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Other options to Czar

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I demo'd the Salomon Czar and Shogun the other day.  Loved them both, much better than my carvers (Elan Magfire 8's 176).  I'm 200lb 6'3". 

I liked that they went over everything, powder, treetops, moguls, crud.  Especially crud.  I liked that they still carved, although not as well as my carvers at super high speeds, but I'm not really a speed demon.  I liked that they turned nicely in powder, and actually turned with less effort in any tight spots than the magfires.  I had confidence in the trees that I could do what I want.  I didn't need to lean way back to keep my tips up.

I think I want to go big, so now I'm saving to buy the Czars or skis that are similar to it.  What's similar?  So far the Gotamas and the Obsethed look the most similar, although a bit narrower.

I want:
*Rocker tip for the crud
*Twin tip so I can go backwards to get out of trouble (and just for fun)
*Some traditional camber and sidecut, because at Sunshine (my home hill) you have to ski piste to find powder
*Wide, something wider than the 'Gun which is 101mm

Any suggestions?  I might like to go into an AT binding and buy some skins for the new pair; not sure if that opens up new ski options.  (I have a lot of x-country and light-touring experience, but no alpine touring experience.)

Also I demo'd 182's; should I try the 190's?

Thanks,
post #2 of 22
If you can wait about a month for them to be made ?
http://on3pskis.com/?page_id=48
post #3 of 22
Volkl Katanas better than the gotama in everyway now.
Atomic Coax

If you go At binding on ski that going to be used inbounds alot dont get anything other than the Barons/Dukes.
post #4 of 22
 Definitely look at the Line Mothership.  I plan to do a full review at some point, but let's just say I am extremely impressed with the combination of sidecut, rocker/camber, and materials.  I have yet to throw a condition at the skis that they could not handle (including eastern hardpack, believe it or not).  I really prefer them over last year's Katana (have not skied the newer model).
post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 
Aren't the Katanas awfully flat?  No camber?  I thought I wanted a bit of camber.  Then again, maybe camber is just for skiing fast on hardpack, which I often do but never on purpose. 

Also the Czars have a very big radius, ~40 m.  I thought that would make them better at long turns, instead of quick turns, but they still turned nice and quick in the trees.  What's up with that?  Maybe I don't understand radius.  I mean, I understand it from a physics/engineering perspective, but maybe I don't understand it from a performance/skiers perspective.
post #6 of 22
You have skied two good versatile skis already. Don't invite analysis paralysis......buy the one you liked the best and go skiing. I have skied both of the ones you demoed and all the others mentioned, there are no magic bullets. Quit thinkin'....and go have fun.

SJ
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT View Post

If you can wait about a month for them to be made ?
http://on3pskis.com/?page_id=48

LOL....i was thinking the exact same thing when I clicked this thread. I can't wait to pick up some Billygoats.
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineDad View Post

Aren't the Katanas awfully flat?  No camber?  I thought I wanted a bit of camber.  Then again, maybe camber is just for skiing fast on hardpack, which I often do but never on purpose. 

Also the Czars have a very big radius, ~40 m.  I thought that would make them better at long turns, instead of quick turns, but they still turned nice and quick in the trees.  What's up with that?  Maybe I don't understand radius.  I mean, I understand it from a physics/engineering perspective, but maybe I don't understand it from a performance/skiers perspective.


This helped me with understanding turn radius: http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/89913/help-understanding-turning-radius

To make it simple turning radius doesn't mean that much in the powder.

Also pretty much any ski company makes a ski  like the czar. Some ones i've heard good reviews about are: Armada JJ, Rossi S7, Liberty Double Helix, Night Train (I forget the company), and the Billy Goat (as listed about)

good luck!
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Downhillin99 View Post

Also pretty much any ski company makes a ski  like the czar. Some ones i've heard good reviews about are: Armada JJ, Rossi S7, Liberty Double Helix, Night Train (I forget the company), and the Billy Goat (as listed about)
 

None of those skis are like the Czar.

