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Chattering Ski

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
Just switching my turns from pressure new outside ski, big toe little toe etc. to tip those ski's with ankle/feet.  Love the new turn especially in tight places, i.e., trees and especially powder.

However I am chattering the heck out of my R ski when turning L and a little on the other side. The chattering ocurrs in the mid and almost end of the turns, i.e., while I am going across the hill, med radius turns.  Have no idea why.

Mr.  Old Fart, 5'11  194  usually on Nordica Afterburners 178    Notice on groomers/nice ones and don't notice off piste etc.

Help Please - very disconcerting.
post #2 of 27
Haha, I know how you feel! Pete! Beleive me!

Ok, first thing you are going to do is mark one ski and make sure you make
the same runs with the skies switched over. You could have blind damage
or use of one ski.

However, it is probably technique. In my experience, we have a dominant leg.
You will know this by standing straight and having someone push you in
the center of your back. You will always place one foot forward. The *other*
leg is the dominant one and it provided the energy to move you forward.

Having said this, the dominant leg will have a strong buttox and hamgstring
muscle, while the subordinate leg will have a strong quad and calf.

If you move your right foot forward, your right ankle is stronger and has better
motor skills than the left foot. So, you could be using too much edge with insufficient
pressure to make the ski chatter.

You could also have skis that are not stiff enough to keep control of your new technique
which might e very aggressive since you are glading.

This is by no means a scientific test, but it can help shed light on right-vs-left technique
differences that need to be worked on.

Hope this helps!

MG
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterGoa View Post

Haha, I know how you feel! Pete! Beleive me!

Ok, first thing you are going to do is mark one ski and make sure you make
the same runs with the skies switched over. You could have blind damage
or use of one ski.

However, it is probably technique. In my experience, we have a dominant leg.
You will know this by standing straight and having someone push you in
the center of your back. You will always place one foot forward. The *other*
leg is the dominant one and it provided the energy to move you forward.

Having said this, the dominant leg will have a strong buttox and hamgstring
muscle, while the subordinate leg will have a strong quad and calf.

If you move your right foot forward, your right ankle is stronger and has better
motor skills than the left foot. So, you could be using too much edge with insufficient
pressure to make the ski chatter.

You could also have skis that are not stiff enough to keep control of your new technique
which might e very aggressive since you are glading.

This is by no means a scientific test, but it can help shed light on right-vs-left technique
differences that need to be worked on.

Hope this helps!

MG
 

OK, more pressure?  I was skiing my Volkl Gotamas 183 and the powder and trees and really noticed when hit the groomers to the lifts coiuld this have any significance?   Also in the past demo'd some Atomic Snoops and they really chattered on me really bad and I thought they had a really soft tip. I checked the tips of the Goats and I had detuned back about 8-9in from tip.
post #4 of 27
 Can we get video Pete?
post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 Can we get video Pete?

Nope, no camera and no ability, no knowledge to put here anyway.   Sorry, sometimes I  wish I was ....... ................................

Sort of weird just came out of nowhere, played with fore/aft, pressure, real hard big toe pressure, hips forward, hands forward eetc. and still did it a lot. Go Figure.
post #6 of 27
 Is the chatter at the bottom of the turn?
post #7 of 27
If you turn from the hip vs the knee, you would be in a situation where
you have too much pressure and not enough angle. Unless I do not understand
what you mean by chatter, where the torsional stiffness of the ski cannot withstand
the pressure to keep the edge hold, only pressure can make a ski chatter...
post #8 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 Is the chatter at the bottom of the turn?

Yes, I would say the last 1/3 of the turn
post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterGoa View Post

If you turn from the hip vs the knee, you would be in a situation where
you have too much pressure and not enough angle. Unless I do not understand
what you mean by chatter, where the torsional stiffness of the ski cannot withstand
the pressure to keep the edge hold, only pressure can make a ski chatter...
 
Thats possible, too much pressure not enough angle,  thanks I'll check it next time up.   I may be getting lazy with my angle and still applying a lot of pressure.  don't know but can experiment and see.   Thanks  Pete
post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post



Just switching my turns from pressure new outside ski, big toe little toe etc. to tip those ski's with ankle/feet.  Love the new turn especially in tight places, i.e., trees and especially powder.

However I am chattering the heck out of my R ski when turning L and a little on the other side. The chattering ocurrs in the mid and almost end of the turns, i.e., while I am going across the hill, med radius turns.  Have no idea why.

Mr.  Old Fart, 5'11  194  usually on Nordica Afterburners 178    Notice on groomers/nice ones and don't notice off piste etc.

Help Please - very disconcerting.

Pete,
It is possible that you are a bit ‘overedged’. I think a few pieces of duct tape on the outside of the toe and heel of the binding will make a noticeable difference. Start with 2 pieces on the R and add 2 more pieces at a time till it is better than the L then add 2 at a time to the L till it improves. You may have to add a piece or two to the toe after a few runs as the tape will compress.

