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What Should We Do??????

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
To All,

I can see that some out there do not see ski instruction as a good value. Is it because when you did take a lesson, the pro didn't give you what you wanted out of the lesson? You wanted to work on bumps, but the pro had you working on something else.

This is a situation that comes up all the time. Skiers come to ski school and want to work on something their really not ready to tackle. In bumps for instance, the skier must have good balance skills, a good stance and a good understanding of turn entry. If the skier is lacking in these skills, IMHO, the skier will not get much out of the lesson other than a basic understanding of what one is suppose to do.

So here is the dilemma. Should the pro give the skier what they want, or what they need?--------Wigs
post #2 of 43

I've paid money to an instructor because I believe he/she knows what they are doing. If he/she tells me I'm not ready for something, I believe I should respect the pros opinion. If I don't respect the pros opinion, I should get my money back and be done with it.

I once saw the mogul problem handled very well at tremblant. I was skiing in an intermediate class and everyone kept telling the instructor that they wanted moguls. She told us we weren't ready for them. On the next-to-last day of class, she took us on Expo, a tough mogul run that had an easy escape to another trail. We stopped at the top, she skied two moguls and called each of us down, one at a time, telling us what we had to do. We each skied two moguls and quickly saw that she was right, we weren't ready for it. We skied off to the other trail, content that we'd tried and with a renewed respect for our instructor.

jd<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by frugal_skier (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #3 of 43
I think people go out an spend thousands of $$ on equipment, they buy cars with gps units, 10 disc CD changers, 400 hp motors, etc. Do they NEED all this? Probably not. Do they WANT all this? Most likely yes.

I say, from a 1st years instructors preception, that we give the students what they WANT. But, we must realize, as well as make the student realize, that they may not have great success with learning what they want without learning the basics.

If we give the student what they want, warn them that they MAY not like it, and then give them exactly what they requested. If they find they are not having success, we then turn and give them what they need to make that successful. They just may see that they ARE really getting a good value. Then they may return for more to eventually get what they WANT.

Did this make sense?

PS - The snow is wet and heavy, but we're expecting 18+" througout the day!!! Bonus= my company is having their ski day at Stowe tomorrow!!!! Nothin' better than gettin' paid to ski - and freeski to boot!!!!!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Rexroad (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #4 of 43
Good Question Wigs,

I think after the evaluation run, the instructor should talk frankly with the student. If he feels that the student is not ready for say bumps, explain to the student up front. "I can take you to the bumps and we can work all day long on them but I see some underlying issues that if we fix them now, your bump skiing will improve"
Then offer to end the class there if this is not what the student wants and return the voucher, or offer to work on the problems and then if things proceed well move into the bumps, or if the student says I don't care, take me to the bumps, then at least you tried. I think the instructors need to make sure the students know up front the problems and expectations. I also think it's the student's responsiblity to be "smart" about their lessons. Alas this probably never happens.

One thing I noticed at Alta and I think I saw it somewhere at the canyons, Signs all over the hill for lessons and special clinics. all with a "guarantee" to get you skiing better. I think that's a step in the right direction. I have taken Alta up on their guarantee and they gave us credit for my wife towards another lesson. Now the instructors need to learn that there are no win situations and there are opportunities.
Managment needs to give the top instructors more leeway in making decisions regarding the abilities of the students and the possible refunding of fees.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #5 of 43
rexroad, I live in Essex Center off of Sand Hill Road. Please give me a jingle by e-mail: bgreene@law66.com

