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Tuning Straight Skis

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
 what is the best way to sharpen edges on a straight ski. i know on a shaped ski you want the whole edge to be nice and sharp. is it the same on a straight ski. i heard you have to detune the tips and tails. if so. how much do you detune and what is the advantage of detuning.

Flame Suit On.

i know there are some very anti-straight skiers out there. so let me inform you of my reasons. i am almost 18, and have skied on shaped skis my whole life. i just bought a pair of gently, (very gently) used Rossy's. very nice ski. 185 in length, haven't got the other demensions yet. and i would like to learn to ski them because i want to and no other reason. im curious and i enjoy challenges. i know that shaped skis are more advances in every way. im doing this because i want to and because i feel that it will improve my shaped ski skiing, akin to training on a single speed fixed gear bike.
post #2 of 17
post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 
 i saw that thread before i posted this. frankly, it didn't answer my question, only served to confuse me more, and it turned into a Straight vs Shaped ski thread.

hence my flame suit comment.
post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoryv022 View Post

im doing this because i want to and because i feel that it will improve my shaped ski skiing, akin to training on a single speed fixed gear bike.
 


Hey Gregoryv022,

I cycle and ski.  (just not at the same time, yuk yuk) ... anyway ... a few clarifications:

single speed bikes and fixed gear bikes are different.  single speeds can coast and pedal backwards ... fixed gears are always in forward motion, unless completely stopped.  fixed gear bikes do improve pedaling ... in fact all pro cyclists spend time on a fixed gear bike.

the same is not true for straight skis.  kids in race (ski) academies do not spend time skiing straight skis.  a coach might compare/contrast the skis and someone might ski a straight ski for comparison, or, as you said, novelty, but not as a means of improving skills.  MANY people can attest to having had to break the "straight ski" habits when making the shift to shaped skis.

good luck and have fun!
post #5 of 17
*insert binding disclaimer here: the bindings are probably cr@p and shouldn't be used*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoryv022 View Post

 i heard you have to detune the tips and tails. if so. how much do you detune and what is the advantage of detuning.

Take an arkansas stone to the ski hill with you on a hardpack day and find out what works for you -on that ski-.     If you notice 'grabbing' or 'catching' at the tip or tail when you don't want the edge to catch, use the stone to dull another finger's width or so,  mark that on the ski.    Do both the big toe and little toe edges.

IMO, that ski is quite likely short for your size and weight and you won't need to detune much at all.   If you're detuning more than ~4" from tip and from tail on a 185cm, your sharpening is probably wrong and you left a burr on.

*insert binding disclaimer here: the bindings are probably cr@p and should _not_ be relied on*
post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye View Post





Hey Gregoryv022,

I cycle and ski.  (just not at the same time, yuk yuk) ... anyway ... a few clarifications:

single speed bikes and fixed gear bikes are different.  single speeds can coast and pedal backwards ... fixed gears are always in forward motion, unless completely stopped.  fixed gear bikes do improve pedaling ... in fact all pro cyclists spend time on a fixed gear bike.

the same is not true for straight skis.  kids in race (ski) academies do not spend time skiing straight skis.  a coach might compare/contrast the skis and someone might ski a straight ski for comparison, or, as you said, novelty, but not as a means of improving skills.  MANY people can attest to having had to break the "straight ski" habits when making the shift to shaped skis.

good luck and have fun!




Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

*insert binding disclaimer here: the bindings are probably cr@p and shouldn't be used*
 


Take an arkansas stone to the ski hill with you on a hardpack day and find out what works for you -on that ski-.     If you notice 'grabbing' or 'catching' at the tip or tail when you don't want the edge to catch, use the stone to dull another finger's width or so,  mark that on the ski.    Do both the big toe and little toe edges.

IMO, that ski is quite likely short for your size and weight and you won't need to detune much at all.   If you're detuning more than ~4" from tip and from tail on a 185cm, your sharpening is probably wrong and you left a burr on.

*insert binding disclaimer here: the bindings are probably cr@p and should _not_ be relied on*
 


 klkaye:

i am aware of the differenced of a single speed and fixed gear bikes. i bike also and build my own fixed gear from an old lightspeed frame. (Titanium frame, $60 = WIN)

as for the training on straight skis, if that is not viable or even usefull, then i wont consider it training. just recreation. and to be able to say i can.




comprex:

*binding disclaimer. i have taken that into account. the binding are Marker M38's. ill worry about that later.*

as for my size and weight, im 5'11" and weigh in at 121 lbs. 185's should be fine if im not mistaken.

as for the edges, i have not sharpened them yet, and when i do, it will be machine sharpened so there should be no burrs.. i work in a ski shop so i have free access to all the proffesional equipment. grinders, by Grindrite, and edger, waxer, and binding tester by Winterstieger.(sp) i plan to test the bindings before using them and then if need be get a good cheaper pair.. speaking of sharpening, what are good edge angles for straight skis if there are any different from shaped.
post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
klkaye:

i bike and ski also and am aware of the definition of a fixed gear bike. i built a fixed gear out of an old lightspeed frame.

if not for training use, then just recreation and retro days.

