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Proper technique for diamond stones - Page 2

post #31 of 62

Atomicman, your son is 24 and you tune his skis for him?  Awesome.

post #32 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post

Atomicman, your son is 24 and you tune his skis for him?  Awesome.

No he is 27!!! biggrin.gif

post #33 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdleuck View Post

Stomparound, read Atomicman's post (#27 above) for your answer.

Only the base edge. No need to deburr the side edge, unless you are not understanding the 'deburr" we are speaking of, which is the hanging bur created by sharpening and polishing the side edge.

 

You only use diamond stones to sharpen and polish the side edge. The burr created on the side edge form working on the base edge gets broken off when you ski, but the hanging burr created from working on the side edge goes straight down into the snow and makes your skis totally rabby and unpredictalbe.

 

I would only work on the side edge with a bevel guide.

 

Any slight microscopic burr on the edge point can quikcly and easily removed with a NO PRESSURE 45 degree hard gummi stone pass!

post #34 of 62

Nice pic, I didn't pay attention to your location until I saw the CMAC gate.   smile.gif

post #35 of 62

I've been following this and see what is said about hanging burrs and how to get rid of them.

 

I'm going to share what was taught to me in sharpening chisel, axes for log building back when I was 16.  Yes, my axes are sharp enough to shave with (and still are), and most that use the knives I sharpen, get a cut or too before they realize they've been cut.  Most of what I do is with a simple mill file, unless I get A**L and go at with with stones, diamonds and paste.

 

It is light passes on both sides on the edge to flex the burr back and forth for a controlled break.  One side then the other.  What this controlled break does is form the smallest burr possible (yes there will always be one), the idea is that the burr will not break further or interfere with what is intended  or break and cause a dull spot.  Also a large burr is give the appearance of one sharp side and one dull side (see below how to feel for burr)

 

FYI what the burr is is metal that is pull of the edge during sharpening and not sheared or broken off (and thats why the new high tech sharpeners don't leave a burr as they cut into the edge and off of the edge so that the burr doesn't form)

 

Now with the tools available today would I use a gummy stone. NO. You are creating a dull spot (though very small).  If you want to be A**L than progressive side passes and alternatinf=base pass (both with guide on progressively finer grits (1200 or smaller).  The burr will be virtually non existent this way with a razor sharp edge.

 

Here's how I feel the burrs.  I rub my thumb off the edge (important if you don't want to bleed) from both sides, the side that has a grab to it is the side that the burr is curled towards, this side needs a pass.  Back and forth til you can't feel it.  (Never rub lengthwise as this will cut, as your friends will find out before you have a chance to warn them or if you don't take me serious)

 

Works on knives, chisels, axes and skis!

 

Remember if you do this last step wrong you will bleed as you can create a razors edge (with or without the burr) and it does cut.

 

For those that have more interest in this, there are some very good books that describe and show how to sharpen hand tools for wood working.  Don't forget nothing is finer to work with than a sharp tool.

 

Take from this for what its worth and enjoy (I've learned a lot from many on this site and I hope I've just add some knowledge that is worth while).

post #36 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

I've been following this and see what is said about hanging burrs and how to get rid of them.

 

I'm going to share what was taught to me in sharpening chisel, axes for log building back when I was 16.  Yes, my axes are sharp enough to shave with (and still are), and most that use the knives I sharpen, get a cut or too before they realize they've been cut.  Most of what I do is with a simple mill file, unless I get A**L and go at with with stones, diamonds and paste.

 

It is light passes on both sides on the edge to flex the burr back and forth for a controlled break.  One side then the other.  What this controlled break does is form the smallest burr possible (yes there will always be one), the idea is that the burr will not break further or interfere with what is intended  or break and cause a dull spot.  Also a large burr is give the appearance of one sharp side and one dull side (see below how to feel for burr)

 

FYI what the burr is is metal that is pull of the edge during sharpening and not sheared or broken off (and thats why the new high tech sharpeners don't leave a burr as they cut into the edge and off of the edge so that the burr doesn't form)

 

Now with the tools available today would I use a gummy stone. NO. You are creating a dull spot (though very small).  If you want to be A**L than progressive side passes and alternatinf=base pass (both with guide on progressively finer grits (1200 or smaller).  The burr will be virtually non existent this way with a razor sharp edge.

 

Here's how I feel the burrs.  I rub my thumb off the edge (important if you don't want to bleed) from both sides, the side that has a grab to it is the side that the burr is curled towards, this side needs a pass.  Back and forth til you can't feel it.  (Never rub lengthwise as this will cut, as your friends will find out before you have a chance to warn them or if you don't take me serious)

 

Works on knives, chisels, axes and skis!

