New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Hips over feet? - Page 4

post #91 of 97
Sorry you can't make it SB, I hope Greg allows me to record his presentation. If so I may be able to share that with you.
Enjoy the weekend.
JASP
post #92 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Let me provide some prospective on the Ligety montage Tog posted.  



The nature of the course set in this photo is dictating that the turns apex for the first gate is actually above the gate.  That's fairly clear to see by observing that in image 2 his skis are already beginning to turn out of the falline, and he's already beginning his flexion into a retraction transition.  Before that, in image 1, his hips are above his outside foot.  

You must look at the relationship between the pelvis and the outside foot to have an accurate understanding of the hips to feet relationship, because the outside foot is where the skier is laterally balanced.  In images 2-6 he is executing his retraction transition.  Retractions require an intense flexing of the knees, which puts the hips well behind the feet.  That pelvic position is clear to see through these transition images 2-6.  
 

I used to use hips for synonym for pelvis until I was corrected by a doctor. For this discussion pelvis is much clearer.
Well, we could just as easily say, "Get your knees up and let your hips fall back!" as opposed to "Get Forward", no? Clearly in a retraction turn the hips are behind the feet. We can choose to ignore this, as is doesn't support "hips over the feet", but in terms of total time, Ligety's pelvis is behind his outside foot more than in front of it no? I get that the part of the turn with the most forces his pelvis is over or in front of his outside foot - but getting there requires a wide range.
To get where he is in the last frame, he really has to start moving in the 3rd frame. (from left)

In image 7 he's rolling on edge, engaging the new turn, and beginning to lengthen his outside leg by extending his outside knee.  Though this camera angle does not allow you to see it, by images 8-9 his outside leg is long and his hips have recovered to a position over his outside foot.  As I said, it's hard to see here, but if you observe the amount of tip lead he has in images 8-9 you can get a better idea of the relationship of his pelvis and more rearward located outside foot.  

Here are a couple more montages that provide a better view of the relationship of the pelvis to the outside foot at the turns apex.



The above montage is of Ted in a GS turn.  Notice here he has abandoned the retraction transition and has employed a cross over variety transition.  This is common in GS, where the need for a fast transition is not as great as it is in slalom.  Cross over provides a better connection with the snow through the transition (less float), which provides better feel of edge engagement and therefor a cleaner initiation.  

Now look at what Ted does with his hips.  Notice between image 4 and 5 how he extends his new outside (uphill) knee, and thereby brings his pelvis up over his new outside foot for the initiation of the new turn.  At image 6 his outside leg has already reached full functional extension, and at image 7 at the apex of the turn, at maximum edge angle, he has a long and strong outside leg, with his pelvis over outside foot.
 


The movement he has to do to get himself "up and over" is really starting  just before the 4th frame - before the turn is even finished. Could we not say that he's getting the body downhill before the skis? Does this even relate to "hips over feet"? Yes, the ultimate goal is to get "long and strong" with outside of pelvis in front of the foot, but to do that you have to let the skis get away and the pelvis will be behind the feet for some time.

Here we're also exposing another myth - that there's no "up" in modern turns.
Plus, thank god for turns like these. Do we have to see endless videos of free skiing "racers" making endless retraction turns on a 50 yard wide trail and nary a pole in sight? As if it's "wrong" or impossible to make an Inside Leg Extension turn - even in powder.

Here's another:



Here's Ted again.  Observe the transition between the blue and red gate.  We'll call the image where Ted is right next to the blue gate image 1.  Between image 1 and 2 is where the transition starts.  Look how much Ted extends his inside leg between images 1-4.  In doing that he has moved his pelvis up over his new outside (uphill) foot significantly, all before he has even reached edge angle neutral.   By image 6, still well above the turns apex, he has already reached full functional outside leg extension, with his pelvis in front of his business foot (outside foot).  Remember, the forward lean in a ski boot means a long strong outside leg also means a pelvis above or in front of the foot.  