SJ
post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
 What do you mean, SJ?
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Downhillin99 View Post

Also pretty much any ski company makes a ski  like the czar. Some ones i've heard good reviews about are: Armada JJ, Rossi S7, Liberty Double Helix, Night Train (I forget the company), and the Billy Goat (as listed about)
 

That's quite the disparate list of skis.  Isn't the Double Helix a conventional-sidecut/conventional-camber, the Moment Night Train a conventional sidecut/partial-rocker, while the JJ, S7 and Billy Goat are partial-reverse-sidecut/partial-rocker?

And the Czar is a conventional-sidecut/tip-only-rocker.

How were those like the Czar again?
post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineDad View Post

Aren't the Katanas awfully flat?  No camber?  I thought I wanted a bit of camber.  Then again, maybe camber is just for skiing fast on hardpack, which I often do but never on purpose. 

Also the Czars have a very big radius, ~40 m.  I thought that would make them better at long turns, instead of quick turns, but they still turned nice and quick in the trees.  What's up with that?  Maybe I don't understand radius.  I mean, I understand it from a physics/engineering perspective, but maybe I don't understand it from a performance/skiers perspective.

The "design" radius only exists when you completely edge the ski on hard snow and make a pure carve.  Away from that design radius, there is a wide range of skid turns, some still very efficient and close to a carve.  The farther you deviate from the design radius, the more skidding involved.  Sometimes that is good (speed control).  I've skied some of those long radius skis in tight spaces on hard snow, and it's all about pointing the tips then swiveling the tails around in a sweep type of skid.  That is very good for speed control, and skiing bumps.  

In softer snow or powder, you're really just floating and using the flats of the skis (their area) for both turning and speed control, and I think the whole idea of radius sort of fades from importance.  There, width becomes more important IMO.

I think the benefit of camber, and ski construction, is when you get these types of wide skis onto harder snow or groomers.  I tried a few wide skis last season (Hellbent, Obsethed, Katana) and disliked the "about to self destruct" feeling I got anywhere outside of soft snow.  Katana was the best of that bunch in that regard, but I believe it has gained more rocker for 2010.  On the other hand, the Mothership, with metal layers and minimal camber, hustles just fine on packed snow and groomers, and feels bulletproof at high speeds.  Still does awesome in deep soft snow.  So that kind of tells me I want some camber and substance to my wide skis.  Personally, I am no ready to accept the trades that come with full rocker.  Someone that skis deep powder more often would make that trade.
post #13 of 22
Sorry SJ and DtEW what I was trying to get at is that almost every ski company makes a powder ski and if you have the chance you should try and demo as many as possible maybe the Czar was a awesome ski and then you try the S7 and figure out that it is 100x better. So if the czar is the only powder ski you've tried i'd advise trying a differently shaped ski (DtEW did a pretty good job of stating the differences).
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Downhillin99 View Post

Sorry SJ and DtEW what I was trying to get at is that almost every ski company makes a powder ski and if you have the chance you should try and demo as many as possible maybe the Czar was a awesome ski and then you try the S7 and figure out that it is 100x better. So if the czar is the only powder ski you've tried I'd advise trying a differently shaped ski.

DH, I get what you are saying. There are lots and lots of new, cool designs out there, it's worth sampling a bunch to get an idea of what you like best. This is true.

What SJ is saying is: why continue to demo if you've found a ski you love? If the point of 'demoing' is to find a ski you are willing to purchase, then once you've found that pair, stop and make a purchase and go enjoy your new skis. Trying every ski made will lead to more new designs being released, which will lead to more demoing... which turns the process into ski rentals. This is totally fine if you like to geek-out on skis and just like 'testing', if you like to just go ski, then having your own skis, to me at least, is more important than finding the 'greatest-ski-ever-made'... 'cause there will always be something 'better' coming down the pike.
post #15 of 22
Really?

I am not going to look up the dims on every one, but the Two Skis mentioned made locally by Moment (Night Train) and the Ski I mentioned: The Billy goat By ON3P  are so close in design and dimensions its not even worth debating. Only difference being that people who can ski and have skied all of them think the Night Train and Billy Goat perform BETTER than the Czar in every condition.

The Czar seems to be a Johnny comes lately after the Indies proved the design of the fat normal side cut with Tip rocker design.