To the subject: Give me what I want. I am tired of hearing that I need a good foundation - I may wait forever to do better at moguls, for heaven's sake! I "ski" moguls, sort of. I want to do it better. Carving is EASY, especially on today's skis. I want to learn how to use speed control methods, and I do NOT need to hear, "You must complete every turn". Bullshit! That's no help! The best speed control advice I ever had was from Pierre, eh! being the "bulldozer turn" - almost magical! Now, THAT kind of instruction I can use. If I pay the bill, I am a mature adult, I can ski not too shabby under many conditions - PLEASE do not patronize me. Give what I ask for, and get off the rationalizations of why you would not. OK?!
post #6 of 43
GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT!!! If you go to a restraunt and ask for a steak and they bring you a Tofu salad because you do need to eat healthy, what would your reaction be? The trick is to also give them what they need. Find a bump run that you have to ski some distance to and from, then work on what they need on the way there and back and show them how that is going to help them get what they want. Then let them ski in the bumps and coach them in there. So I say do BOTH!
post #7 of 43
If you get what you pay for and are happy with that then by all means the instructor should give you what you want. I just think you need to be an informed consumer.
post #8 of 43
I thnk it's pretty simple. This is the way I handle it. If the person asks to ski bumps, but isn't ready, I'll be up front and honest with them, and then let them make the decision. I try to explain it to the effect of, if they wanted to learn to fly, they don't just jump in a plane, they take navagation and meteorlogy classes first. Pushing and pulling on the stick and throttles is easy. And learning proper movements on smooth terrain might be what they need. And if they learn that, then the bumps will come naturally and easily. I usually tell them this before I ever see them make a turn. But I also tell them that this is what *might* need to happen. And after I see them ski a bit, I'll let them know if I think they need more work on the flats or are ready to learn bumps. This also gives them a run to decide whether they might want to try the bumps anyway, even if I think they need work on the flats first. I've had lots of people say they still want to go in the bumps. And that's fine. I'll take them there and teach them what I can, as well as prove to them that there are other fundamentals they need to hone in on better before they will be able to make much improvement in the bumps. Other people will be content to stick to the smoothies during the lesson, then go try the bumps again on their own when we are done.

All in all, they are still getting what they want. It's all in them knowing what they want, and how to get it. They'll get what they want, but the process to get it may not be what they expected. You need to tell them that, and set some expectations with them.
post #9 of 43
some instructors are better than others, to state the obvious. they're more intuitive, they me even be more technically "aware" than a colleague with the same certification. some instructors CARE more than others, which translates to: some instructors invest more in a student's progress than others. and i imagine there are times ski instruction is simply thankless. with some students, the cause is lost from the outset, for any number of reasons: the student isn't suited to skiing and doing what it takes (a LITTLE effort, maybe) to improve. with other students it's going to be "bad snow today, huh," or "i think my skis don't work." and - heresy! - SOME instructors are in it for all the wrong reasons.

assuming an instructor has learned to do more than say "here, watch me do it," then ski off, stop, turn and say "okay, now you do THAT" (the best part is the added "it's easy"), the rest is probably up to the individual, and so maybe getting "good" instruction is a matter of chance. it might be one body of information to convey but it's going to come through a wide disparity of conduits, each with different skills and flaws.

WIGS, based on my observations HERE, i can only suggest that instructors too locked in to a dogmatic approach, where everything is cut and dried and black and white and this way, never that...should consider loosening the strings a little and questioning their personal investment in one particular school of thought, to the point of excluding all potential another might offer.

sometimes the absolute wars that erupt here, over simple semantics, leads me to believe that there are at least a few instructors to whom it might be more important to be a Ski Instructor than to do Ski Instruction. Luckily, those are in the minority.
post #10 of 43
Hey Ryan, in case I forgot, It's easy!
post #11 of 43

>>sometimes the absolute wars that erupt here, over simple semantics, leads me to believe that there are at least a few instructors to whom it might be more important to be a Ski Instructor than to do Ski Instruction. Luckily, those are in the minority.<<

I agree - and if there is one thing good to come out of the fall of the reputation of ski instructors from being seens a demi-gods in the 50's-60's to slackers here in the new century . . . its that perhaps it will help purge the profession of ego-motivated instructors. You've got to *really* love teaching and be dedicated to it to stick with it full time these days!
post #12 of 43
Good question Wigs,

