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Best teaching moments..the day I was taught to skid

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
Thought that would be a bit provocative; though hopefully this isn't just another skidding v. carving thread.

Every big ski trip back to Utah, I try to take at least one lesson/clinic. I really feel that no matter what your skill level, you can benefit from it. My expereince has ranged from downright discouraging to having a profound effect on my skiing. This is one of the later cases.

My memory is a littel fuzzy, this was at least 3-4 years ago, admittidly before the then radically shaped skis had really caught on, but carving was as hot a topic then. I took an afternoon lesson in PC, IIRC, placed in a 7-8 group, they didn't have any clinics, just a pretty deep line-up of abilities -- so I was toward the top of a top group, but not in the situation of feeling like I was wasting my time. (hopefully thats not immodesty -- I mean, who cares? -- just trying to describe the situation.)

Anyway, we all decided to ski bumps mostly, the instructor (wish I could remeber his name) spent a lot of time with each of us, relating to what was going on with our own personal skiing ruts. But what he focussed on with me was really surprising. "You've got to know how to skid more." This floored me, because I had spent all of my formative years skiing with my parents and everyone else settinga s the goal perfect carved turns.

He said obviously almost everyone he taught at that level he was trying to get to learn to carve really nice clean turns. While I could do that well, what I wasn't doing was using any skid when and where appropriate. (That is, a nice balanced, skid; I was more than capable of washing out and scrubbing speed at the end of turns.)

What he did was work with me on a very flat slope, following me and instructing me to turn with my skis as flat as possible to the snow. I know this sounds weird, but this was like a revelation to me.

He also had me play with letting my skis run flat for a very short period at the end of each turn and before the start of the next one. This has been helpful in a number of ways, but most notably in understanding that this really is an important point in the turn. Before, I would always simply jump from one edge to the other, if you know what I mean. It also really helped me to learn to relate to ice. Of course, then I turned this useful teaching device into a habit that I later had to deal with, but that's another story...

We spent most of the rest of the day on bumps, and specifically concentrating on speed control. I was (occasionally still am) definetly one of those skiers who do great down the first few bumps, but then start getting going a little faster than comforatble, and bail. So just working with speed control was very important.

But the 'skidding' part helped immeseaurably with this. I know, this doesn't jibe with the carving doctrine, and I should be skiing the slow line fast, etc.. but a big part of it for me was getting comfortable with learning to control where the turn transition happens, and this does seem to involve some skidding. One of the excercises we did was flattening the skis down the downhill side of the bumb at the turn transition. This was really a cool excercies, hard to describe, but it just felt really neat. Basically when we were done, I felt that I could ski almost any bump run at any speed I wanted, including a walking pace, which helped immeasurably with confidence.

To be clear, I am not talking about making skiddy, washout turns here, controlling speed through scrubbing it off. What I was feeling was more like controlling turn shape and transition (so really, still skiing the slow line fast) through the use of the full spectrum of edging, all the way to flat, that is no edge. Does that sound like a rationalization?

Anyway, all I know is that that was one day of just a few that I would really say was a breakthrough day for me, and it came about through seomthing that sounds counter-intuitive, or even heretical in the context of modern skiing technique. Maybe my situation was pretty unique, all I know is that it helped my skiing incredibly, and I'm very grateful to instructors like this one who can think not about doctrine, but about what will really help the client to ski better.

I'd be interested in hearing what others, and esp. instructors think of all this. Again, I'm not really interested in reviving a skidding v. carving debate, more of understanding how any doctrine applied too forcefully can have unintended consequences, and ways that instructors can get a deeper understanding of what is really going on with each individual skier.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 12, 2001 11:49 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Lodro ]</font>
post #2 of 36
Lodro,

What you learned that day is something that I, BB and others have tried to put across many times. Skidding is an inherient part of skiing, some even argue that it occurs in every turn even the purest carves. I don't know about this last part, RR track turns on very hard pack performed by a very high skill skier don't seeme to display skid to me but that type of turn has limited use in normal skiing. But if skidding to some degree is a part of every turn whether wanted or not it seems to me to make a lot of sense to train a skier to create and control the amount of skid rather than just let it happen or have only minimizing it as your goal.

