EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Ramp Angle and fore/aft position
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ramp Angle and fore/aft position

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

BTW:  If you are not adverse to raising the toe pieces of the binding, that too will get the hips more forward.

 


A number of people have stated that raising the toe piece (decreasing the net ramp angle of ski, boot, and binding combined) will move the hips forward.  Others have stated the opposite.  I'm not convinced that there is a solid correlation for a general population.  A long time ago I helped my kids with a science experiment.  We tested 4 of us (mom, dad, son, daughter) by first increasing the toe height and then the heel height with the tip and tail of the skis on two different scales.  We each tried to establish a comfortable, natural skiing stance for each measurement and averaged the results over a number of trials.  For 2 of us raising the heel piece moved the center of mass (as measured by the relative weights shown on the scales) forward and for 2 of us it moved it back.

This simple experiment is certainly flawed in that a static stance on flat ground does not simulate the dynamics of skiing.  However, it is enough evidence for me to question a hard relation between ramp angle and the positioning of the center of mass. The underlying assumption is that there is varying response among individuals to a change in ramp angle.

I would love it of someone with video and willing subjects would film a group of subjects skiing the same slope with their regular setup, raised toe, and then raised heel.  I think an experiment like this would be very helpful in illuminating whether there is or is not a solid relationship between ramp angle and fore/aft positioning. Of course, the more subjects filmed the better.
post #2 of 20
Si how was the split made up  ? Did the males follow one and the ladies another  ?  Or was it a mixed result regarding the sexes ?
post #3 of 20
Si, I think there are some who believe the use of "gas pedaling" is a fix that may be beneficial for certain people with limited range of motion in the ankles.  There is a fair amount of debate on the issue and it is more a a boot alignment question.  In any event, its certainly not for everyone, and doing a random study to see the effect of this corrective change on skiers that don't need that correction is going to give some misleading results.  Just as some skier benefit from canting, others couldn't properly use their edges with that setup.  Randomly raising the toes of people that don't need it seems a bit arbitrary.
post #4 of 20
 Si - I've experimented with it quite a bit. If you start with a toe that is too low, raising it will bring the hips forward. If you keep raising it, they start going back.
post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post

Si how was the split made up  ? Did the males follow one and the ladies another  ?  Or was it a mixed result regarding the sexes ?
 

It was a long time ago so I'm a little fuzzy but I think that increasing ramp moved the 2 males forward and the 2 females back.  I didn't want to mention it because of the small sample size.  Thought I'd wait and see what others are saying.
post #6 of 20
Everyone is different. We all have the same number of bones in our feet/legs but the ratio of the lengths of the bones and just how they connect to each other is different for each person. Hence, a ski/boot modification that will benefit one person will be a detriment for another. There are no absolutes in the world of alignment. And to further complicate the matter a change in ramp, delta or forward lean affects the relationship of the other two factors and may require further adjustments in those factors. When anyone starts talking in absolutes, like "All women can benefit from a heal lift." or similar statement, you can be pretty sure that they don't know what they are talking about.

As a quick aside here from personal observation. The best skiers seem to be able to do a full squat in their ski boots without falling over backwards. If the skier can't get all the way down then they will probably benefit from increasing ramp/delta/forward lean. If the skier can squat down and resist being pushed over backward in that positon then they may benefit from a decrease in ramp/delta/forward lean.