Comprex:

i have thought about the bindings. i work at a ski shop so ill be able to professionally test them before even contemplating using them. 

as for the edges, there wont be any burrs because ill edge them with the edging machine. i have no idea what an Arkansas stone is, but i do have a bastard file which works very for detuning. (ive done snowboards before)

as for the lenght, i am 5'11" and 120 lbs. 185's should be fine if im not mistaken. (which i could be)

anyway thanks for not turning this into a straight vs shaped thread. both of you and everyone else who responds
post #8 of 17
If you are used to skiing current ski models with the edge sharp from tip to tail, and you like this tuning configuration, then you should be comfortable skiing an older straight ski tuned the same way.

If you find yourself falling onto your inside ski, you have two choices:

1) Detune tips & tails so that you can more easily get the outside ski back under your body.

2) Correct your lateral balance.

Developing racers go through option (2) every time they switch from SL to GS skis.  By the time they are at K2 level (age 13/14), this correction takes just a few turns.

The choices are actually the same whether you're on shaped or straight skis.  It is becoming more common to encourage even intermediate level skiers to work on lateral balance and use the whole edge of the ski, so the detuning option is not the automatic first choice that it was with straight skis.
post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoryv022 View Post
what are good edge angles for straight skis if there are any different from shaped.

0/0 or 1/1,  I'd go with 1/1

If you -do- do a remount, these would be a good way test Ball-of-Foot/Center Running surface theories.

Assuming you have any, of course.
post #10 of 17
I'm going to second Moulmunghers comment.  I ski older skis, and have skied shaped as well.  I think what you want to do is great.  It is a different way of skiing.  Learn to do it!  You can do it!

One thing I like about a straighter, narrower ski is the way one can really ski the old parallel style keeping the knees, ad ankles locked.  Keeping weight even on both skis.  It's a ton of fun!

I also tune skis, and you do it the same.  I advocate not to de-tune any ski.  If the tip, and tail are not sharp, the ski won't flex as well, and you won't carve as well.  The thing to do is be sure you have a 1 degree base bevel from tip to tail.  

Some people put a 1.5 or 2 degree at tip, and tail, while the rest is at 1 degree, but that is a big pain in the you know what!

Good luck, and I hope that helps you decide what to do.

One more thing  "5'11" and 120 lbs. 185's should be fine if im not mistaken."    I'm about the same as you just a little shorter, and I go from 185, to 195's  and it's no problem.  You can do it.  Wax the heck out of them though, because they are more than likely dry.  If you dig them, then go get a grind on them, and prep them again.
post #11 of 17
I say razor sharp tip to tail, 0.5 base, 3 side.  Works for me.

Mind you, if you like to pivot your skis without decambering them, instead of bending them into a curve and carving with them, you might want to go to a 1,3 set up, and if you're a little spastic , you might want to detune a foot or so from the tips and six inches off the tails; that way the tips and tails won't have too much force to confound you with when you mishandle them and will be able to put up less of a fight when you steer them where they don't want to go.

Just one tip for "straight" skis on hardpack, you might sometimes have to put your weight on the tips and bend them a bit before you tip them.  Other than that it's pretty much the same drill - tip to turn and if they're not turning, go faster and tip more.
post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

I'm going to second Moulmunghers comment.  I ski older skis, and have skied shaped as well.  I think what you want to do is great.  It is a different way of skiing.  Learn to do it!  You can do it!

One thing I like about a straighter, narrower ski is the way one can really ski the old parallel style keeping the knees, ad ankles locked.  Keeping weight even on both skis.  It's a ton of fun!

I also tune skis, and you do it the same.  I advocate not to de-tune any ski.  If the tip, and tail are not sharp, the ski won't flex as well, and you won't carve as well.  The thing to do is be sure you have a 1 degree base bevel from tip to tail.  

Some people put a 1.5 or 2 degree at tip, and tail, while the rest is at 1 degree, but that is a big pain in the you know what!

Good luck, and I hope that helps you decide what to do.

One more thing  "5'11" and 120 lbs. 185's should be fine if im not mistaken."    I'm about the same as you just a little shorter, and I go from 185, to 195's  and it's no problem.  You can do it.  Wax the heck out of them though, because they are more than likely dry.  If you dig them, then go get a grind on them, and prep them again.
Well, here's what happened. I took them to the shop and had them stone ground before even going out on them. Someone - either the shop before or me in a spastic tuning fit years ago had put some sort of god awful 2+ degree base edge on them. I had them done at 1 degree even though I was cringing but I just didn't have the time to do it and meet Rossi Smash the next day with tuned skis ready to go. I didn't have him detune the tips and tails.