Let us know what you find out.
post #11 of 27
Often as a turn progresses one finds an excessive amount of tip lead developing on the inside ski. Very common in older skiers who learned on straight skis. This sagittal separation leads to chattering in phase III of the turn. Try holding your inside foot back to stop this, or actively pulling it back if chattering begins. Also, be precise about fore/aft balance on the outside ski - pressure the middle of the ski in phase II and most of phase III.
post #12 of 27
 You know the one about the doctor - "It hurts when I do this" - "Then stop doing that". You might want to take the chatter as a sign that the turn is over and it's time to move on to the next one. I'm not entirely kidding about that either. What may help though, is to try and get more pressure higher in the turn, so you won't have to get as much pressure in the bottom of the turn. Kinda hard to make a diagnosis when you can't see the patient though.
post #13 of 27
Pick up your inside ski off the snow when it does it, does it still chatter? I bet it don't!! you might be taking your weight off the down hill ski? try it ,might be wrong but try it.

Is a good exersize for you anyway, did I say "try it" ?
PS I'm an Old fart also
post #14 of 27
 When you lift your inside ski (especially on groomers), you will hopefully have to readjust your balance point on your ski and being in a balanced position will help lose the chatter.  You can chatter in two different ways at the end of a turn, both from incorrect pressuring of the ski.

 If you tip is chattering, and chatters this way on all skis you try so you know it is not ski related (up and down motion of the front portion of the ski), you are likely a little back on the ski after you come around from the fall line (skis pointed straight down the slope of the hill).  This is pretty common on intermediate skiers and can be corrected by initiating the turn from a more forward stance (moving the hip forward into the turn (pressure centered over your boots, more pressure felt on the front of the foot, not toes, but all over pressure) when you start your turn, absorbing the pressure form the ski through the turn through an equal folding motion (accordian style) as the turn comes around and you feel push against your foot from the snow.  Maintaining a consistent pressure over the length of your entire foot and there by maintaining a consistent pressure against the snow of the entire edge of the ski.

A second form of chatter I am guilty of myself, is when you over edge at the start of your turn and as you come around the ski in it's entire length sort of jumps tiny hops sideways and just won't grab the hill.  This is again, pressure control and corrected through technique and proper form.  It takes time to learn and become consistent.  The most difficult part of advanced skiing is learning pressure control and all it's subtleties.  Again, initiating the turn with an edge building based on the forces coming at you form the hill, and being balanced on the entire ski and absorbing the pressure gradually as it comes from the hill will keep the entire edge in the snow for you with out it trying to jump as you have over built the pressure and the ski just can't stay on the snow as the energy in the ski is just too high.

Not sure this will help...But practice on your form, separation and skiing basics will smooth it out.  You will notice it more on groomers you tend to be able to put the ski more on edge where it's flat and you have room.  You must also keep in mind where it's not as steep on the hill you need far less edge.

It is possible to keep your inside ski lifted (this is an exercise, not a permanent ski position) and still get too far back.  Keep in mind when you lift the ski, the ski lifted tip should be pointed toward the snow (angled such that you can tap the snow with the tip of it).  This forward lean should come from your full body being moved forward (90 degrees to the slope), and not from just flexing your ankle on the one foot so it touches the snow while the rest of your body is still back some.  

I hope some of this makes sense.  It's incredibly difficult to explain form in a written format with no video or pictures as it is to grasp your issue with no pictures of video and not seeing you.  
post #15 of 27
Pete, tell us about the top of the turns.  The turn can not be finished correctly if it isn't started correctly.  Are you engaging the new inside (front half) edges of your skis into the snow before they reach the fall line (downhill edges before the fall line)?  Engaging each outside ski equally on left and right turns?

If any of us are symmetrical left & right, it is purely by accident.  Has anything changed in your structure...anything stiff or kinked on one side of your body more than the other?
post #16 of 27
Pete,

I have the same problem, same leg, same turn. I have tried more counter, more edging, with no avail. But one thing does work; more ankle flexion. The biggest problem is to remember to flex the ankles at the top of the turn. I am going to try to adjust my forward lean and see what happens.

Cheers...Rick H
post #17 of 27
And how do you flex your ankles when they are attached to slippery skis? By drawing your feet back under your CoG. It's a dynamic cycle, because as the turn progresses you'll want to allow your feet to ease forward again to release the edges and prepare for the transition. I'd advise against locking yourself into boots that have more forward lean than you need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick H View Post

Pete,

I have the same problem, same leg, same turn. I have tried more counter, more edging, with no avail. But one thing does work; more ankle flexion. The biggest problem is to remember to flex the ankles at the top of the turn. I am going to try to adjust my forward lean and see what happens.