 

Remember if you do this last step wrong you will bleed as you can create a razors edge (with or without the burr) and it does cut.

 

For those that have more interest in this, there are some very good books that describe and show how to sharpen hand tools for wood working.  Don't forget nothing is finer to work with than a sharp tool.

 

Take from this for what its worth and enjoy (I've learned a lot from many on this site and I hope I've just add some knowledge that is worth while).

I would have to respectfully interject that a ski has a different interaction with the material it is cutting or sliding through than an axe. It is not a matter of sharpness with a ski it is that the burr sticks down into the snow. If you use a gummi (and a HARD gummi) with absolutly no pressure at a 45 degree angle to the edge point you will not dull the edge, the key is to just simply slide it along the edge point as lightly as you possibly can. This is after knocking the hanging burr off with an arknasa or true hard stone flat agains the base edge. A burr created from filing the base edge has no adverse effect on skiability, it breaks off at the first turn!

post #37 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodPNW View Post

Nice pic, I didn't pay attention to your location until I saw the CMAC gate.   smile.gif

Yep, that is coming over the knoll on Quicksilver under Chair 4.

 

He ran the fastest run of the day in photo! beercheer.gif

post #38 of 62

Atomicman, the knowledge that I gain from you is great so bear with me for a moment.

 

 "A burr created from filing the base edge has no adverse effect on skiability, it breaks off at the first turn!"  Correct, and this actually starts the progression to a dull edge (same thing occurs on knives and tools).  The reason is it does not effect skiability is that the burr is curled upwards towards the edge and is actually providing a dull edge (or rounded edge) though very small, similar to an increased based bevel.

 

"It is not a matter of sharpness with a ski it is that the burr sticks down into the snow." Yes, remember how I said that you can feel the burr.  Because the burr is curled down towards the base it is acting similar to a razor blade fin and depending on how it catches can lead to some unpleasant surprises before it breaks off and starts the dulling process.  This is similar to a decreased or negative base bevel.

 

"If you use a gummi (and a HARD gummi) with absolutly no pressure at a 45 degree angle to the edge point you will not dull the edge, the key is to just simply slide it along the edge point as lightly as you possibly can."  If you remove the burr with diamond stones gradually without a 45 pass you actually end up up with a better (sharper) and longer lasting edge.  That light pass with the gummi actual creates a slightly rounded edge (very very small, relatively speaking), which also lasts (because there is no burr to break) but the edge is not as sharp as the alternating pass method.  Mind you it is still a sharp edge relative to the ice.

 

Now as to which is the best, personally I think it comes down to personal preference,  I love razor sharp edges and have skied with such for as long as I can remember (family members don't get a choice biggrin.gif they learn to deal with it and enjoy it).  For those that I've tuned for, once they get past the responsiveness, they keep coming back for more.

 

Best I can say is try it, you might actually like it once you get past the initial twitchieness of the ski due to the sharper edge (slightly).  I also find I have more ski time between sharpenings this way.  Gummi is still there in case you have to tune it down just a bit (relatively speaking of course).

post #39 of 62

   It's a matter of preference I suppose...as we all know, high end tuners/techs each have their own procedures. I've read articles written by wc techs that advocate the 45* gummi pass. Others use a couple of light passes with a ceramic along the base edge (freehand, but effectively matching the base edge bevel. i.e., flat to the base edge with just one end of the ceramic touching to "cut the curl")

 

   I have used both in the past, but I now use Willy Wiltz's method of alternating: Base 200 grit, then side 200 grit. base 400 grit, than side 400 grit, and so on and so on...a serious pain in the butt, but I like the results. As an aside, Willy also begins to remove file striations with 320 grit sandpaper (wet) wrapped tightly around a file in his guide! Now that's just crazy talk biggrin.gif!!

 

    zenny

post #40 of 62

You can actually purchase  sandpaper down to about 2500 grit and stick it to a something flat and use as a stone with you really want to frustrate yourself biggrin.gif.  But think of the polished and shiny edges you have grandma roflmao.gif

post #41 of 62

I've said it before - the stones barely do anything.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't use them, but don't worry much about speed, technique, or direction as long as you have them in a guide at the correct angle.  Even certain files really don't take off much material, but at least it's visible.