The interesting thing was the guy who did them was working in a different shop but was the same guy who did them roughly ten years ago. Hmmm, come to think of it, I used to argue with that shop later with early shaped skis about why they put 2 degree base bevels on junior skis.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I say razor sharp tip to tail, 0.5 base, 3 side.  Works for me.

Mind you, if you like to pivot your skis without decambering them, instead of bending them into a curve and carving with them, you might want to go to a 1,3 set up, and if you're a little spastic , you might want to detune a foot or so from the tips and six inches off the tails; that way the tips and tails won't have too much force to confound you with when you mishandle them and will be able to put up less of a fight when you steer them where they don't want to go.

Just one tip for "straight" skis on hardpack, you might sometimes have to put your weight on the tips and bend them a bit before you tip them.  Other than that it's pretty much the same drill - tip to turn and if they're not turning, go faster and tip more.
Well I was definitely a little spastic! This was the first day on snow afterall...I ended up skiing a fair amount of heavy powder on trails that were sort of closed. I confess at lunch I couldn't take the grabbiness of the tips and "detuned" them with an aluminum ski pole I borrowed at the rental area while no one else but Arewolf was looking. (Clearly my finest hour with the straights)

I'm not sure how much difference it made because after that is when we skied the not so soft soft stuff. Note that quads were a burnin' on the low pitch trail with heavy snow with sitting back. It ain't easy chasing the youngsters on their fat potato chip skis in heavy snow.
I definitely needed more time to dial in the technique, but was forced the next day by self preservation and keeping up with these people of the new century to get the shapes out. (Remember the commercial,"How do you spell relief?"...)

Bend before tipping - now that might have helped. Now, have you run that by Harald?
post #13 of 17
I'm confused now.  Is this Gregory on Tog's account?  

One thing about detuning is it can be done right on the hill, as you stated.   A gummy stone, or a med. diamond stone would be better, but doing it with a ski pole, now that's innovation!   Necessity is the mother of invention!  Rock on!

Although I love my skinny straights, they do suck in pow, and crud.  On groom, well it's like heaven to me!
post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
 Umm Tog. i don't know you. but this is kinda a thread having to do with my skis. your post was not even relevent to my question

Jacques, no, Tog and i are two very different people.

Back to my issue.

so now that the grinder at my shop has a new pump, im going to go in and to a complete tune on the skis. Im going to go with about a 0.5 base and a 2 side edge angle. something thats grabby but not to much so. i want to control the skis and not vice versa.

Mogul Muncher

"If you find yourself falling onto your inside ski, you have two choices:

1) Detune tips & tails so that you can more easily get the outside ski back under your body.

2) Correct your lateral balance."

can you clarify what you mean by correct my lateral balance. Ive never heard that term before. and how do i "correct" it.

as for the bindings, they do not currently fit my boot. i just got a new pair of Lange World Cup 130's and they are too long. so i have to get them remounted. should i get a cheaper pair of new binding or just remount the old.

thanks for all your help so far.
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Bend before tipping - now that might have helped. Now, have you run that by Harald?
 
No, but Harald doesn't check with me before handing out his skiing advice, so I guess we're even.

It is a tipped and curved ski that best makes you turn, old-style or new style.
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregoryv022 View Post

 
can you clarify what you mean by correct my lateral balance. Ive never heard that term before. and how do i "correct" it.

 

Good lateral (side to side) balance is working on the outside (downhill) ski. 

Losing lateral balance means more weight has moved over the inside ski.

Skiers who feel the outside ski hooking are usually feeling the result of too much weight on the inside ski, and not enough on the outside ski.  With the outside ski somewhat unweighted, the ski doesn't track into the turn as desired, it goes more straight and to the outside.  The skier feels the tip hooking the ski to the outside.  What you'll often see in this scenario is ski tips diverging relative to the tails.  A minor variation to this which catches even advanced skiers sometimes is getting on to the new ski a little too early in the transition to the next turn.  The net result is essentially the same. 

Detuning the ski can help this situation because it will allow the shovel to drag along more easily, still relatively parallel to the inside ski, and even if the skier is mostly weighted on the inside ski.  This is the low-performance fix.

The high-performance fix is correcting lateral balance, which means getting most of your weight back to the outside ski.  Easily said, not as easily achieved.  There are many tactics & drills that can help, such as shifting your shoulders towards the outside ski, touching a hand to the knee of your outside leg, dragging the outside ski pole, and lifting the inside ski during a turn.  It will help to have someone watching you, but the outside pole drag and inside ski lift will give you immediate feedback even if you're practising on your own.
post #17 of 17
Thread Starter 
 mogulmuncher:

thanks for the clarifications. based on that, i have good technique. when i started skiing my dad taught me the Stem Christie. that solved that. thanks for you help
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