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The Elephant in the Living Room - Page 8

post #211 of 229
mainly because I'm traditional with language. if you travel too far down the "language changes over time" road, you end up in bed with Foucault and Derrida, and based upon their same-sex predilections, I surmise that would be very boring and a bit disgusting.

Honestly, all those acronyms you tossed out don't mean a whit to me. it's not a matter of how much learning you do that places you in a "learned profession." Learning is the first part, profession is the second.

I am not trying to denigrate those that teach skiing for a living. All I'm seeking is an accurate description.

FWIW, I don't call myself a "professional" even though I'm engaged in one of the two classic learned professions. IMHO, presently the term "professional" is so diluted as to be almost an embarrassing cliche.

I really couldn't follow your point here, NB. What exactly are you wondering? The only part I could grab was the continual insistence on the "P" in "PSIA" and what that is supposed to mean. When we hang our worth on labels, we leave ourselves open to precarity.

I want lessons from one who knows how to see problems and describe errors in an understandable fashion. I don't care whether that person is a "Professional" ski instructor. I care only about the substance and technique.

Ignore the issue of "what is a Professional" and you might get somewhere. The fact that this thread now runs 6 pages indicates that somewhere along the way there's a rotting horse carcass.
post #212 of 229
1. Okay, a long time ago, the five professions were medicine, law, teaching, the clergy and the military, if I recall correctly. They were occupations that could be pursued by younger sons of the gentry without getting their hands dirty in commerce. All of them had three common characteristics: they required training, they required their practitioners to put themselves and their skills personally on the line, and they were all in some sense altruistic (pursued for the benefit of a client, patient, student, parish, king and country). With the passage of time, various facets of those three common characteristics became more determinative and the social status and gentility stuff fell by the wayside.
2. All right, then we get the great divide between amateur and professional in sports. Amateurs were gentlemen sportsmen who did not dirty their hands touching money in competition, who competed for the love of the game. Professionals, well, I suppose we have to let them compete in the Open, but no need for them to dress in the clubhouse lockeroom. In second half of the 20th century, the status of the amateurs and the pros inverted. Nowadays, if you pick the right sport, and you're good enough at it, you can make a respected living at sports. On the other hand, no matter how good you are, if you pick the wrong sport, better have a day job. I really liked the TV ads featuring the Home Depot medal count at the Winter Olympics because it made that point (as well as spoofing the chauvinists).
3. So, money has very little to do with the first usage, and everything to do with the second usage. I sometimes wonder how the financial rewards for various professions (in the first sense) can be so different--teachers make so little, and brain surgeons make so much. But then I consider the 'pick your sport' issues for professional athletes (who are really entertainers, as far as their compensation goes), and I think the answer lies there.
post #213 of 229
Gonzo, on the first page of this thread I said:
>>>Now if I had my druthers, instructors and their badges would refer only to CERTIFIED, which means now Level-3, and we would go back to Associate and Registered status for Level-2 and Level-1<<<

Maybe we should drop the "P" in PSIA and put in a "C" for certified like in SIA-C for certified, SIA-A for associate and SIA-R for registered.

Hozzat? [img]smile.gif[/img] .....Ott
post #214 of 229
Thread Starter 

"The fact that this thread now runs 6 pages indicates that somewhere along the way there's a rotting horse carcass."


By your logic, the shorter the thread, the more cogent the discourse? That is certainly a novel viewpoint, though it doesn't make a lot of sense within the context of a web discussion forum.
post #215 of 229
Nolo, unless you want this thread to go 12 pages, you would do well to cease and desist!
post #216 of 229
No. No. Don't quit. Go for it nblno!!
(You crack me up!)
post #217 of 229
NB, I didn't make a "logical conclusion" about anything, so there's not a "logic" behind what I said.

But I do think that 6 pages of rambling about what is "professional" indicates (but does not prove)that the issue is dead and beaten - all positions stated, etc. Agreements to disagree are probably in order.

So, what exactly was the point of your inquiry? I'm not trying to be mean. I honestly couldn't follow it. :
post #218 of 229
post #219 of 229
yeah baby! those ears look pretty aerodynamic.
post #220 of 229
OK, I'm anxiously waiting for the sequel to find out if he leads by tipping the inside leg to move out of the living room or just tips both sides equally? I guess I should also allow for a flat foot option as well.
post #221 of 229
Gonz, the boys at Enron and Arthur Anderson may make an argument for larceny being a learned profession.
post #222 of 229
Thread Starter 
Although I regret adding one more post to this thread, I feel challenged to respond to Gonzo's request for a point to it all. I distilled the conversation, at least to Sitzmark's satisfaction (who had obliquely requested it) many posts ago. The conversation has continued through its own inertia, I guess.

The point, it seems to me, is that we may be professionals in our own estimation, but until we are recognized as professionals by consumers, the corporations which employ us will not recognize us as professionals either. Without public recognition of our value, our profession will continue to be an economic backwater in the capitalist rewards system.
post #223 of 229
No Baloney,

No disrespect to you or the aim of your post, but A point, it seems to me, is that "professional" is a meaningless word and won't support the weight of your premise; namely (as i see it), that "professionalism" (necessarily) connotes integrity, or even "skill." and that such professionalism SHOULD be rewarded BECAUSE it's a "profession." (not intending antagonism here, by the way.)
post #224 of 229
Thread Starter 
Your points are noted, Ryan. I believe we began by asking whether the P in PSIA was pure fluff. I arrived at my conclusion. I invite others to arrive at theirs. Let's bury this beast.
post #225 of 229

yep, i haven't followed thoroughly, so my two cents did constitute a kind of side-swipe.

let's just say "we've arrived."
post #226 of 229
thanks, NB.

I agree completely with ryan's comment. as did ryan, I mean no disrespect. I know several folks who think very highly of you, NB, and I trust their judgments!

you ought to bring the family down to Jim Weiss's ranch for the calf branding party on 6/1. should be a fun time.

Ott -- Yes indeed, replace "Professional" with "certified." That's a whole lot more accurate and less fuzzy. You again show your wisdom!

[ April 24, 2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: gonzostrike ]
post #227 of 229
especially fun for the calves, i'd surmise.

More! Give me moooooooore!

[ April 24, 2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #228 of 229
Thread Starter 
Thanks, guys. I'll leave you to the nut-cuttin'.
post #229 of 229
Whooo Hooo...Rocky Mountain Oysters...gotta cracka?
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