I am all for giving the student what they want.After all they are the ones paying for the lession.But the reality is that what they are really paying for is your professional ability.Like the song says"You don't always get what you want but if try sometime you might just get what you need."The student should have confidents in you and your ability to analyze how they are is skiing and what skills they truly need to work on.This is what IMHO is the real problem here. Most skiers think they ski much better then they really do.So How do You, as a professional Ski Instrutor tell a student (diplomaticlly of course) you suck and you going to die in steep Bumps!What a delemma. You guys have to be part teacher, part coach,part diplomate,and part ski buddy.So the point is be honest.Something like,"Before you can really ski bumps these are the skills you need." 'Lets go over to these easy moguls and I will show you what I mean."
Just some thoughts from a non pro skier who like other, most likly over rates my own skills.

The Best skier in the world is the One with the biggest smile. Utah49

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[This message has been edited by Utah49 (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Utah49 (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #13 of 43
Hey, this is fun. Posting, I mean.

Anyway, Utah49 hit it on the head - most skiers overestimate their skill level. Videotaping could be a good way to gently give the student an honest assessment. Say a student, like JohnH or Wigs (and every instructor, it sounds like) has had, asks for bump lessons and is not ready yet. You could tape 'em on the flats and in the bumps and go over areas needing improvement on tape. It might give them more of a reality check.
post #14 of 43
I've heard many times from the pros that it is hard to teach intermediates because it is difficult to get measurable advances quickly (say, 2 hrs private) Do you agree with such assesment?

If this is true, than we don't have a contract. Nobody can tell what student will get for their money in 2 hrs. - nor student, nor teacher. So, automatically, the question of value - is, well, questionable...

Let's turn around the question "What SHOULD we(instructors) do?" and pose different one - Here I (student) am - "What CAN you do?" And be specific, please...

Let me make some turns for you - look, videotape, whatever... Ask about terrain I ski... And now - can you tell me what can you do for me and in what amount of time/money?

If student rarely ventures into blacks and you can see that student can be ready in 2 by 2hrs lessons done according to individualized plan you already have in your head for him - suggest the "contract" to him : "I can teach YOU to confidently ski blacks in 2 privates..." Oh, you wanna ski bumps, too? In 3 x 2hr privates YOU can do that too ... Add a guarantee to that - "If you can't do that by the end of your program - another private will be added for free..."

Now we'd have a contract and question of value is settled - we defined mutually agreable deliverable - I know what I'm after and how much will it cost - and I agree to pay that...

Yes, it would take experience to come up with individual evaluations, estimates and proposals like that. But isn't this capability a mark of a pro?

IMO this 2hr private lesson "product" format is complete BS for intermediates. Ski instructors should stop think about themselves as primadonnas where public pays money for a sheer privilege to ski with them, but think of themselves as of contractors and change format of interaction with customers accordingly. Simple formula : "Free(?) estimates"+"Proposal" = "Contract" will do magic for you - forget about prepackaged 2hr. "product" - choose your own format that will do the job. Develop fool-proof evaluation techniques, standard grids of possible offers, etc. - do like everybody else in the business - and whole thing will finally becomes one busy and happy market...

Now student can even shop for a best value and find instructor/school that one feel comfortable with w/o spending a fortune first. And I guarantee you that the best instructors will make most money in this system... So your L3 certs and pins can really pay off...

Respectfully yours student-


If pro-Bears are game we can quickly run an experiment right here with milesb video (our own pioneer of high-tech interaction in ski instruction ( http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000263.html ) : judging from video and what you know of milesb skiing preferences (or ask him questions if you need first) - can you make him several offers in terms of "contractual" goals and time commitment - and see what milesb perceives as the best value... If milesb do not object of course and Bears are willing to give it a shot... We can arrange that "offers" are sent privately to milesb and he just publishes an overview of offers received and one he has chosen as the "best value"... We can even agree that milesb can call on the "offer" and tell us if he was completely satisfied - this would be FUN!
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[This message has been edited by AlexS (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #15 of 43
AlexS -

>>Ski instructors should stop think about themselves as primadonnas where public pays money for a sheer privilege to ski with them<<

Generalizations are demeaning to the person who comes up with them, as well as the people who are lumped together.