Congrats on a important lesson well learned,
Yd
post #3 of 36
Lodro, what you were learning was edge control, something EVERY skier need to know...

....Ott
post #4 of 36
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ott Gangl:
Lodro, what you were learning was edge control, something EVERY skier need to know...

....Ott
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, you're absolutly right; although ego-wise I'll modify it to say I was learning _more_ about edge control [img]smile.gif[/img], but I felt it was also more than that, you know, I knew _technically_ how to release or relax a turn, but it was my _attitude_ that needed adjusting -- does that make any sense? There's also a different feeling when the ski is totally flat..

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 12, 2001 02:26 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Lodro ]</font>
post #5 of 36
What a great topic! I know it's been covered before but it's always good to drive this one home.

Now if I could just get a chance to work on this..........

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 12, 2001 03:03 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Sugar Snack ]</font>
post #6 of 36
Versatility is to skiing as location is to real estate!!!
post #7 of 36
The day I got kicked out of class...

I hadn't skied in over 30 years. As a favor to one of my gal friends, I tried it again. I took a "never ever" class because I didn't even know how to put on the new equipment. Once they had us on the slop, I had an AAAHhhhhaaw!!!!! And started to ski all over the place. The instructor pulled me aside and told me that if I wasn't going to follow the class, I could just go over to the other beginner slop. I did. By the end of the day, I was able to control my skis and not spin out any more. Best investment up to that point. That was in March, and by the end of the ski seasson, I was skiing everything blue.

Since that first lession I have had several lessons & have just finished 6 sessions on a vitual snow machine. I've learned so much and can't wait to learn even more.
post #8 of 36
This is interesting. It seems we have a new kind of intermediate skier; the carver that can't use a flat ski. I have had a couple of these in my training family in the last couple years. One guy Tom, could carve all over the groomed, and go super fast, but was lost in pow, crud, and real steeps. We spent lots of time doing drills like pivot slips, and now he skis comfortably all over Mammoth. One of the most important elements of good edging is sometimes not edging at all.
post #9 of 36
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by spinheli:
This is interesting. It seems we have a new kind of intermediate skier; the carver that can't use a flat ski. I have had a couple of these in my training family in the last couple years. One guy Tom, could carve all over the groomed, and go super fast, but was lost in pow, crud, and real steeps. We spent lots of time doing drills like pivot slips...all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not me [img]tongue.gif[/img] been skiing 25 years and have never been lost in crud or steeps.

Seriously, this is interesting, though I think my experince was quite a bit different. Still, think of me as a forerunner of the pure carver fallacy..

After all, with the sidecut on the skis I was skiing then, I had to be skidding some/most of the time. The difference was that I _thought_ that I should be carving whenever possible, even when it was either impossible or the wrong thing to do. So I ended up really trying too hard. This didn't happen in deep snow, because [edit] _I thought_ you don't carve deep snow in the same way you would hard snow, even if the same mechanics apply, so I didn't have this hang-up.

Anyway, in my case it was really one of those revelation cases, because, as I pointed out to Ott, I more or less had the right skills, including good slipping, I just needed to learn when and how to use them appropriatly.

It seems to me that this is an interesting point: thewir seem to be seperate and distinct peices at work here: 1) the basic skills, or "moves" 2) the general holisitc relationship to the mounntain -- I dunno, I guess the kinesthetic knowledge your body has about what to do on the snow, what feels natural and what doesn't, etc.. and 3) the strategy, or what you choose to do when. These all work together -- are actually inseperable -- but they can also be adressed independently. In this particualr case, for me my problem was #3, I had the wrong _strategy_ and once someone pointed this out to me, everything else just fell into place.