Ok, so between your images 1 and 2 - at the blue gate, he has started his move to get to the other side. (Hey Bob! - couldn't we call this move "Foragonal"?!) The extension is getting his body down the hill - esp. since in the coming float phase you can't effect a body move downhill - there's nothing to push on. You can continue it and extend new outside leg for ski/snow contact.
If we go back to frame 4 from the left of the image, his skis are off the snow! Clearly he's in float phase, pelvis well behind feet. Somewhere after frame 3 he's started the movement to get his body downhill, release the skis, and let the feet go forward.

Maybe the problem comes from an interpretation that if one lets the skis go at transition, that means that no muscular movements are required.  Clearly Ligety has to use a lot of muscle force to maintain his position at the bottom of the turn and then to get his body moving downhill. But what does that have to do with "hips over feet"?

Will we always see the pelvis directly over the foot at the turns apex?  No.  Skiing is a dynamic sport, and different situations may require creativity in technical applications.  Great skiing is characterized by the ability to adapt and adjust to need, and also the ability to vary what you do, just for the fun of it.  Building a broad skill base involves developing the ability to venture comfortably into various ways of executing a turn.  As a general rule though, in an arc to arc turn, achieving a long and strong outside leg with pelvis over feet before reaching the turns apex represents the strongest and best balanced stance for dealing with the forces that impact the body at that highest force level period of the turn.  For skiers who suffer from perpetual hips and balance aft at all phases of a turn syndrome, which constitutes a good portion of the recreational skier population, aspiring to that long and strong apex stance can be an important enhancement to their skiing.  

And to those who think the cross over transition is old school, that retraction is the new "correct", you only need to look at the montages I've posted above, and how much extension of the new outside leg is happening before edge angle neutral, to realize it's just not true. Retraction is gaining a faddish following of late, but it's not the only transition of value in modern technique, and certainly not the only transition the best skiers in the world are using.  For the skier struggling to get out of the back seat, and to get their outside leg long and strong, going back to the cross over transition is a very effective way to break out of their "sitting on the toilet" rut, and learn this more efficient turning approach.  

Yeah!
What's up with the "I ski powder on 125mm skis and can only make a retraction turn" business? People aren't doing 50mph in Alaska doing freakin' retraction turns all the time. Plus, you can make an extension turn in powder on skinny skis.
<rant off>
post #93 of 97
Tog, the depth of your technical explorations are impressive.  It's going to serve you and your students well.  I'm a bit pressed for time, but you're deserved of a response, so I'll address a few of your comments/questions.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Well, we could just as easily say, "Get your knees up and let your hips fall back!" as opposed to "Get Forward", no? 

Sure.  It's OK to use whatever suggestion or visual that works to get the message across to the student, as long as we don't stray so far from technical accuracy that it has the potential to become an element of confusion down the road.  Sometimes, in their effort to comprehend, a student will self devise a way of envisioning a concept that works for them.  It's cool when that happens, and we need to remain open enough to recognize and encourage it.  It can even add to our own repertoire of descriptors for future students.  Student and teacher can both grow.  



Quote:
Clearly in a retraction turn the hips are behind the feet. We can choose to ignore this, as is doesn't support "hips over the feet", but in terms of total time, Ligety's pelvis is behind his outside foot more than in front of it no?

In your Ligety montage, hips are definitely behind feet most of the time.  In retraction turns they have to be aft through a good portion of the transition. When the knees are flexed they have no where else to go, and in this montage the majority of the images are part of a retraction transition.  

I mentioned it before, but keep in mind, the course set in this montage is distorting perception of what's happening.  I believe the red gate to be a through gate.  In other words, it's a continuation of the prior blue gate turn.  As such, the apex of the turn is above the red gate, so the majority of what we are seeing here is a transition.  

In well executed World Cup racing turns the comparison time of hips behind feet and hips over feet will vary, depending on whether the retracted transition is pivoted or arc to arc.  In arc to arc the racer generally executes an extension of the new outside leg early during the top of the turn, and a longer period of time is spent with hips over feet.  When pivoting there is no top of the turn, and hips over feet occurs during a quick moment of reengagement and sting that occurs at the falline, shortlhy followed by a beginning of the next retraction.  