The PSIA is a very large organization, the community of world wide instructors a much larger one. There are certainly prima-donna's within it, just as there are prima-donna recreational skiers. Egoists abound in all walks of life. As I mentioned earlier, I think this Prima-Donna attitude among instructors is now no more prevalant than it is among most other teaching professions, the heady days of ego-fantasy-fullfillment for instructors started passing about 25 years ago. By about 10 years ago, it was really dead.

I would think that the real danger is making sure that ones own perceptions of reality keep up with the rapid changes of actual reality. ("Reality" obviously being pretty subjective! )<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Gravity (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #16 of 43
The video thing and or a digital cam is a great tool. I have been thinking that this also leads back to a multi day type of program.To really improve you need some multi day lessions or better yet some multi day coaching.Sart the moring by looking at tapes of the previous days sking point out the The good stuff and the bad Get the whole class active in seeing what is and is not good skiing. Then take em out and do it all again.Some drills and then some hard runs Tape again at end of day and students can see where they have improved from the last day.Have a beer laugh and Learn.

The Best skier in the world is the One with the biggest smile. Utah49
post #17 of 43

I think putting this obviously provocative statement in bold really detracted from intended message and context - I apologize for that sincerely... I, personally, did not meet any primadonnas in ski instruction - all of them were just good guys who, obviously, love to ski and certainly could do that million times better than me...

I meant that the practice selling just blocks of skiing time is reminiscent or perhaps historically inherited from such attitude and IMO should go - and be replaced with individualized educational programs/clinics...

Once again, no disrespect meant -

- Alex.
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[This message has been edited by AlexS (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #18 of 43
Thanks for clafifying Alex -

I think that your concept of re-thinking the entire format of lesson structure and selling is quite valid, and one that we need to look at within ski schools (the PSIA has little pull in matters such as this, nor does it try too).

Unfortunately, even those of us working as trainers or supervisors in ski schools often have little control in this business that is controlled increasingly by CEO's and corporate boards.

So when you have ideas such as this, you should write the mountain manager(s) with them, and maybe help us all out!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Gravity (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #19 of 43
OK, I'm lousy at it, but I ski in the bumps. I mean, I really ski there and I'm really lousy at it - I mean, I barely survive them. But it's what I WANT! So I go to these two instructors, and I say, "I want a few private lessons to learn how to ski in the bumps." One guy says, "Whoa! First we have to work on building your technique on the groomers! When you have that worked out, THEN we'll hit the bumps." The other guy - goes by Pierre, eh! - says, "Sure! Let's go!" And so, you silly goose, to whom am I more likely to pay my $$? and from whom am I more likely to be open to learning? Hmmmmm. That IS a tough one.
post #20 of 43

When I was painting exterior of my house couple years back, I've got an estimate from one guy with hardly legible accent for $2,500 , $4,500 from Sears and $10,000 from two wisemen highly recommended by former and very wealthy client of theirs... Which offer would you take? Some offers to some people can look just a little bit too good or too hard to be true... Some research is recommended...

Provided that "Let's go!" instructor will hold his end of bargain and will indeed teach you skiing bumps within agreed costs - (remember - Piere Eh! puts learning as the last priority if I get it right...) you'd make a right choice - otherwise $$ you spring for that may substract from joy of safe(?) fun you had...

But I support wholeheartedly a freedom of choice in a free market - let them make several offers to you - select the one you think is the best value to you - and go! Just do not assume that everybody else's choice will be the same as yours An accountant will know who's doing the right thing

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[This message has been edited by AlexS (edited March 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #21 of 43
Interesting, since this seems to be the same question I asked, but from the other side. Let me tell you about an experience this year, and what started it all out.

