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Skier Responsibility - Page 4

post #91 of 112
Thread Starter 
 
post #92 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by iWill View Post
The need for a term like "shaped skis" existed when many people were still on "straight skis". Very few people are anymore....at least on the antiques. The problem with the term is that the variety of "shapes" now available grows every year. When you used the term, it could be assumed you meant a short radius carving ski.
Those are a lot of different "shapes".
 

Actually, in the context of the skis not tracking in a straight line, I really was referring to the difference between a ski made in the last 10 years and a ski from the 80s. My understanding is that old straight-esque (apparently they're not even straight?) skis don't chatter or want to wobble to and fro. So if there is a better turn to refer to more current shaped skis in contrast with 20 year-old straight-ish skis, I'd love to know. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post



False, time wasted by making turns or otherwise resisting the force of gravity is lost forever. It's like a hole in your heart that will never be filled.

Hysterical! 


Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

Most skiers when they straightline are unconsciously riding their big toe edges giving themselves a solid track, rails. It requires a conscious effort to flatten your skis in a tuck, it usually requires the knees to be forced apart so they are over the middle of the skis, not over the inside edges. When you do get on flat skis, they will tend to wander, this is called gliding when a DH racer is doing it. It feels a little scary, but fun, and you can always engage edges when you need more control and less of the free float.

If your skis are perfectly flat on hard packed snow, they will go straight downhill regardless of where they are pointed. You give up directional control in exchange for speed.

Thanks. This is what I was wondering. Seems like riding your inside edges would keep you straight-ish with decent stability, though I imagine the skier's basically restisting the ski's inclination to turn--almost like a low-angle snowplough... may be fun to play with them like this.

The glide sounds like the transition phase in a turn. 

When straightlining down hardpack, I do still feel the skis grip to the left and right when fully flat. Perhaps the bevel of the edges is affecting this. That said, is a flat ski faster than a railed ski? Assuming the flat ski isn't actually skidding around or otherwise brushing speed and that the railed ski is a perfect carve also without any skid, with both ski directions initiated at the same speed...
post #93 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post




Actually, in the context of the skis not tracking in a straight line, I really was referring to the difference between a ski made in the last 10 years and a ski from the 80s. My understanding is that old straight-esque (apparently they're not even straight?) skis don't chatter or want to wobble to and fro. So if there is a better turn to refer to more current shaped skis in contrast with 20 year-old straight-ish skis, I'd love to know. 



Hysterical! 



Thanks. This is what I was wondering. Seems like riding your inside edges would keep you straight-ish with decent stability, though I imagine the skier's basically restisting the ski's inclination to turn--almost like a low-angle snowplough... may be fun to play with them like this.

The glide sounds like the transition phase in a turn. 

When straightlining down hardpack, I do still feel the skis grip to the left and right when fully flat. Perhaps the bevel of the edges is affecting this. That said, is a flat ski faster than a railed ski? Assuming the flat ski isn't actually skidding around or otherwise brushing speed and that the railed ski is a perfect carve also without any skid, with both ski directions initiated at the same speed...

A racer really needs to address this, but I'll open the subject. Putting aside speed as the time it takes to get down a section of hill, and referring to speed as the actual speed across the snow, I believe that a railed arcing ski with acceleration out of the turn is faster than a ski just falling with gravity. The ski with high energy and rebound produces speed when skied from the tip through the tail in each turn. I can't really reconcile that a downhill or super G skier is of course going faster than a GS skier accelerating out of each turn. I think there is a control to the comparison that I am not defining well.

racers, want to clean up my monologue? engineers?

I can say that my 195cm Atomic Arc RS's (AKA Red Sleds) are much faster and more stable in a schuss than any of my modern all mountain skis. The length of the edge, the minimal sidecut make for fast schuss, traverse, skating, and arcing huge radius turns. Of what I own, if I were racing for pink slips, that's the ski I'd take out, no doubt.
post #94 of 112
I find my 13-m Fischer WC SCs go faster when I alternate edges and make nearly 13 m turns right and left as quickly as possible than when I try and run them flat.  After a certain speed though, I can't keep up and have to run them flat.  They do want to wobble a bit beyond that point, but it's not really a problem once you get used to it.

I never noticed any problem running my old-style Super-Gs flat.

Aerodynamics seem to me to make more of a difference in top speed than sidecut, at least on hard snow.
post #95 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
Thanks. This is what I was wondering. Seems like riding your inside edges would keep you straight-ish with decent stability, though I imagine the skier's basically restisting the ski's inclination to turn--almost like a low-angle snowplough... may be fun to play with them like this.

The glide sounds like the transition phase in a turn. 

When straightlining down hardpack, I do still feel the skis grip to the left and right when fully flat. Perhaps the bevel of the edges is affecting this. That said, is a flat ski faster than a railed ski? Assuming the flat ski isn't actually skidding around or otherwise brushing speed and that the railed ski is a perfect carve also without any skid, with both ski directions initiated at the same speed...

Yes, most guys 'tucking' are doing snowplow with parallel skis! The cuff of your boots are probably canted a degree or two out, so it will require a bowlegged stance to get them really flat. Standing in a natural stance most likely will have you slightly on your big toe edges. I did not realize this for years until I noticed the race announcers talking about gliding and you can see the downhillers floating around on the flat sections even though they have long skis without a lot of sidecut. Notice how wide apart their knees are.

If you feel the edges gripping left and right, you are not on fully flat skis, although you think you are. Go play with it on a catwalk sometime, you'll see what I mean.

Properly waxed, a flat ski is faster than an edged one. Racers only engage enough edge to make the gates (stay on their line, actually, which is dictated by the gates).
Edited by telerod15 - 1/6/10 at 5:35am
post #96 of 112
delete
post #97 of 112
Just announced today at the Consumer Electronic Show, a $249 pocket radar gun  Now ski patrol can make sure you are responsible.   I have no idea what that means.  You can buy one to see who in your group can go the fastest.  Snowboarders don't have a chance to beat the skiers. 
post #98 of 112
Wow!  This thread has morphed from a lambasting of the OP for skiing too fast/irresponsibly to a discussion of how to get the most speed out of your skis.  I've got whiplash.
post #99 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylrwnzl View Post

 


+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post

Wow!  This thread has morphed from a lambasting of the OP for skiing too fast/irresponsibly to a discussion of how to get the most speed out of your skis.  I've got whiplash.
 


It's Epic isn't it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post




Yes, most guys 'tucking' are doing snowplow with parallel skis! The cuff of your boots are probably canted a degree or two out, so it will require a bowlegged stance to get them really flat. Standing in a natural stance most likely will have you slightly on your big toe edges. I did not realize this for years until I noticed the race announcers talking about gliding and you can see the downhillers floating around on the flat sections even though they have long skis without a lot of sidecut. Notice how wide apart their knees are.

If you feel the edges gripping left and right, you are not on fully flat skis, although you think you are. Go play with it on a catwalk sometime, you'll see what I mean.

Properly waxed, a flat ski is faster than an edged one. Racers only engage enough edge to make the gates (stay on their line, actually, which is dictated by the gates).


 

+1

Couldn't resist continuing the hijack, though.

MR
post #100 of 112
Thread Starter 
Too bad it doesn't hit the market til March, have to wait until next season to use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catskills View Post

Just announced today at the Consumer Electronic Show, a $249 pocket radar gun  Now ski patrol can make sure you are responsible.   I have no idea what that means.  You can buy one to see who in your group can go the fastest.  Snowboarders don't have a chance to beat the skiers. 


 
post #101 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post

Wow!  This thread has morphed from a lambasting of the OP for skiing too fast/irresponsibly to a discussion of how to get the most speed out of your skis.  I've got whiplash.
 

Me too!  This one really drifted.
post #102 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by catskills View Post

Just announced today at the Consumer Electronic Show, a $249 pocket radar gun  Now ski patrol can make sure you are responsible.   I have no idea what that means.  You can buy one to see who in your group can go the fastest.  Snowboarders don't have a chance to beat the skiers. 



 


Patrol or Security doesn't need this to have responsibilty -

From the back of a lift ticket of a Area in Utah (on leased public ground)
Management shall have the right to revoke and confiscate this ticket in any instance where, in the judgement of any management representative, the Holder acts in any manner which endangers or may endanger the safety of the Holder or anyother person.

From the back of a lift ticket for The Canyons in Utah (area on private ground)
This ticket and the privileges associated herewith are revocable by any Canyons' personnel if in their sole judgment Holder engages in any improber conduct, or committs any act which endangers Holder or others.

From the back of a lift ticket for a Area in Michigan (on private ground)
and this ticket may be revoked without refund at any time by the management for misconduct of or nuisance caused by the holder.

From the back of a lift ticket of a Area in Canada (on leased public ground)
"This pass is not transferable or refundable and is revocable for misconduct or for breach of the Alpine Responsibility Code."
then the Reponsibilities are spelled out followed by this last sentence
The Ticket Holder further agrees that these conditions and any rights, duties and obligations as between the Ski Area Operator and the Ticket Holder shall be governed by and interpreted solely in accordance with the laws of this Province or Territory and no other jurisdiction.
post #103 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

Me too!  This one really drifted.

We must not have been engaging our edges properly.
post #104 of 112
When I read about the pocket radar gun, I figured it would fit right into this thread.
post #105 of 112
I read this and thing about how badly I want to ski my 812s again.  They sere one of the last GS skis made that still had the groove down the middle of the base
post #106 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post




Yes, most guys 'tucking' are doing snowplow with parallel skis! The cuff of your boots are probably canted a degree or two out, so it will require a bowlegged stance to get them really flat. Standing in a natural stance most likely will have you slightly on your big toe edges. I did not realize this for years until I noticed the race announcers talking about gliding and you can see the downhillers floating around on the flat sections even though they have long skis without a lot of sidecut. Notice how wide apart their knees are.

If you feel the edges gripping left and right, you are not on fully flat skis, although you think you are. Go play with it on a catwalk sometime, you'll see what I mean.

Properly waxed, a flat ski is faster than an edged one. Racers only engage enough edge to make the gates (stay on their line, actually, which is dictated by the gates).

 

Actually, I find that I now prefer to choose a side and loose a bit of speed than have them hunt for turns.  If the hill was perfectly flat, you would be able to keep your skis flat too without them hunting for turns.  The bumps will interact with the side cut when you try to keep your shapely skis flat, just because the skis may be flat, but the snow isn't.  That is for the 13-m skis.
post #107 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

I read this and thing about how badly I want to ski my 812s again.  They sere one of the last GS skis made that still had the groove down the middle of the base

Did someone say groove down the base?
These don't wobble.
post #108 of 112
Catskills, I got a kick out of the radar gun deal!  These things will drift, just like dry snow!

Some tongue, and cheek is good!
post #109 of 112
Maybe the question should be.  Ever ski a run by yourself top to bottom and warp out.   Sure    But then I chose to ski in paradise.
post #110 of 112
re: "squirrely skis"    modern skis do not have a groove cut int he bottom. because of this they do not tract straight. Competition DH or Super G skis are designed to have a large turning radius, and track straighter because it's their design. Still, I miss the old grooved skis, they tracked straight as an arrow. I still have an old pair of Dynastar Freestyle skie swith the groove. They suck on (packed) powder, but really hold well on hardpack.
post #111 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by bosrocker51 View Post

re: "squirrely skis"    modern skis do not have a groove cut int he bottom. because of this they do not tract straight. Competition DH or Super G skis are designed to have a large turning radius, and track straighter because it's their design. Still, I miss the old grooved skis, they tracked straight as an arrow. I still have an old pair of Dynastar Freestyle skie swith the groove. They suck on (packed) powder, but really hold well on hardpack.

Needed:  One groove cutter. :-)    I used to ski Head Standards.
post #112 of 112
Thread Starter 
 I was reading the 'Whats Wrong With Snow Blades" thread in the ski gear area and reminded me of a story that ties in with the initial story that goes with this thread. We used to have a ski club at our school and the organizer was a physics/AP chemistry teacher. He would also do the same thing me and my friend did with some of the students in the high school (I was too young/undeveloped of a skier to be racing when we had a ski club). He was racing on snow blades  
Apparently the physics teacher forgot some of the laws of physics in particular that of gravity. He was holding a slight edge over one of the students and decided to tuck it and straight line it to the bottom. Only problem is the bottom was icy. He ended up wrecking and getting a pretty good concussion and sprained his ankle. The student who he was racing stopped when he saw he had wrecked. 
The student came up and said that there was a deep divet in the hard pack and presumed that was what caused the wreck. It turns out it was not the cause of the wreck but rather the result of his helmetless head slamming into the hard snow.
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