[edit]Anywayt, congratulations for correctly identifying the issuie here with your skiers. I'm sure Tom is grateful! Do you really think you're seeing a trend here? If so, perhaps this points to some areas that could be sharpened up in earlier progressions. For example, I remember spending a lot of time when I was young doing things like controlled sideslips down the mountain; is this still happening?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 12, 2001 07:26 PM: Message edited 3 times, by Lodro ]</font>
post #10 of 36
Oops! Didn't really put that right. Tom was a 22 year old from VA that has never skied a straight ski, only shaped. All he had ever learned was carving. The condition that really gave him trouble was bumps. Being in my training group, he had to learn to ski moguls, as I made them bump every day. He also had a lot to learn to get good in crud, pow, and steeps, since we are in Mammoth, and I avoid the groomed like the plague. He had to work on a bunch of stuff, like a short turn, blocking pole plant, Etc.. But the flattening and steering of his skis was a big one. There are people learning on shape skis that get locked into this carve thing, and never get pivoty skiddy skills. It really limits the terrain and snow they can ski.
post #11 of 36
Sadly, I can identify with this thread. I am also one of those skiers that is much better at carving than at pivoting and skidding. Last year I was shocked to find out how simple drills, like check turns, were poorly executed because I would engage my edges way too early, thus eliminating any possibility of pivoting the skis. It really is OK to have a flat ski once in a while! :

I find that as I embrace skidding and pivoting more, I am becoming a better skier (especially in the bumps). Thanks Lodro for bring this up. It reinforces the fact that I have to work harder on these skills.
post #12 of 36
WOW--this is a great thread, and a timely topic! Thanks, LoDro--this could be the most important thread of the season....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It seems we have a new kind of intermediate skier; the carver that can't use a flat ski. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, indeed, Spinheli! That is exactly what we have. Whereas not long ago it was a rare skier who could really carve a turn, now, with today's deep sidecut skis, "anyone" can learn to it, in short order.

Carving some sort of turn is actually extremely easy. Tip your skis on edge and hang on--that's really all there is to it. It takes very little skill just to cut an arc in the snow--unlike the past. Carving turns does not require perfect balance. It does not require steering skills. "Anyone" can do it to some extent within 2 minutes of getting on skis.

Unlike the past, "carving" does not require one to be an expert, nor is it any longer even the mark of the expert.

The mark of the expert is, as it always has been, a high level of skill at ALL of the options available for using the tools on our feet, combined with a high level of skill at choosing the right tactics to get the job done, or just to express the right mood or create the desired sensation. It is not "a move." It is not "parallel." It is not "carving." It is SKILL.

As Ydnar pointed out, many of us have been saying this for a long time. We've been imploring skiers to develop the full spectrum of skills, and not to fall victim of promised "shortcuts to expert" that have become so common. There are none!

Years ago, "shortcut" teaching methods (think "GLM") were really shortcuts to mediocre graceless skidded turns. Today, the pendulum has swung, and many shortcuts lead to the mediocrity of the equally graceless edge-locked carve.

Expert skiing involves the spectrum from pure "hockey stop" braking skids to pure linked, railed carves, as appropriate. To master this range, we must develop skills in Edging, Pressure Control, and Rotary, and blend these skills as needed.

Beware of "teaching systems" that claim instant expertise. Beware of instructors who deny the importance of the rotary skill, or who insist that only carved turns are good turns. Beware learning progressions that focus too heavily on "a move."

Even at the World Cup level--or should I say ESPECIALLY at this elite level--racers very rarely make pure-carved turns, especially in the "technical disciplines" of slalom and giant slalom. The racer's line is too critical (usually) to trust entirely to the skis! In their quest for the ultimate control of line, racers are as likely to throw their skis sideways to redirect them before engaging the edges as they are to simply roll smoothly from one edge to the other. They'll do either, as needed, because they can, and because they often have to!

This thread is a celebration of the versatility and mastery that is expert skiing.

Long live skillful skiing!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #13 of 36
Bob I tend to agree with everything that you said but I would like to add a couple more things.
Some alignment problems can manifest themselves as a railed ski making skiding difficult.
Tune on the skis can also have a large impact on ones ability to skid turns with consistency.
post #14 of 36
Good points Pierre eh! I agree--railed out skis can have many causes. But you should see Copper Mountain these days--everyone from masters racers to junior race-teamers to mis-guided intermediate skiers doing nothing but tipping one way, then the other, riding the rails. There is little movement, other than the quick change from the "right turn position" to the "left turn position."