PM gear came out with the Broker (Tip Rocker) now Lhasa Pow 3 Years ago.   This year Yea EVERY Company has a flavor of this design.

As for the Billy Goat and ON3P.  If he reads the history and what Chris is doing? The OP might find that as a very compelling reason to give the Ski a chance.

If you are a retailer in the ski biz, obviously you’re not going to recommend that ski.  But to discount the ski as a valid option is??  Transparent to say the least
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the info guys.  I went out again today and looked carefully at every wide ski (>105mm) I saw on the slopes, and the only one I saw with conventional side cut, tip rocker, and twin tips was the Czar.  So it's by far the easiest to find of that variety around here.

I only tried two wide skis, both made by Salomon, and I loved them both.  I agree with the one poster who said if I find a ski I love, I should buy it so that I can enjoy it.  I also agree with the other poster who said that if this is my first time trying wide skis, and I loved them, it could just be that I love wide skis, and that another wide ski might be 100x better.  

Probably need a few more weeks to get budgetary approval to buy anyways.  So I'll try to demo a few more, just to keep me happy in the meantime.  One thing I found out today for sure, it turns out I don't like my old carvers that I thought I loved. 
post #17 of 22
As I understand, the Obsethed is fairly similar in 'personality' to the Czar - I've skied the Obsethed but not the Czar.
Its got a bit of tail rocker too so might feel a bit more vague on the groomers - although still some camber underfoot.

I'm an aggressive advanced skier, 6'4, 200lbs and skied the 179 Obsethed (189 was unavailable) in a foot of fresh and found it be a whole lot of fun - very nimble, exceptionally easy to ski in the pow, great float. In crud it got knocked around a bit and it certainly wasn't spectacular or especially stable on the groomers - although, again groomer skiing was easy. Just not so great in high edge angle dynamic turns. But that's not its forte.

If you can find one - it might be worth a demo for comparison (or confusion) with the Czar ;)
post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
 My brother bought the Obsethed.

Ideally, I should ski my brother's Obsethed and some demo Czars on the same day.  Unfortunately, that would involve flying to Whistler-Blackcomb, which wouldn't help with the problem of affording them.  Unless I could convince him to come here to ski with me.

So maybe I should just by the Czars.  If they aren't the best skis, at least they'd be fatter than my bro's.

--
John 
post #19 of 22
Don't worry about the best....there is no such thing. What there is for sure is a ski that you demoed and liked. I'd suggest you buy it. If you are still worrying about trying more skis, knock yourself out, there are a lot of really good ones. The Obsethed is not as good as the Czar when daily use and season long conditions are considered. The 'sethed might (in theory anyway) be a touch better in deeper snow b/c of the tip and tail rocker although IME it isn't. (no worse either)

SJ
post #20 of 22
SJ, what makes you say the Czar is superior to the Obsethed as a daily driver?
post #21 of 22
I should clarify that daily use and season long conditions implies to me that a variety of snow depths, surfaces and conditions are operative. The 'sethed is very good in 3-D snow but is less so when the surface is consolidated. While the Czar is not stellar on hard pack it is better than the 'sethed. The Czar is also better in (or maybe on is a better term) consolidated off trail snow conditions.

So....if ones vision of a daily driver is the ski that is best in deep snow, then one could argue the 'sethed is at least as good as the Czar. To me that is a limited viewpoint but to each his own. I skied the 'sethed and the Czar on the same day last year in a combo of 18" new (mostly windblown) some hacked up remnants of same, plus some firmish groomers as well. While the 'sethed was one of the better skis from that factory on that day, the Czar was a more complete package.

SJ
post #22 of 22
I thought long and hard between the Obsethed and the Czar and ended up buying the Obsetheds last spring (didn't have the opportunity to demo either).  The Obsethed isn't like anything else I've ever been on and I absolutely love it!  The best way I know to describe them is that they feel like a quick turning Cadillac.  They aren't bad on the hardpack, but I prefer my '07 Snoop Daddy's on those days.  Any way, thanks for the response SJ.  I always enjoy hearing your .02.
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