On my first day of a trip (I'd been out earlier in the season), we got dumped on with some fresh powser and I was awful. Way back. Not facing downhill. Unable to make a clean turn, fighting my skis and exhausted because of it. I decided to take a two hour private. I knew I'd not get much out of it that day, but I also knew that I had simply forgotten how to ski.

The instructor seemed to feel bad for me. Here I was, unable to take even some of the blue runs, on a tough day, tired, and unable to ski. She seemed to be surprised when I tipped her well after the lesson, and even more surprised when, the next day, I left another tip in her mailbox. She saw me on the slopes and decided to ask me what was up.

I explained to her. I had literally forgotten how to ski. For some reason, I was starting my turns with my heels instead of my knees and shins. This threw me off, and I couldn't seem to catch up to my skis. The lesson with the instructor let me figure it out, and, by the next day, I was in fine shape.

The instructor kept saying, "But I didn't help you during the lesson! It just doesn't seem right." She did help me though, by noticing what I was doing wrong, showing me, and letting me catch up to myself the next day.

As you can tell, I think a great instructor is one who can do that. I lean to that being the instructor's job. It's why I asked in a different thread if it's even acceptable to say that I want to learn something specific. If I'm ready for it, that's great! But if not, I don't just accept, but rather EXPECT the instructor to say, "I don't think you can ski that safely. Let's try this first, and then we'll see if we can get you onto where you want to go."

That's not to say that I don't want to suggest where I want to go. But how to get there, as I mentioned in the other thread, is something I expect a professional to know better than I do.

Of course, if the next time I take a lesson I run into Pierre, Eh! and we just start bouncing down the bumps, well, it's not like I've never fallen down a whole mogul run before, and I'll probably do it again! At least this time, Pierre can help me find my hat, gloves, glasses, etc. I just hope he doesn't laugh too loud...
post #22 of 43
Thread Starter 
Well gang, it seems that the "give them what they want " is the popular vote.

There might be some problems with that though. At large ski resorts, and small ones too, there is the issue of law suits against the instructor and the ski resort itself, brought against them by the student. Even though the skier told the pro that he or she wanted to ski the bumps, black diamonds, double diamonds etc, and was told by the pro that in their opinion, they weren't ready for that challenge, it didn't matter to them. And then the skier gets hurt and says that the pro had them in inappropriate terrain, and the pro said nothing to them about not having the ability to ski that kind of terrain. Sure, the skier told a fib, but that doesn't matter. It's a he say she says.

If someone gets hurt in our class, we must fill out an accident report. ( I hate paper work! except of coarse, writing post to this forum. ) One of the questions on that report is, " was the student skiing in appropriate terrain to their ability? " If I say, " Well no, but the student wanted to ski that terrain. " I would find myself standing in front of the ski school manager trying to explain myself.

I'm not leaning towards not giving the student what they want, I do my best. But still, I have to be careful. Pierre eh!, sometimes I'll get some young stud that says to me, " I want to go jump off a cliff " and the guy is a level 6 or so. So I tell these brain dead bullet proof supermen that I'll show them where the cliffs are, and they can go jump off them AFTER CLASS. That, of coarse is the extreme. It doesn't happen very often, but does, every once in awhile.
More often it's a level 5-6 that wants to ski black diamond bumps or go down a double black diamond. With a skier at that level, I will try to explain to them that I think they need more work on there skills and maybe in easier bumps first, but if they still want to jump into a black bump run, then lets go. Usually, after that first run they realize that maybe I was right, and we go to more appropriate terrain. With the skiers that want to ski a double D at that level, I won't do it. If they got hurt, I would be in BIG trouble.

