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The Elephant in the Living Room - Page 7

post #181 of 229
Originally posted by nolobolono:
Oh. Then I guess very few apply it.

i am new here but i take it you're a ski instructor. if so, i have to wonder if your lessons are as tedious as your bombastic writing in this thread would imply.
post #182 of 229
I thought being a SSD was like a typical middle management (hour glass type model) i.e. trying to serve the people above while keeping the people below happy.

It's funny how we single out the pros and cons of each others business and see a greener grass. The paperwork Todd talked about in another thread, some people do that everyday. How much is it worth not to do that, how much is it worth to be on the snow instead? Sometimes we strive for the best of all worlds while overlooking the value of our own.


"The beauty of having a low income is that there is not enough money to buy what you don't really need"
post #183 of 229
Hey Nolo Girl,

"...not making things more complicated than they need to be."

"I would call that anti-intellectualism."

I don't follow you? The best and brightest I have ever known in any field have been those who can distill clear, bottom line meaning from all the surrounding clutter and chaos. Surely, you do not consider unbridled, boundless babble to be intellectual, based upon sheer quantity alone?
post #184 of 229
Thread Starter 
Well, around here "intellectualism" is a NAUGHTY word. I will go sit in the corner now.

Bombastic: now there's an intellectual's word! I think I'll put that one in my pocket and keep it. It should work nicely for making sure I get both lips when I Chapstick.
post #185 of 229
Thread Starter 

Then what can we distill from this hefty thread?

1. Professionalism is more than being paid to do a job which requires an educational credential or license. It also is an imperative to continuously improve core competencies in order to better serve the clientele.

2. Most snow sports pros are in the profession because they love the sport and are drawn to share it with others.

3. A business model which would optimize the profitability of the snow sports school would serve #1 and #2 by addressing the pros' desire for self-actualization and to deliver authentic value to their guests, or F squared (where F=Fulfillment).

4. SCSA made good on his threat and called in his reinforcements. Hi Adema, welcome to epicski.

[ April 18, 2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: nolobolono ]
post #186 of 229
Adema- As a member who has enjoyed this forum for a year, and particularly enjoys what nolo has to say, I would first ask you to tone down your rhetoric. I would then ask why you read what nolo has to say if you find it bombastic or tedious?

Please be civil. If you don't agree with something that is said by all means say so.

Please don't be unkind.

Lastly, aren't you a little new to be on the offensive so very early?
post #187 of 229
I thought Sitzmark was the bad one, calling Your Highness, "Girl".
post #188 of 229
Originally posted by SCSA:
You know, I think all this discussion on change really tracks to the "Movement".
I think it does.
would that be the "morning Movement" or afternoon?
post #189 of 229
Thread Starter 
I appreciate your concern for Sitz's breach of protocol, but I must correct you, SCSA: It's not about ME.
post #190 of 229
Excuse me, have to go have a movement.
post #191 of 229
I have read all the above with interest. One thing however struck me when considering supply & demand, & thats price & competition. In Vail quoted prices are;
duration low high
day $435 $485
2 hours $220 $250

while Courcheval 1850 ESF quotes
day $197 $233
2 hours $60 $70
I am not 100% certain I am measuring like for like, however I believe it is close. Plus in addition on a cost of living basis the French price should be discounted by a further 7%. There are a number of competing ski schools in Courcheval 1850 (the three of which I have tried were very good). In France it is customary for the resort school to be owned by the instructors and operate as a co operative. They have their overheads to the national organisation they are affiliated to but otherwise, that's it. The test to qualify in France is stiff, no two ways about it, it is necessary to be highly competent skier to pass. So why the price difference?
post #192 of 229
While Todd has a movement, Nolo understands the writing on the wall and SCSA, dressed in really bad rags, again trys to pull the sword from the stone, Iceman in the shadows brings us the full circle and back to the campfire where Robin sits waiting to muster the troops under VSP, Weems. Ott, Bob, Arc & the other cells of excellence.
Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ April 19, 2002, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: man from oz ]
post #193 of 229
WWe are Ski PROFESSIONALS are we not!

We FULFILL the demands of our clients.

We work on the fringe of corporate demands and set the status of a WAY OF BEING!

We are the standard of PROFESSIONALISM and we are the baseline of investor returns.

As TRUE BELIEVERS we do not take a step backwards.

Our only GOAL is PROFESSIONAL Ski Instruction!

We are on a ROAD less TRAVELLED that is our STRENGTH


Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ April 19, 2002, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: man from oz ]
post #194 of 229
Sorry Nolo and others. I'm from a different time when we really did think of ourselves as "boys" and "girls" and were not much offended at being recognized as such. From now on I'll try to stay
with more currentisms like "yo dude" or "dude person".
post #195 of 229
Also, pretty good "distilling" Nolo Dude Person!
post #196 of 229
Your Highness,

Any conclusions to be made? Anything "sticking"?
post #197 of 229
I have nothing to add, just wanted to have one post in this lengthy thread. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ April 19, 2002, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: JimBobBubba ]
post #198 of 229
jbb. You da man.
post #199 of 229
Reading this thread is like childbirth.

I da woman.

Go Zen.
post #200 of 229
Bonni, does that mean both delight and agony?

Maybe I finally know what childbirth feels like.

post #201 of 229
You are not far off!!