Quote:
I get that the part of the turn with the most forces his pelvis is over or in front of his outside foot - but getting there requires a wide range.To get where he is in the last frame, he really has to start moving in the 3rd frame. (from left)

Absolutely!  Executing a turn on skis is not a activity done in a static state.  This is why it's so important to develop in students an ability to perform across a wide range of balance, rotary and flexion/extension movements.  It opens the door to all dynamic possibilities.  It's the antithesis of golf cart skiing.  I'd even go further than you did and declare that his retraction transition was begun between image 1-2. Again, it's evidence that the apex was well above the red gate.

I'll continue when I can.  Got to get back to work on some Your Ski Coach website content development.   
post #94 of 97
Thread Starter 

 I sort of hate to bump this thread, but here we are ...

I decided to wait and consider starting from scratch, so I didn't see Greg until today. We looked at tweaking the old boots, but there were too many things wrong, so I am (almost) all new. I have a bright orange pair of Tecnica Infernos with some heel lifts and stuff to build up the short right leg. Same footbeds. I can feel my toes again, my right ski is flat, and I now understand what you meant by recentering the hips. The boots may be a touch stiff (130s), but I will ski them a few more times to make sure. 

Thanks all for the suggestions and other help. :-)
 


Edited by segbrown - 11/22/10 at 4:06pm
post #95 of 97

Hi, I am glad to hear you found Greg so helpful. Now the fun really begins. New boots open up the opportunity to make adjustments in our habitual movement patterns. In some cases they almost demand we make some adjustments just to acheive the same outcomes we found so easy on our old equipment.

post #96 of 97


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

 I sort of hate to bump this thread, but here we are ...

I decided to wait and consider starting from scratch, so I didn't see Greg until today. We looked at tweaking the old boots, but there were too many things wrong, so I am (almost) all new. I have a bright orange pair of Tecnica Infernos with some heel lifts and stuff to build up the short right leg. Same footbeds. I can feel my toes again, my right ski is flat, and I now understand what you meant by recentering the hips. The boots may be a touch stiff (130s), but I will ski them a few more times to make sure. 

Thanks all for the suggestions and other help. :-)
 

Well what fun! Here I haven't been on epic for quite awhile and this thread pops up. It's been a good review. For one thing, having been out of discussion  for awhile I'm amazed at how into it I am when I'm into it but when you're out it's a distant world. Kind of like at the beginning of the year I'm not quite certain I still know how to ski till I do it. Thanks for bringing it back segbrown.

 

Anyway, clearly there was something wrong after all!  I applaud you for going through the new boot odyssey. I'm in need of the same and I dread it more than the dentist. I don't really mind the dentist that much, at least I know once the blindingly irritating drilling is over I'll be in better shape. With boots one never really knows. I could go through all that and end up worse. Imagine if sky diving had such uncertainties, not many would do it! eek.gif

 

Also, hey I skied with you at A Basin in May and this issue never came up as far as I remember, did it?? We certainly didn't dwell on it. Real skiing is often far removed from internet discussions. (Though I think I forgot about the discussion!!? rolleyes.gif) Those days at the Basin were definitely some of the best late skiing I've ever done. That was a lot of fun!  beercheer.gif
 

post #97 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


 

Also, hey I skied with you at A Basin in May and this issue never came up as far as I remember, did it?? We certainly didn't dwell on it. Real skiing is often far removed from internet discussions. (Though I think I forgot about the discussion!!? rolleyes.gif) Those days at the Basin were definitely some of the best late skiing I've ever done. That was a lot of fun!  beercheer.gif
 


Of course it didn't, we were skiing! And yes, we had a lovely late season in CO ... didn't quite make up for the rest of the year, but almost. And now, wow, early season has been spectacular.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching