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round turns use more trail width?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
I keep reading where the best ski technique for turns and controlling speed is to round your turns rather than the zigzag with abrupt stops...on steep terrain when you round your turns is more trail width used unless you have very good foot speed to switch edges..?
post #2 of 28

To really control your speed in steep terrain, smear your turn. Try to limit the use of your edges. Medium to short radius turns are best. A lot of people think a Z turn that goes from one side of the trail to the other is a large turn. The fact of the matter is that it's a short turn with a traverse in between. Keep it short and sweet.-----Wigs

post #3 of 28
kriss,
Round turns don't require us to use a wider corridor. That's an option but if the corridor you use exceeds the width of the slope that approach wouldn't work very well. A smaller turn requires us to ramp up the timing and effort but that doesn't mean turning occurs all at once in a strong pivotted way followed by a traverse. Be patient enough to keep the ski working throughout the turn, then start the next turn without pausing. This isn't easy since you are moving into the new turn with what has been described as a leap of faith.
post #4 of 28
Kriss,

Yes. In general, when skiers use turn shape to control speed (round turns) vs skidding with edge sets (zig zag, with abrupt stops) they will use more trail width. But foot speed to switch edges has little to do with using trail width when making round turns. There are lots of other body parts involved and the edge change accounts for a small fraction of the width of the typical round turn,

Don't get hung up on "best ski technique". Round turns may be more biomechanically efficient than zig zg turns, but that does not always make them better. On very steep and narrow terrain, you'll find many experts selecting pedal hop turns (zig zag on steroids) as the best choice for controlling speed. Whenever you ski, it's best to have options for safe, fun and/or efficient turns. The more options you have to choose from, the better off you'll be.  It's perfectly ok to choose effective over efficient. But if you can't make round turns, learning how would give you the option of choosing efficient over effective..
post #5 of 28
Not to high jack the thread - but if you're carving a turn how do you control your speed? The problem I seem to have is that I pick up speed as I move down the hill and then I'm forced to make some skidded turns to scrub the speed off before I begin carving again. Do I need to try to get the edges over further?
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossiGuy View Post

Not to high jack the thread - but if you're carving a turn how do you control your speed? The problem I seem to have is that I pick up speed as I move down the hill and then I'm forced to make some skidded turns to scrub the speed off before I begin carving again. Do I need to try to get the edges over further?
 

If you are “carving” turns speed is controlled by your choice of line.

You pick a slower or longer line which requires a more complete turn finishing more across the ‘fall line’.

A ski with a smaller radius does allow for less time spent in the accelerating in the ‘fall line’ phase of the turn as well as lessens the trail width needed to “carve” turns.
Early high edge angles in the 1st phase of the turn help to establish a tight arc prior to the increasing load cause by acceleration.

I am surprised how many skiers do not know the radius of their skis. How about you what radius ski do use?  
post #7 of 28
Maybe that's what I need to do - get the skis over faster to keep them out of the fall line. Good tip - thanks! I'll give that a shot this weekend.

My skis have a 13M radius.
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossiGuy View Post

Maybe that's what I need to do - get the skis over faster to keep them out of the fall line. Good tip - thanks! I'll give that a shot this weekend.

My skis have a 13M radius.
Like Ray said above speed control comes from line and turn shape.
Finish your turns across the hill for speed control of any shaped turn .A 90 degree turn will have less momentum than one that doesn't get finished . The skiers skiing  the very steep make sure every turn gets finished cleanly for line control and speed control.
post #9 of 28
Keep the ski working throughout the turn but don't get in a hurry to force the skis around. You have plenty of time to intitiate the turn, work the middle of the turn and finish the turn across the hill. If you need to do a five meter turn you may want to do a brushed carve but it's very possible to leave pencil tracks in the snow while making small turns. It just takes diferent types of work throughout the turn. It may sound counter intuitive at first to suggest patience but it is often the key to more consistent speed control.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossiGuy View Post

Maybe that's what I need to do - get the skis over faster to keep them out of the fall line. Good tip - thanks! I'll give that a shot this weekend.

My skis have a 13M radius.
 

On some pitches "carved" turns of more than 180 degrees of direction change are nessasary to control speed.  

Skis with a smaller radius will make it easier to control your speed on the same pitch and allow you to use less hill width wise.
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossiGuy View Post

Maybe that's what I need to do - get the skis over faster to keep them out of the fall line. Good tip - thanks! I'll give that a shot this weekend.

My skis have a 13M radius.

there is this wonderful thing called brushing with brushing you can make any skis do any size turns and still carve the middle of it if you so desire.
post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Like Ray said above speed control comes from line and turn shape.
Finish your turns across the hill for speed control of any shaped turn .A 90 degree turn will have less momentum than one that doesn't get finished . The skiers skiing  the very steep make sure every turn gets finished cleanly for line control and speed control.

That makes sense - stay in the turn longer, get out of the fall line and you'll slow down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Keep the ski working throughout the turn but don't get in a hurry to force the skis around. You have plenty of time to intitiate the turn, work the middle of the turn and finish the turn across the hill. If you need to do a five meter turn you may want to do a brushed carve but it's very possible to leave pencil tracks in the snow while making small turns. It just takes diferent types of work throughout the turn. It may sound counter intuitive at first to suggest patience but it is often the key to more consistent speed control.

You don't know me - I have NO patience. But that makes sense too - patience to allow the turn to complete. I'm usually too eager to get the next turn started.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

there is this wonderful thing called brushing with brushing you can make any skis do any size turns and still carve the middle of it if you so desire.

I will do a search - but can anyone give the two minute version of brushing? I'm not familiar with that term.

Sounds like I've got some good stuff to try this weekend - thanks!
post #13 of 28
Actually patience in all three phases is more what I was talking about. Wigs mentioned the quick turn / traverse "Z" turn which features a strong redirecting phase thats very short in duration followed by a relative lack of turning effort in the transitions between those big pivots. Even that out and be more patient here as well as during the finishing phase, and the initiation phase. A tip that I would suggest is to do these turns on less challenging terrain until you can demonstrate extreme speed control. Then move up to something a bit steeper and start the process over again. When you finally get to the steepest slopes you will have more than enough ownership to do these turns there.
Ski well,
JASP
post #14 of 28

I will do a search - but can anyone give the two minute version of brushing? I'm not familiar with that term.

Sounds like I've got some good stuff to try this weekend - thanks!

 

No need to spend two minutes on it...'brushing' is skidding. In other words not "carving".
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Actually patience in all three phases is more what I was talking about. Wigs mentioned the quick turn / traverse "Z" turn which features a strong redirecting phase thats very short in duration followed by a relative lack of turning effort in the transitions between those big pivots. Even that out and be more patient here as well as during the finishing phase, and the initiation phase. A tip that I would suggest is to do these turns on less challenging terrain until you can demonstrate extreme speed control. Then move up to something a bit steeper and start the process over again. When you finally get to the steepest slopes you will have more than enough ownership to do these turns there.
Ski well,
JASP
I agree if you cannot demonstrate extreme speed control on less challenging terrain there is no use practicing the lack of speed control on steeper terrain.  You are already good enough at that!
post #16 of 28
 In PMTS brushing is using the movements of carving, just at lower edge angles.  
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

 In PMTS brushing is using the movements of carving, just at lower edge angles.  
 

So then we all agree that brushing is not "carving".
post #18 of 28
My take on the how to control speed question above.

Yes, turning more out of the fall-line, i.e., speed control via turn shape, will help to a bit.  But even on light blue terrain, you can get cookin'' in a pure carve (which of course can be if that's your desired result).

If you want more speed control, then it's time to think about smear.  You still want a round turn.  You still want the front of the ski carving.  You still want the tail of the ski following the front.  You don't want the whole ski sliding sideway in a skid.  You want soft edges at the top of the turn.  You want more edge at the bottom.  You want to take time at the top of the turn.  You do not want to hang onto the end of the turn when you edge angle is high; even if you are out of the fallline, you are still excelerating.

Try making some turns with your skis very flat at the top of the turn.    Make sure you take your time from the point turn transition to the time when you skis are directly aligned with the fall line; the first 1/2 of the turn.  Add just enough edge angle at the middle/bottom of the turn to hold.  As soon as you've reached the desired degree of turn completion, start releasing the edges and moving into the new turn.  If you don't have too much edge angle throughout the turn you should be able to use rotary force to shape and smear the turn without a huge skid.  If you don't hang on  your edges on the bottom of the turn, you shouldn't accelerate to ballistic speed.

I find that not hanging onto the end of the old turn really helps provide more time in the top of the turn.  Less time in the bottom of the turn and more time in the top actually yields more speed control, not less.

I try to focus on my ski bottoms being directly flat on the snow through the top 1/4 to 1/3 of the turn.  With the two-edge, four-edge, two-edge thing, try to keep the four edge thing going on from transition through 1/4 to 1/3 of the way through the turn.

You know who's the master of the smeared carve?  Those guys on the PSIA Ed Staff.  I followed them around K-Mart for a week back in December and it seems like that they all can make this perfect smeared carved turn.
post #19 of 28

Waiting to engage the edges? Flat to the snow? Turn pause turn? Not what I'd recommend but if you can do short turns in a narrow corridor that way without a big pivot I'd like to see that video..

post #20 of 28
Sorry kriss - I really did hijack your thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Actually patience in all three phases is more what I was talking about. Wigs mentioned the quick turn / traverse "Z" turn which features a strong redirecting phase thats very short in duration followed by a relative lack of turning effort in the transitions between those big pivots. Even that out and be more patient here as well as during the finishing phase, and the initiation phase. A tip that I would suggest is to do these turns on less challenging terrain until you can demonstrate extreme speed control. Then move up to something a bit steeper and start the process over again. When you finally get to the steepest slopes you will have more than enough ownership to do these turns there.
Ski well,
JASP

That sounds like exactly what I need to do. I have carving down on greens. I'm starting to get it on blues but quickly reach the point of going out of the comfort zone and I'm flying. I need to do what I heard someone say a year ago talking to his buddy - "I've got to learn to trust these new skis." Mine aren't new but you really can cruise while in a carve compared to my old slow skidding (or brushing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu

I agree if you cannot demonstrate extreme speed control on less challenging terrain there is no use practicing the lack of speed control on steeper terrain.  You are already good enough at that!
 
Oh I'm really good at speed control. You should see how slow I can move down an icy black.



Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post

I try to focus on my ski bottoms being directly flat on the snow through the top 1/4 to 1/3 of the turn.  With the two-edge, four-edge, two-edge thing, try to keep the four edge thing going on from transition through 1/4 to 1/3 of the way through the turn.
 

That sounds like side slipping to me which I must say I don't get how that would help to get your speed under control. But I still have a lot to learn...
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Waiting to engage the edges? Flat to the snow? Turn pause turn? Not what I'd recommend but if you can do short turns in a narrow corridor that way without a big pivot I'd like to see that video..


No so much wait as edge progressively.  A lot of advance intermediates, once they learn they have edges, slam on the edges hard right at the top of the turn.  Do that, and you can't shape and smear the turn.  Sometimes it helps to exaggerate instructions.  If a skier is slamming on high edge angle, instruct them to go all the way flat, then maybe they'll start 90% flat at the beginning of the turn and have an easier time shaping the top of the turn.

No pause. Go right from one turn to the next.  That's why not hanging on to the end of the turn helps with speed control.  It's when you pause that you lose speed control.
post #22 of 28

Patience is a hard thing to teach, for sure. Although IMO how you finish the turn is what needs to be clear here. I agree that hanging onto too much edge angle for too long makes the transition more difficult. Not finishing the turn enough across the hill limits how the turn shape can manage speed though.

post #23 of 28
What matter is the angle of your finish that determines how much momentum gets projected across the fall line. A short turn  leading directly to another doesn't take a traverse to happen. Just change edges quickly without hesitation .
A pivot or skid can change the space you need or pivot entry and a clean finish to 90 degrees but you can use more edging if you are quick on your edges and as quick off of them. Having options makes it easier and carving the whole turn is usually out of the question in a narrow corridor. I would finish nicely and use a pivot entry to get a very short turn done quickly in a narrow space.
post #24 of 28
My daughter when six used to say, "If you aren't turning you aren't learning." 
One could manage to control speed not only by going across the hill and therefore, since not going down the hill, a deacceleration is going on, but even committing to the turn to the extent that your turn starts to go UP the hill.  That will slow you down for sure.  Where you choose to switch to the next turn is up to you.

Now patience is said to be a virtue but not so it reads here by some of our cohorts.  Being in a hurry to get to the chair lift and thereby minimizing the amount of time on the slopes while maximizing the ratio of ride time/ski time causes me to note the various orientations we have regarding this sport.  Speed, with or without control is easily generated by letting the skis run down the hill.  Getting the skis on edge and loading up the g-forces with a consistent parallel turn (read railroad tracks) has an aesthetic appeal.

Now dropping into the hill with speed will carry you with more speed.  If the hill is steep (read "too steep") scrubbing off some speed early on in the turn (phase one, going across the hill before dropping down) will give one more control after going past the fall line and trying to scrub it down there.  A little skid there may save you moments later!  This can be a neat controlled move but does necessitate going out of the pure carve.  I used to call it skitching my turn but I understand the racers refer to this as "skivot" as in ski pivot!

EJL

EJL
post #25 of 28
Well I'll say it again.  Get on an edge you will go faster. Use a flatter ski and smear the turn you will go slower.----Wigs
post #26 of 28

What I tend to do is to carve, but to tighten the radius of the carved turn by smearing and brushing.  This is like an inefficient carved turn.  I also like to control speed by really finishing my turn.  When smearing, I like to start and finish the turn with good edge angles and a "locked in ski" so it feels like a carve then let at "10 toes"

So on narrow trails I still prefer to carve or some semblance of a carve.

There is something else that I do that is very effective.  I use it quite a bit in bumps too.  I put a little too much pressure on the front of the ski and steer up hill.  It is extremely functional as I have found it to be, however I wouldn't tell someone to do this in that I don't know that it considered correct technique.  I do have good speed control in tight situations.  Be careful not to over do it, it should be subtle and still centered.

I am not an instructor so I am just throwing this out - more to continue the discussion.

post #27 of 28
If you are carving on hard snow as in edge-locked carving, it won't be long before you are skiing at eye-watering speeds, even if you are skiing the slow line fast.  Carving is just that efficient.  Elevation is being turned into speed.   Softer snow acts as a means of speed control.

The only way to avoid terminal velocity is to smear the turns.  In a way, if you have a 13-m radius ski, you are automatically smearing the turn by the time you descended about 300 feet.  The speed you've gained makes your turns too long for the ski and they can't be pure-carved at the longer radius, and there isn't enough grip to make the 13-m radius turn at that speed.  (limit is about 3 or 4-gs 76 kph will get you about 3.5 gs in a 13 m turn and you won't have the ski flat to the snow to be holding those gs so the ski will be trying to make an even tighter turn than your making).

Of course if it's not too crowded, you don't need to worry about speed control.
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Patience is a hard thing to teach, for sure. Although IMO how you finish the turn is what needs to be clear here. I agree that hanging onto too much edge angle for too long makes the transition more difficult. Not finishing the turn enough across the hill limits how the turn shape can manage speed though.

I got some good practice in a on nice quiet wide green trail this weekend. And I learned a little patience!

I made sure I completing the turns across the fall line more completely and was able to do a much better job controlling my speed. In fact this was the first time I've ever been carving where I was in complete control of how fast I was going. And I see what you mean about hanging onto the edge too long - it's harder to turn the ski over if you do that.

Thanks for the tip!
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