There's no doubt that riding the rails like this can be fun. But where's the skiing?

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #15 of 36
Pierre Eh! - Actually, the skier I was writing about had some real alignment issues. He had a pair of Rossi boots that were totally wrong for him. We ended up getting a pair of Head WCs, and reducing the ramp and the forward lean. This got his fore/aft, and lateral alignment dialed. This was a major turning point in his skiing. Sometimes this sport is way to equipment dependant. Ski boots suck!
post #16 of 36
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
There's no doubt that riding the rails like this can be fun. But where's the skiing?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that...one thing to note here is that as fun as it is to do..it certainly isn't very [edit: ok, _that_] interesting to watch; much more fun to watch someone who really knows what they are doing take a fluid s line through the bumps, using the entire reprotoire of skiing skill.

THere is such a huge difference between someone who can rail a ski from side to side, and someone who really has the full specturm. I remember a Ski magazine article of a couple of seasons ago showing the "old" way to ski and the "new" way. Now granted, the old way guy looked a bit constipated in that very exagerated ski school kind of way, but I would still _much_ rather look like that then the "new" guy, who looked as though he might as well be wearing a starter jacket and a pair of jeans. No grace, nor form whatsover, he was just bombiong down the hill, jumping from his left foot to his right.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 14, 2001 11:31 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Lodro ]</font>
post #17 of 36
I'm new to this forum and must say that I prefer other ski forums mainly. Still, I found many gear and technque discussions here very interesting.

So, I got to add this view:

I skied one day (in European Alps) last winter with a very, very good freeskier (even extreme skier, I would say, in the truest meaning of the word)

The guy was skiing on Atomic's super wide powder skis. And what did I see... skidding - all the time. Sliding on different banks, rollers and even frozen trees, powerfull slashes made from full speed carved turns, completely sideways decleration turns in the steep trees...this guy have ridden a lot with boarders and it showed. He was 'surfing' the terrain with speed, using terrain features to have fun and play, all the time, not just monotonic turns but changing direction and turn radius continuously - it was really incredible to watch!

I was on narrower (still wide) modern 'freeride' skis with a lot more sidecut and couldn't do any of those moves. This really was the day I realized that for the really advanced skier too much sidecut is just bad, especially if you ski a lot on the back country.

It's the 'ying and yang' thing - on this particular day I realized that when I have learned to really carve (my goal has always been that), then after that I really have to learn how to SKID again!(and get some really wide and straight skis!:=)

Funny, isn't it?
post #18 of 36
Welcome Jiehkevarri

I'm glad you found us.

I find it interesting that the conclusion you come to is that really advanced skiers and too much sidecut is bad. For the conditions you mention it's probably true that fat skis were the best ski for the conditions but the need to go to wide straight skis may be overboard to learn to "skid". Different strokes?
some good observations and again welcome...
post #19 of 36
Dchan:

Thanks. What I meant is maybe not just skidding in a way you do for example in moguls or fast traditional, 'wedeln' turns.

I think that actually the way of skiing I described is something totally new. 'Base turning' of something like that might be the right expression. Skis cabable for that are the likes of Machete McHucster, Volkl Explosive, Atomic Powder Ride, Nordica 105, Igneous FFF...really skilled rider can turn them fast and in very high speeds from almost straight line to completely sideways decleration turn.

Ever seen Gordy Peifer in the 'Realm' doing this? On his Alaskan segment, he's skiing wide open Alaskan face,which leads into the narrow couloir... it seems that he has way too much speed to do anything but straightline the chute and this seems first like a certain disaster (the chute being very gnarly) BUT just before the couloir he hits his skis (the infamous XXXX's by the way) completely sideways, skis flying on TOP of the snow sideways, pretty much like a snowboard,for like 30 feet, declearating nicely... and then skiing the couloir fast, but not that fast as earlier, with nice, a bit shorter, turns.

Do you understand what I mean? In the situations like that too much sidecut will just cut too aggressively into the snow and making the 'slide', maybe not impossible, but very hard to express and even dangerous.