fom
Edited by fatoldman - 1/7/10 at 7:53am
post #7 of 20
The RoM activity needs to be seen through the same filter you described so well in the first paragraph. Since proportions and body parts vary we need to stay open to the idea that results may vary according to individuals. Like Si, I would love to see more before and after photos. I've seen some of Annie Black but to be honest the focus was on a taller stance occuring as a result of getting the ramp / delta angle dialed in. This brings up the question of how we respond to the immediate change. Do we automatically adopt new movements that produce a better stance, or does it take a while to re-educate the body and groove those new sensations and movements. I suspect that since the goal is to eventually move these new moves into the sub conscious realm, it takes a while to experiment and find that better stance.
post #8 of 20
What is the best way to experiment with this variable? I have a sense that I could use less ramp/delta angle in my Nordica Doberman Pro 130's because I am getting quad/hip extsensor burn which I did not get in my Dal Kryptons. Same stance - different boot.
Thanks,
David
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
From my personal experience the easiest way is to put temporary shims between the boot and binding at the toe or heel (depending on how you want to change ramp).  I typically use little canting strips I similarly use for testing canting on myself or friends, placing them back to back to form a uniform spacer.  Alternatively you can just use layers of duct tape layered upon each other.  To keep from forgetting them when you remove your boot or losing them during a release you can duct tape them to the bottom of your boot.  Note that this will affect the DIN interface and may change the release.  For my personal use I don't worry about that but please make your own decision about this.
post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post

From my personal experience the easiest way is to put temporary shims between the boot and binding at the toe or heel (depending on how you want to change ramp).  I typically use little canting strips I similarly use for testing canting on myself or friends, placing them back to back to form a uniform spacer.  Alternatively you can just use layers of duct tape layered upon each other.  To keep from forgetting them when you remove your boot or losing them during a release you can duct tape them to the bottom of your boot.  Note that this will affect the DIN interface and may change the release.  For my personal use I don't worry about that but please make your own decision about this.
Si, much obliged. If I go the duct tape route, how many layers should I start with. Or what would be the duct tape equivalent to one shim (assuming there is a standard size).
Thanks
David
post #11 of 20
 Si, these photos were pulled from my DVD series.  In each I attempted to remain center balanced.  On top of the variance in my fore/aft hip location, a big factor is how knee flexion changes.  This makes it, I hope, quite obvious that it can be overdone in both directions.  As has already been said, peoples bodies are different, and thus so are their set-up needs.  It takes a pro to sort it out properly.







post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 Si, these photos were pulled from my DVD series.  In each I attempted to remain center balanced.  On top of the variance in my fore/aft hip location, a big factor is how knee flexion changes.  This makes it, I hope, quite obvious that it can be overdone in both directions.  As has already been said, peoples bodies are different, and thus so are their set-up needs.  It takes a pro to sort it out properly.












 

Hey, Rick, how come you did not show me this in France. I told Cindy I knew you were holding out on me.
David
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post




Hey, Rick, how come you did not show me this in France. I told Cindy I knew you were holding out on me.
David

You were already beating me in the cat track tucking, you didn't need any more advantages.  

Seriously though, I didn't notice any blaring fore/aft stance issues.  Which boots were you in there?  
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post




You were already beating me in the cat track tucking, you didn't need any more advantages.  

Seriously though, I didn't notice any blaring fore/aft stance issues.  Which boots were you in there?  
 

Rick, those were the Kryptons, The ones with the one size too small Intuition liners. I did not want to tell you that I was racing you under a handicap....
Got the Doberman 130's this fall. Wonderful boot fit and feel (Cindy says it fixed my A frame - along with some Aline footbeds). But major quad burn from stance disruption - I think. Have been really trying to get out of the crouch position and stand up for healthier stance. But I think the Doberman's have a considerably greater forward cuff than the Krypts and maybe ramp as well. I am sure there is a solution and will get to my boot guy. By the way, pm me if you have any details on your March thang.
Warm regards,
David
post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deliberate1 View Post



Si, much obliged. If I go the duct tape route, how many layers should I start with. Or what would be the duct tape equivalent to one shim (assuming there is a standard size).
Thanks
David

 

I'm not expert, just an experimenter.  The shims I have under my wife's heels currently are about 3/16".  Maybe a good start would be to make 4 1/8" shims and play with one on each boot and then 2 to get a feel for it.
post #16 of 20
I just went back and checked the camp video, and your fore/aft stance did indeed look fine, so considering what you're experiencing now in the new boots chances are good you're suspicions are on target about the stance issue.  Yes, do go see your bootfitter and get that sorted.  