Cheers...Rick H
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 You know the one about the doctor - "It hurts when I do this" - "Then stop doing that". You might want to take the chatter as a sign that the turn is over and it's time to move on to the next one. I'm not entirely kidding about that either. What may help though, is to try and get more pressure higher in the turn, so you won't have to get as much pressure in the bottom of the turn. Kinda hard to make a diagnosis when you can't see the patient though.
You know, Epic - I was thinking the same thing - may be hanging on to the turn a bit too long, then the chatter starts! Could be just a matter of the timing of the turns..
post #19 of 27
Thread Starter 
Thanks Everyone,  Epic is so cool.   Think the problem has been solved.  When making my NEW tipping ankles/skis turn this chatter came up.   I think I was so focused on the tipping I forgot the counter, start the next turn when the old ones done,  actually looking at my ski's instead of countered down ther hill in the direction of the next turn etc.  

I sort of have these brain locks  now and then.  All of the above helped me to remember a lot that I have ignored or forgotton.  A bear PM 'd me on this too and he helped a lot.

Love my new turns, still working on of course but actually made 30 linked powder turns last Wed and was so cool I can't wait till we get some more snow.  Been a very lean, warm year so far,  buds and I are talking about taking off for BC next week if we don't have some snow pretty soon.


THANKS EVERYONE    Pete
post #20 of 27
Yes sir! Epic is where it's at!

BC and Banff all got ample snow, so you could definately make a road trip out of it!

Let us know how it went!
post #21 of 27

I have this same issue. I grew up on skis then stopped skiing in 92 when I was 18. 37 now and bought the Goats 2011 full rocker 178, I love these skis in every way and everywhere with the exception of me and ice. I thought it was the width/style of the ski underfoot, but after making a mental note to watch others on similar wide skis+ice it has become apparent the problem is me. I have tried to muscle more edge and it is causing way more chatter (visible in the carve left behind) and killing my knees. My issues are also mostly at the end of the turn. I have resorted to skidding the turns on ice and have a feeling what I am really trying to find is somewhere between the over edged turn and the skid turn :).

post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleck View Post

I have this same issue. I grew up on skis then stopped skiing in 92 when I was 18. 37 now and bought the Goats 2011 full rocker 178, I love these skis in every way and everywhere with the exception of me and ice. I thought it was the width/style of the ski underfoot, but after making a mental note to watch others on similar wide skis+ice it has become apparent the problem is me. I have tried to muscle more edge and it is causing way more chatter (visible in the carve left behind) and killing my knees. My issues are also mostly at the end of the turn. I have resorted to skidding the turns on ice and have a feeling what I am really trying to find is somewhere between the over edged turn and the skid turn :).



the goat are not good hard snow skis. there are other wide skis that are way better than they are.

post #23 of 27

Chattering on the bottom 1/3 of the turn, particularly on steeper and icier surfaces, might one of the most common struggles seen on the slopes.  The primary reason for chatter is because you are not carving, you are trying to skid.  If you init your turns cleanly on a bent ski and get it to glide more, chatter will be reduced or eliminated.  

 

But what happens is that if you create some steering angle, because you want to skid and slow yourself down.  In the bottom half of the turn, the forces all conspire against you because you are trying to edge enough to slow yourself down, but your edges want to bounce out of their slots down the hill due to the force of gravity and turn forces combining there.  

 

You can flatten your ski, but then your tails are likely going to wash out too.

 

so what then?  For starters, get forward onto the shovels from the very top of the turn and stay forward, don't fall back onto the tails.  Keep the ski bent!!  You want to make something closer to a carved turn.  You want to slow yourself down with line choice rather than skidding and especially without your heels pushing out.

 

post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



the goat are not good hard snow skis. there are other wide skis that are way better than they are.



   Would a ski with an underfoot camber help with this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Chattering on the bottom 1/3 of the turn, particularly on steeper and icier surfaces, might one of the most common struggles seen on the slopes.  The primary reason for chatter is because you are not carving, you are trying to skid.  If you init your turns cleanly on a bent ski and get it to glide more, chatter will be reduced or eliminated.  

 

But what happens is that if you create some steering angle, because you want to skid and slow yourself down.  In the bottom half of the turn, the forces all conspire against you because you are trying to edge enough to slow yourself down, but your edges want to bounce out of their slots down the hill due to the force of gravity and turn forces combining there.  

 

You can flatten your ski, but then your tails are likely going to wash out too.

 

so what then?  For starters, get forward onto the shovels from the very top of the turn and stay forward, don't fall back onto the tails.  Keep the ski bent!!  You want to make something closer to a carved turn.  You want to slow yourself down with line choice rather than skidding and especially without your heels pushing out.

 



               Thanks for this information.

 

                  I am also wondering if adjusting the boot cant one way or the other may have much affect on edge set. All other things being setup/proper.

post #25 of 27

Great advice from borntoski683. Which is why I question detuning the tips to avoide chatter. Tips need to be sharp and track well, while the tails can wash out a bit and avoide skipping.

post #26 of 27

I don't think you want any detuned edges to ski on ice.  

post #27 of 27

Good advice B2ski. May I add. Keep your upper body erect for good skeletal alignment.

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