So, it's a tough call sometimes. Again, I do my best to give them what they want within reason. But if I put someone in over their heads because that's what they wanted, two things can happen. One, they might get hurt, and you already know how I feel about paper work. and two, the student goes away with a bad taste in their mouths that they didn't learn anything.

So the dilemma is still there. I say give them what they want within reason, and explain to them that this approach may not be the best way to achieve their goals. If they listen and say " Okay, what do you think is the best way to learn how to ski the steep bumps? " ) that's great! But if they don't think so and won't listen, them hope that maybe one run down a mine field will knock a little sense into them, and they will go along with what you had in mind.--------Wigs

P.S. Thanks you guys for your responses.
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[This message has been edited by Wigs (edited March 23, 2001).]</FONT>
post #23 of 43
Pierre eh, what kind of things would you show Oboe in the bumps that would be useful to him?
post #24 of 43

So it's obvious there is a large population of skiers - I'm guessing the 7 to 12-day-a-year crowd(not to cast aspersions, just to guess at a particular demographic) - for whom it is more important to ski (get down) a black (or double-black) than to ski "better." <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by ryan (edited March 23, 2001).]</FONT>
post #25 of 43
Thread Starter 

>>So it's obvious there is a large population of skiers - I'm guessing the 7 to 12-day-a-year crowd(not to cast aspersions, just to guess at a particular demographic) - for whom it is more important to ski (get down) a black (or double-black) than to ski "better." <<

There is a population of them, but I wouldn't say it's a large population. At least for the ones that come to me for lessons. But like I said in my last post, there are some that want to push the envelope before their ready.-----Wigs
post #26 of 43
Wigs, the, problem IMHO, is that we are a culture of instant gratification. Look at the infomercials about all the at home fitness gadgets that promise "fast results in just 3 minutes a day!"
Indeed, fitness professionals have to deal with this every working day. People come to us with highly unrealistic goals, and are unwilling to go through all the steps involved in achievment: change of diet and lifestyle, postural alignment, etc. Instead, they ask for the "silver bullet" that will help them "get rid of" their gut, thighs, extra weight, whatever.
This need for instant gratification ranges from being annoying, to somewhat dangerous. For example, most gyms have beginner step classes. Step is NOT something you can just "pick up". But hardly anyone takes the beginner classes. Instead, they come into the advanced classes wearing incorrect footwear, with muscles and coordination insuffcient for performing advanced moves. And like you said, paperwork S**ks!
I always ask what peoples goals are, by I do try to make them aware that there is a process. Along the way, I will reinforce the fact that what we are doing is going to help them achieve their goals.
Here's the problem. It all comes down to a lack of what Tog so beautifully described as a "culture of learning" in this country. If it were present, the journey toward the goals would be exciting. It sure is for me. The nice surprise is that every time I set a skiing goal for myself, if I am patient, I will actually EXCEED those goals!
But can it be that skiers such as myself, dchan , Ryan, milesb are the exception to the rule, and not the average skier in that we all seem to enjoy the process?

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #27 of 43
Wigs, when I used to teach I had a silent goal, determine where they are and move them ahead from there.

To determin at what stage they are, no matter what their request, I would see just where they went into "survival mode", and that was where they were.

Since you can't learn anything in survival mode, being worried about going out of control or hurting yourself, a step back was required.

If at the beginning of the lesson a student was in survival mode on certain terrain with certain conditions and if at the end of the lesson the student could ski that without panic, I was happy whith that lesson.

post #28 of 43

My hat off to you - you're really good and kind man.

I had similar experience to yours and my initial reaction was the same - of rationalization - after 2 hrs skiing behind the guy hoping he has some miniature rearview mirror I just had to find something I've learned from L3 instructor... Otherwise what does it tell about me? Yeah, I said to myself and to my wife , when I followed his exact tracks I've got a good feel for good round turn shape... But then I recalled that I'd spent two days before the lesson skiing under ski lifts working on the turn shape - no wonder it felt good... And then I ran out of rationalizations ideas - and felt really stupid for swiping credit card w/o even really asking what for...