Ever noticed what kind of skis top freeriders ski? They are wide and they don't have that much sidecut. And I think it is just for the predictability(SP?)of straighter skis, it's the skier, not the ski, that define the turn radius and way the skis act. And with ever changing conditions outside the slopes that is really something to preciate. Besides IMO it's more FUN even...this kind of skiing gives you more variety, in fact.

Jus my 2 cents...anybody else noticed something similar? - it seems that not that many 'average' skiers know about this, after all...

Sorry, if my english is not that good (I'm not native speaker) Hope you guys understand it anyway.
post #20 of 36
PS. What I'm talking above is about skiing outside the slopes in changing snow conditions.

That isnaturally just one part of skiing. On the other side of the spectrum, there are short slaloms and hypercarvers etc. But just as these are tools for icy slopes and tight, pure carves, the above mentioned skis are IMO tools for all out freeriding.

And that's the point I was going to say: if there's one end of skiing nowadays where extreme, really pure carving is the hot topic, there is also other end where you could almost say that 'extreme skidding' (or better yet 'sliding') is really a hot topic too.

What I mean by this is the sliding on the top of the snow aspect. I think never earlier were skiers beeing able (or even knew about how) to do high speed sideways slides on top of the deep snow like today. This is where skiing and snowboarding have become a lot closer together just in, lets say, five years.

Not to say that carved turn weren't a necessary basis for all these lesser known techniques. I just wanted to say this for people to realize that carving is not 'be-all,end-all' of skiing: There's lot more to do than just rail your skis on edges, and that is not necessarily skidding (understood in the traditional way)...
post #21 of 36
What a fun thread! I'm sure all of us who have spent alot of time teaching good skiers how to ski the ENTIRE mountain can relate. Thankyou for the pre season thoughts Lodro and all.

In my evolution as a skier and instructor, i spent alot of time thinking about and playing in "the MAGIC ZONE". My long time mentor (25 year ski teacher, from 2nd tier world cup level skier) came up with the phrase to refer to the time when the skis are flat. I feel it is not only important for the versatility you've been discussing, but also for the cleanest version of the turn du jour (the railroad track carves). This goes back to the ohh so long "unweight?" thread, but that transition moment is at it's best and most seamless if the skier is comfortable in the magic zone. many of the skiers railing arc to arc, find ways to get from edge to edge without that seamlessness. It feels safer to always be on an edge, it's almost like a security blanket (think of what we do when we're most scared in the steep and knarly. Jump from one set of edges to the other, no finesse, no magic zone.) An image I use to teach this idea is 2 toes(meaning big and little toes, or both edges of the ski engaged) 10 toes (moving through the magic zone with weight on all both flat skis) 2 toes (now on the other set of edges.) Anyway, I know it's cool to be super quick from one set to the other, but there is also a good reason one of the best skiers I've ever known called the flat place MAGIC. There's something to learning about all the great choices we can make during this moment.

Jiehvarri,(SP?)
I'm also totally with you on your images of the new big mountain style. The boyz are playing with the terrain in an amazing way on those huge boards. As a fisher pro rep, I'd also like to add the Big Stix 106 to your list of huge surfing skis. It as big underfoot as the others you mentioned (although it has a little more shape). As far as why the big boys are going straighter. As you stated, the ability to chuck the skis into a skid easily is key, but they are also going that way so they can have that straighter edge for pinpoint edge sets when the going gets tight and icy. Anyway, cheers for the fun topic.

Until Later,

Holiday
post #22 of 36
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holiday:
"the MAGIC ZONE"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love it! That's exactly the feeling I'm talking about.
post #23 of 36
Just as a thought. While a lot of people believe the “new” skis are the “fast track” for beginners, and they really can be, inability to learn to skid is a good reason they actually can hold a beginner back. Too many rental sleds are purchased for price by the ski areas or rental shops and not with the beginner & intermediate skier in mind. The tails of the skis are far too wide and will not allow the skier to skid. They are actually built for carving and less for learning to ski. This great “magic” now becomes a frustration for all and there goes the neighborhood and our return skier!