 

If you rubbed a 100 grit stone on your ski edge from now until the day you die, you'll still pass on a ski with plenty of edge left.

post #42 of 62
goldsbar-- a properly honed edge is not only sharper...it stays sharper longer. diamond stones refine the surfaces of the base and side edge, so they do do something.... what would i know though? im just a race tech wink.gif

zenny
post #43 of 62
hope i didnt come across too harshly there, goldsbar smile.gif but to continue, many (including Willy) will use short,back and forth motions for the first pass or two, and then increase these"laps" more and more with each pass untill finishing up with several full length passes, tip to tail, tail to tip (as direction during edge work is inconsequential)

zenny
post #44 of 62

Ding, ding ding, that's a winner!yahoo.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

hope i didnt come across too harshly there, goldsbar smile.gif but to continue, many (including Willy) will use short,back and forth motions for the first pass or two, and then increase these"laps" more and more with each pass untill finishing up with several full length passes, tip to tail, tail to tip (as direction during edge work is inconsequential)

zenny
post #45 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

Atomicman, the knowledge that I gain from you is great so bear with me for a moment.

 

 "A burr created from filing the base edge has no adverse effect on skiability, it breaks off at the first turn!"  Correct, and this actually starts the progression to a dull edge (same thing occurs on knives and tools).  The reason is it does not effect skiability is that the burr is curled upwards towards the edge and is actually providing a dull edge (or rounded edge) though very small, similar to an increased based bevel.

 

"It is not a matter of sharpness with a ski it is that the burr sticks down into the snow." Yes, remember how I said that you can feel the burr.  Because the burr is curled down towards the base it is acting similar to a razor blade fin and depending on how it catches can lead to some unpleasant surprises before it breaks off and starts the dulling process.  This is similar to a decreased or negative base bevel.

 

"If you use a gummi (and a HARD gummi) with absolutly no pressure at a 45 degree angle to the edge point you will not dull the edge, the key is to just simply slide it along the edge point as lightly as you possibly can."  If you remove the burr with diamond stones gradually without a 45 pass you actually end up up with a better (sharper) and longer lasting edge.  That light pass with the gummi actual creates a slightly rounded edge (very very small, relatively speaking), which also lasts (because there is no burr to break) but the edge is not as sharp as the alternating pass method.  Mind you it is still a sharp edge relative to the ice.

 

Now as to which is the best, personally I think it comes down to personal preference,  I love razor sharp edges and have skied with such for as long as I can remember (family members don't get a choice biggrin.gif they learn to deal with it and enjoy it).  For those that I've tuned for, once they get past the responsiveness, they keep coming back for more.

 

Best I can say is try it, you might actually like it once you get past the initial twitchieness of the ski due to the sharper edge (slightly).  I also find I have more ski time between sharpenings this way.  Gummi is still there in case you have to tune it down just a bit (relatively speaking of course).

Twitchy w/o the 45 degree gummi, Never!  Unless something alse is wrong.  I have done it both ways for years, I just find the 45 degree pass leaves a smoother sharper feeling edge. 

 

Zen, I don't like to diamond stone the base edge much, unless someone really goofs up the grind and gets it deep into the base edge. Otherwise I use the finest file I can find to base bevel, and very lightly polish if at all. Also, the hanging burr (ceramic or arkansas or surgical flat against the base edge is a different issue that the 45 degree gummi s not attempting to remedy. No matter whta you do, you end up with a tiny burr on the edge point and the no pressure 45 degree gummi pass just takes that off and I would have to disagree with OS, it is NOt dulling or rounding the edge. if I want to dull or round the edge with a gummi, don't get me wrong, that is totally doable and I may do a bit of that past the contact points. But the fina; ultra light gummi pass at a 45 is by no means that!

 

Even Scott holmer inventor of the beast tuning gear uses a gummi at a 45. (He son Eric got pretty high up in speed events on Nor AM was Head Coach of the Jamaican TEam and is a Tech for the US team now!)


Edited by Atomicman - 2/8/13 at 2:07pm
post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   It's a matter of preference I suppose...as we all know, high end tuners/techs each have their own procedures. I've read articles written by wc techs that advocate the 45* gummi pass. Others use a couple of light passes with a ceramic along the base edge (freehand, but effectively matching the base edge bevel. i.e., flat to the base edge with just one end of the ceramic touching to "cut the curl")

 

   I have used both in the past, but I now use Willy Wiltz's method of alternating: Base 200 grit, then side 200 grit. base 400 grit, than side 400 grit, and so on and so on...a serious pain in the butt, but I like the results. As an aside, Willy also begins to remove file striations with 320 grit sandpaper (wet) wrapped tightly around a file in his guide! Now that's just crazy talk biggrin.gif!!