Without set goal, plan for development, mutual obligations and expectations - the whole transaction is just shot in the dark...The joke's on me, then...

As you may notice (check my similar request earlier http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000229.html ) I'm in total agreement with you - I believe it's an instructor's job and privilege to tell me how I can get where I want to be.... I'm even open to suggestions as to what can be reasonable goals/milestones for me at my stage of development... If I like the plan I'll follow through with my commitment - if I have doubts I'll look further... But maybe this is just me (or us two ) - maybe majority just tell instructors what to do and where to go or just demand to be entertained... Judging from what I read in this forum I have a feeling that this maybe not far from the truth... In which case - good for majority! But why we're talking instruction then? This would be closer to "snow escort" service - no bad connotations meant here, please...
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[This message has been edited by AlexS (edited March 23, 2001).]</FONT>
post #29 of 43
You know, skiers seeking, for example, to "learn the bumps" CAN be dealt with quite rationally in a way they would even appreciate. 1) Tell them you need to see them perform at their highest level to gauge where they are in their learning. Let them take you anywhere they want, or else like the guy said above, take them on progressively tougher trails and see where they reach "survival mode". 2) Tell them the process needed to get where they want to go - be up front, tell them the movements they will be learning to make. 3) Tell them that the speed of getting where they want to go is up to them - it's their time and money. 4) Get to work and let them ask whatever they want. If they want a "short cut", go ahead! GIVE it to them! If they're satisfied, ok. If not, tell them what you feel will fix it. That's all you can do. But bear in mind, they do NOT want to dally through the process, so do what you need to do as fast as it can be done. You're not talking about training world class skiers - you're talking about a fun seeker seeking to have more fun, and if it isn't done perfectly, THEY DON'T CARE. If they want to know how to do something, TELL THEM. You know, Pierre, eh! talked about the bulldozer turn, so I basically had the knowledge. So did I catch on right away. Uh, I don't think so, no. But armed with the knowledge, way after receiving it, I finally did catch on. If you give your students effective information, they can use it long after they have packed their skis and went back to Flatland City. They'll be out there again, one day or another, and ZING! JEEZ! That really IS the bulldozer turn!! This is the point of view of ONE really mediocre non-professional - a consumer. Make of it what you will.
post #30 of 43
I just love it when teachers so beautifully complain about lack of "culture of learning"! From whom do you think people do or do not pick it up?

Gravity mentioned that when he lived in Europe he witnessed teachers (gasp!) yelling at students - he didn't mention though that he witnessed a lot of students there yelling expletives at teachers which is norm in our public schools here - or science being equalled to just "opinions" of some crazy nuts that call themselves "scientists"...

I understand that some groups of teachers just have to deal with the product of other "teachers" - and under severe commercial pressures... But where and when the buck will stop?

Will any group of educators in this country ever make a stand to defend culture (not only of learning)? Don't you think the prevalent "tips for tips" format so suitable for short attention spans and instant gratifications all but closes the door for those students who is still serious about their ski instruction? Do you have a feeling that you're somehow contributing to the problem by catering to the learning attitudes you yourself maybe despise?

Why cannot at least one school on my mountain proclaim themselves as "serious" ski school - and maintain a "culture of learning" to the highest standard - lose all these instant gratification "lessons" and clients - and get seriously busy with those who's left - and I'd pay more for the privilege to be properly schooled. The results that they would get with smaller but committed customer base I'm sure will speak for themselves! "Whoa - where did you learn to ski like that?" In several seasons this school I'm sure will make more money than other schools still caught in "tips for tips" mediocrity. And with realization that real skills can come efficiently through real learning - the "culture of learning" may start its slow resurrection... I believe that's how some local areas seem to be able to raise awareness of the value of instruction - somebody mentioned Taos?
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[This message has been edited by AlexS (edited March 23, 2001).]</FONT>
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