Floyd :
post #24 of 36
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Floyd:
...The tails of the skis are far too wide and will not allow the skier to skid. They are actually built for carving and less for learning to ski. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure you know this, but so others don't come away with the wrong impression - its not the tail width per se thats important in releasing from a turn.

Much more important is the aft sidecut (ie, tail width minus waist width) and aft flex. As an example, I can skid around on the back of my extremely wide tailed (114 mm) Volkl Explosivs like they were lunch trays. The main reason is their 94 mm waist, which translates into an aft sidecut of (114-94)/2 = 10 mm. This is about the same aft sidecut that you will see on "pintail" skis specifically designed to assist in releasing from turns.

Actually, for a given sidecut (and snow condition), wider skis usually skid much more easily than narrow ones - they scrape over microscopic terrain variations like a 'board.

Tom / PM
post #25 of 36
paging Bob Barnes, paging Bob Barnes, please come to the white paging telephone.....

Bob, this is the perfect place for your skiing the slow line fast, practicing offensive skiing lecture..... or have you given up on us..

I'll start.

If you practice offensive skiing you can eliminate the need to throw your skis into a skid.....

Come on Bob help me out.
I was just staarting to buy into your offensive skiing argument. You can't abandon me now!!!!

Sure you've acknowledged there is a place for skidding but it shouldn't be a crutch to replace skiing the slow line fast.

Maybe I need my weekly dosage of Prozac - I'm so confused.
post #26 of 36
Thread Starter 
To pull this out a little further with the intructors...

What kind of drills/emphasis is being done these days as far as slipping, skidding, pivoting goes? I know thats an incredibly broad question, so maybe limit it to lower levels..

Have you seen any evidence that the super sidecut skis of the rental fleets have hindered people's abilitites in these drills, and/or skidding skills in general?

If so, does this even appraoch outweighing the gains from learning carving skills much earlier?

Do you think a more pintailed design would be helpful at all or give any kind of best of both worlds result?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 16, 2001 11:56 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Lodro ]</font>
post #27 of 36
Cold Water,

I have to agree with you on this one. I am not saying that skidding is not a needed skill it is and in fact I could be crowned the skidding king some days. But . . . there is a difference between introducing a skid in a turn to effect shape, speed or to take advantage on the terrain and a DEFENSIVE MOVEMENT.

DEFENSIVE skidding is bad. In my experience it allows your tails to wash out leaving you late for the next turn. At this point all kinds of problems are introduced and things really start to break down.

Skidding is ok and I will continue to use it but more awareness of one’s Center of Mass is critical when thinking about skidding and extreme terrain. If your Center of Mass is not properly flowing down the fall line you will be late on every turn as your tails wash out.

BobB, I second cold water’s call for your $.02 here. I need a better understanding.

Later,

Ed
post #28 of 36
Thread Starter 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cold water:
Sure you've acknowledged there is a place for skidding but it shouldn't be a crutch to replace skiing the slow line fast.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't *think* that's what any of us are saying. Its just that with any doctrine, there is always a kind of pendulum effect and in some cases it may have swung a bit too far the other way. Or put another way, you need an antidote for the antidote.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Maybe I need my weekly dosage of Prozac - I'm so confused.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here you go:


: : gulp! : : : [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 16, 2001 12:38 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Lodro ]</font>
post #29 of 36
As you stated, the ability to chuck the skis into a skid easily is key, but they are also going that way so they can have that straighter edge for pinpoint edge sets when the going gets tight and icy.
----------------------------

Exactly. That's one additional point I forgot.

And I also forgot the Big Stix 106, which naturally belongs to the group I mentioned. Actually, I was interested to by that ski but then went for a bit narrower Head Monstercross for more versatility (last year's model, which is relatively straight, at 39m meter turn radius with 193cm)

(BTW. The somehow 'strange' screenname comes from the name of a peak in Northern Norway...it's Lapp(?) language, a language of northern natives, so no wonder it might sound a bit odd...)
post #30 of 36
Thanks, I should be OK [img]tongue.gif[/img] for now, the new weekly dosage throws me for a loop when it wears out.
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