 

    zenny

 

Yup, that is how I do it with the white arkansas stone.  Quick and simple!

post #47 of 62
a man...good discussion here ! i hear ya on the grinds wink.gif!! for base beveling, i use a couple of light passes with a fine file, stopping before i have acheived my desired angle (just before, an in a tiny sliver of untouched steel right next to the base) the subbsequent diamond passes effectively "finish" the beveling process and polish...this helps ensure that over beveling is a non-event while leaving a smooooth base edge smile.gif

scott is one of the people i was thinking of when i wrote my post, btw...i suppose willy's pretty good too;) lol! to everyone reading, dont get confused, any of the above methods are very effective...it has a lot to do with preference and comfort...

zenny
post #48 of 62

  A-man...I must "confess" to using a 45* gummy pass last night on my wife's skis rolleyes.gif.............biggrin.gif

 

     zenny

post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

  A-man...I must "confess" to using a 45* gummy pass last night on my wife's skis rolleyes.gif.............biggrin.gif

 

     zenny

Hallelujah!yahoo.gif

post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Hallelujah!yahoo.gif

   I must say...I thought I heard the sounds of angels weeping!! Or was that a ballast in one of my fluorescent lights? ROTF.gif

 

    zenny

post #51 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

   I must say...I thought I heard the sounds of angels weeping!! Or was that a ballast in one of my fluorescent lights? ROTF.gif

 

    zenny


          I thought I heard the sound of angles weeping!!    FIFY    biggrin.gif

post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


          I thought I heard the sound of angles weeping!!    FIFY    biggrin.gif

    Ooops! biggrin.gif

 

   zenny

post #53 of 62

Can you use a ceramic stone to knock off the hanging burr or is it too fine?

post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by hespeler View Post

Can you use a ceramic stone to knock off the hanging burr or is it too fine?

Yep. Anything flat hard stone. I like a true hardstone or surgical stone or arkansas, but have been known to grab any stone handy.

post #55 of 62

I am new to the game of ski tuning and pretty green. I seem to be sharpening the edges ok but could be doing damage. I have a  400 moonflex diamond file and haven't a clue when you use the water/alcohol, when, why and what do you use it for? Sorry for being so ignorant please enlighten.

 

Oldish
 

post #56 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post

Does it have to be denatured or will isopropyl work?

It's been a while since this was asked, but better late than never:  I STRONGLY advise to avoid denatured alcohol if there's a risk of it contacting your skin. Alcohol is denatured with methanol, which is extremely toxic.

post #57 of 62

I'd be less worried about skin contact, but more of atomized mist as you apply it and happen inhale it.

post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldish View Post

I am new to the game of ski tuning and pretty green. I seem to be sharpening the edges ok but could be doing damage. I have a  400 moonflex diamond file and haven't a clue when you use the water/alcohol, when, why and what do you use it for? Sorry for being so ignorant please enlighten.

 

Oldish

 

I have been using the denatured alky/water 50/50 mix for 10+ years now, I use a old tooth brush and wet the 100 moonflex and clamp it into my 93 edge guide. Run it up down the edge 2,3 or 4 times. wipe the edge with old towel and do the other edge.

 

Then I go ski, next night do the same thing. 2,3 or 4 times with the wet 100 grit and wipe the edge.

 

Every few day's I take a mill file in the 1* base guide and knoc off anything rised so it won't scratch the iron when I wax.

 

If it's going to be real icey I may take a file to the edge followed by the 100 grit. May be followed by a 200grit moonflex.

 

My skis ski great and last a very long time. My 2 y/o volkl kendo's have never been to a shop, and my AC40's (150+day's) have more metal edge left in them them my buddies new Firearrows that get a season tune.

 

My skis are are sharp as his.

 

Don't over think this.

 


 

post #59 of 62

I should add that I use the Ski Visions base flattening tools, the file one and medium stone one before do the tune before waxing. Which is about every 3-4 ski days.

post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 



You  must remove the hanging burr with a hardstone after filing or diamond stoning. And yes you freehand the arkansas stone. The key is to simply hold the stone against the base edge with about 1/4 of the stone above the side edge, best done in a vise with the side edge up base facing away from you. Use your thumb as a guide along the sidewall (facing up in the vise) and simply with medium pressure, and polish back & forth.
 

I realize this is an old thread but there seems to be a lot of knowledge here. Deburring with the Arkansas stone as described above, can I mess this up freehand - too much pressure, bad edge angle, etc? Would using my 1degree base guide to deburr with the Arkansas stone accomplish the same thing, or does the freehand pass do something special?

 

Also, I can't decide if I'm understanding this or not: for regular routine edge tuning, are you working on the base edge at all? (even diamond stone polishing) Other than the deburring described above of course. I currently polish my base edge with a guide & diamond stones the same way I do my side edges - should I not do the base edge?

 

Thanks a lot!

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