention. rick p (ex-Jet Jock)

PS: Enjoyed the thread anyway. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #44 of 45
Quote from Bob's post:
>>>Imagine two F-16 fighters flying wing-to-wing, inches apart. They decide to pull a "simultaneous" turn to the left. Which one had better initiate the move? To avoid a collision, obviously, the left plane must start the turn, with the right one following immediately. Simultaneous, or sequential? I guess it depends on your definition of "immediately." Does it really matter? What really DOES matter is that the right ("outside") plane must not start the left turn first. As long as that doesn't happen, is there any real, FUNCTIONAL difference whether the delay between the left plane turning and the right plane turning is a nanosecond or two<<<

I think Bob was saying the move is sequential, but what does it matter what it is called, the movement is so synchronous that it "looks" like simultanious.

post #45 of 45
I think rick p's expianation describes what we've been talking about very well. The inside foot "leads" the "wingman"(outside foot) into the turn. When my kids worked out their "Thunderbird" routine they had to do it exactly as rick p described in order to make it look right and all drop into sync together. Everything we've talked about fits. The only problem was appling the term "simultanious" to it. Think about it, the statement was"which one turns first". If one turns first it's not simultanious. The concept is great and describes what happens, we just applied a word that didn't fit and caused some confusion. KISS!
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