I pulled a couple stills of your skiing from the camp video.  You have a nice fore/aft stance and balance in them.  I will post them up here so you can use for comparison if you'd like.   

I'll let you know the details of the Colorado camp soon.  Shooting for the end of March somewhere in Summit County.  Currently working out the best deal on a venue.  
post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post




I'm not expert, just an experimenter.  The shims I have under my wife's heels currently are about 3/16".  Maybe a good start would be to make 4 1/8" shims and play with one on each boot and then 2 to get a feel for it.
 

Will do. Much obliged.
David
post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

...  This makes it, I hope, quite obvious that it can be overdone in both directions.  As has already been said, peoples bodies are different, and thus so are their set-up needs.  It takes a pro to sort it out properly.


 

I agree that this is not a simple thing to determine total ramp (ski, binding, and boot) and forward lean (not to mention binding position!) to get optimized for/aft balance and control.  Unfortunately I think that going with a pro isn't always the way to go.  Here are my requirements for a pro which is why I play with my own alignment.

The alignment specialist:
needs be available to you over a solid period of time (multiple days or weeks)
should be available for on snow evaluation
should have a validated approach and a good deal of experience
needs to be flexible enough to try other things when their approach doesn't work (rules out a few here!)
must have the necessary technical skills to make all necessary adjustment to the boots
needs to be affordable.

As a ski coach I'm surprised you don't recommend experienced skiers work on their own alignment.  Playing with alignment helps you understand the relationship of ski stance and movements to alignment, and can open up doors to better movements even without an alignment modification.  It also builds perceptual skills about what's happening down below the waist all the way to the snow/ski interactions. 

I will be the first to say that it unlikely that a skier will be able to optimize their own setup.  Without the technical skills, tools, and materials to adjust alignment and the experience to competently understand the interactions between different alignment components it is tough to nail it down.  However, I would say that such attempts can result in improved performance and at the very least prepare you to work with an alignment specialist to get it truly optimized. 
post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Post script:  I'm now going skiing after having played a little bit with forward lean and cuff canting (not boot sole canting).  I know all the adages about just centering the cuff on the lower leg but I made a little adjustment based on the placement of a folded map inside of my boot between shell and lining yesterday.  It turns out the new position is just as good for centering as was previously it's just slightly to the other side of center.  The reason I am playing with this a bit is that as a result of a hip replacement on each side, I have different ranges for internal and external rotation between the two hips.  We'll see if yesterday's perceptions bear out.  If not, it's very easy to put it back where it was.  Also, playing with this has led to some ideas about tweaking movement patterns with the left on the downhill/outside (right turns).

One more comment:  I know that I could use boot sole canting.  Personally I try to avoid this because of expense, non-transferability, and the inability to easly make further modification.  Now that I am retired and full-time skier I may go that route but first I want to see where I can end up without it.  The main thing that has given me hope is the use of some of Mosh's interior shim cants to achieve better one footed dynamic balance.  Without that I would have gone straight to boot sole canting as I have previously done.  I have achieved quite satisfactory results in the alignment of my right foot/boot/ski.  If I can come close to matching it on the left I'll be satisfied and have an approach that I can possible transfer from boot to boot on my own.  BTW, my right side is the side that was most out of alignment (needed the biggest changes)!
post #20 of 20
 Si, my "go with a pro" comment was penned for the general reader here.  Most don't have a full understanding of all the factors involved in proper set-up, and how messing with one can affect the others.  It's similar to the photography exposure triangle.  But for those who do have a full enough knowledge base to experiment with, and the skiing skills to really feel and understand the outcomes of the alterations, then by all means have at it.  

And I do agree that learning about this stuff can be a valuable tool in understanding and achieving higher forms of skiing.  Not absolutely necessary, but potentially helpful.  

And for sure, all bootfitters are not created equally.  I only have a couple I would personally recommend.  Your list of what to look for in one is good. 
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Ramp Angle and fore/aft position