There is one element of this that seems to be missing, or maybe I just didn't see it in all the lofty debates. As a "customer, client, patron, guest, audience member, alien, etc," how do they justify the cost of ski lessons? Who is your target customer? I am guessing that probably 90% of all skiers don't take lessons? (Where's that poll?! Oh wait, it won't do any good here cause we are all saturated with passion for the sport, and they are not reading this forum!!)

I'd go for some lessons, only I just can't justify spending the dough. I need new skis, the house needs a roof, you know, the normal things that suck the lifeblood out of the bank account. If I had lessons, maybe I could break out of this intermediate zone and do something dazzling. But there's an Unreal Plethora of Skiers who weigh that option and think, Hmmm, do I spend the money on an hour or two in lessons or ski an extra day (or two)? I can tell you what I'd do. Who is gonna step up and find a way to tap THAT market? It's huge.

Is that unfair? Probably. Who said life was fair? I earn my money just like you do, and I think I am underpaid, too. But I love my job, and I stay with it. Trade ya.

I find it strange that society has these inconsistencies that just baffle. We pay people to teach us to ski, a hobby enhancer really, and then we give minimum wage to people willing to care for our kids' physical and emotional well-being for huge chunks of time Each Day while Mummy and Daddy are logging in 8-12 hours a day working. I am sure those guys are not eating steak and flying off to destination resorts to play in the snow. If they could, they wouldn't have money for lessons either. Why do they do it? Maybe they just love kids.

SCSA may be right about the McDonalds line of thought. The times they are a changing. Not too many sports offer individual instructors, when you think about it, and what worked in the 60's or whenever, may not be suited to this day's needs.

But what do I know?

Just a peon who skis
post #202 of 229
There are cheap lessons all over the place. In Aspen you can get five friends together and have a private instructor for the whole day for about $90 apiece.

Beginner's packages with lifts, lessons, and gear cost $109 for the day, and next year will cost less with extension days.

We offer advanced classes for $89/day with a class average of 3 people.

Our locals program costs $99 for unlimited sessions throughout the season.

The problem with this industry is that it is known for it's top prices, not its best prices. We are known for our most expensive lift ticket, not our millenium ticket ($49/day on a six day early purchase). Imagine a car dealer saying, "Buy this car. Just $50,000 and down."

That Aspen! So expensive.

Other areas have deals as well.

And I know that some of you don't look at that as cheap, but dammit, we've got to pay our instructors a living wage! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #203 of 229
Of course, one lesson is not really going to help a long term intermediate very much....
post #204 of 229
milesb. I totally disagree. But it depends on the lesson. If the pro knows that it is a one shot deal, she can change the format to include a long term practice plan.
post #205 of 229
I must disagree as well. As a long term intermediate, having a good lesson one morning last year helped me along. It hasn't made me an expert, but it did bring me out of the rut. Now, it will take a lot more lessons & mileage to get me to "expert" level, but I now see that it is possible, and no longer that I'm as good as I'm going to get.

post #206 of 229
I've had many, many long-term intermediates over the years have huge breakthroughs in a single lesson. And since they themselves were often skeptical of such a possibility, when they smash through their habit-barrier they are often just *gushing* with happiness when it happens. It can be embarrising actually, but it is a great thing to see.

At the same time of course, sometimes you cannot make real progress with a 'terminal' intermediate.

Often the trick with such students has very little to do with biomechanical work though, it is often really a psychological hold up.

[ April 22, 2002, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Todd M. ]
post #207 of 229
Yeah, Todd,
People like that need a cranial laxative. (something to get the constipated build up of old sh!t out of their minds, and make room for new things)

post #208 of 229

I've had many, many long-term intermediates over the years have huge breakthroughs in a single lesson. And since they themselves were often skeptical of such a possibility, when they smash through their habit-barrier they are often just *gushing* with happiness when it happens. It can be embarrising actually, but it is a great thing to see.
Quit being embarassed! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Fox, that was yucky gross! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #209 of 229
Originally posted by VailSkiGal:
I pulled out my Webster's to look up the word "professional". Several definitions, but here goes:

"1 a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b: engaged in one of the learned proessions: c: (My favorite) Characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession. 2 a: paraticipating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs."

Seems to me that the "P" in "PSIA" certainly fits into these definitions. By the way, there's nothing about insurance, benefits, salary, or what the value of that "professional" is in any of that mentioned.
We must be careful to distinguish the colloquial use of "professional" -- 2(a) above.

PSIA teachers do not fall into either of the item 1 categories. Research the "learned professions" and don't just assume that learning entitles one to claim a "learned profession."

Classically, the "learned professions" were law and medicine.

Eventually, folks in other lines of work demanded also to be called "professionals" and now we see everyone who earns a $ calling him/herself a "professional." This latter fact is a result of the colloquial definition in 2(a), and distinctly NOT a product of the item 1 definitions.

To me, there's a rather huge difference between being a Professional and having a career. One can make a career of picking pockets, but that doesn't make a pickpocket a Professional - larceny isn't a learned profession.
post #210 of 229
Thread Starter 

Meanings change over time and usage. This is a fact of language.

Colloquialism is "common usage." Would you have us speak Latin?

How much schoolin' does a lawyer have under his belt? I have eight years of higher education and an advanced degree in my "profession."

MBA, CFP, CPA, RN, CNP, EMT--not professionals. Better not tell them.

Why do you pick this particular point of contention?
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