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Flexing through transition and stuff that goes with it - Page 3

post #61 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




So what do you call it when all skiers are in that same position with the chair missing? And why is Bode and Axel and Herbst and everybody else "not" in the back seat when they are in a position like that?

BTW, did you know that you sound very arrogant in your typing. Personal remarks like the ones above will not buy you any good will here or elsewhere.
Look, again and I am trying to point this out for you: Pictures do NOT show the dynamics and forces of what happens when they are in motion. There is no visible sign of a backseat position in these pictures. Even the fact that Bode uses the tail of his left ski slightly to stay in balance indicates that. And he maintains his balance.
Frankly you really should not talk about arrogance.
post #62 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post




Backseat means that CoM is significantly behind the heels.

'Quite balanced actually and controlled' for Bode. He is not just someone. He is pretty much in a class, with a style, of his own. That he completes the turn doesn't convince me that he isn't in the back seat in image 1.

He can go from backseat in image 1 to on top of his skis in image 4 in this sequence because his body is moving down the hill along a different path from his skis and at the h-line his torso has progressed further down the fall line than his feet. So his CoM is now over his feet. Very Bode. Very dicey. Not what I want to coach to.

A tuck shouldn't be backseat, it should be close to neutral. It is possible that you would want to maintain a slight lightening of the forebody of the ski, particularly if the track has soft snow or was not firm, but not to the point where there is daylight under it. Certainly not in the backseat which would effectively raise the forebody off the snow and cause the tips to slap.




Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post



Seems we have the same understanding about backseat. And trust me, if Bode would be in the backseat here, he would not complete this turn. But he does take a big risk of being ever so close to it. Most of his falls are because he took it too far and it lifts him off his skis. What fascinates me about this boy that he just cannot be coached on the contrary he showed us many innovative ideas.
A tuck as it is used by good gliders is quite a bit in the "rear" which allows them to be real fast on straight sections of a downhill course. I have given you a good example with Peter Mueller which was one of the fastest ever. But we still do not consider it a backseat.

 

We agreed that backseat is CoM behind the heels and you say Bode isn't in the back seat. Where, then, is his CoM?
post #63 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post








We agreed that backseat is CoM behind the heels and you say Bode isn't in the back seat. Where, then, is his CoM?

Just look at the next picture. Would that skier not actually be in motion, his CoM would be way back of his heels as you say correctly and he could not get up being in this position. (Try to sit like that against a wall and get up)
But since this is not the case and the CoM is getting pushed ahead and forward from the dynamics of the previous turn, he is not in the backseat even though the picture may show that. And that is why I keep pointing out to be careful when trying to read stuff from pictures. You do not see the forces working on that skier, you do not see how fast they travel, from what angle the shot is taken and you cannot even tell how steep the terrain is. You can only imagine those things.
And it is not that I am being arrogant, but if you have not skied in a certain level you just cannot understand how strong the forces are and how much they really work. Even after this many years coaching I would not dare to read much from just three or four pictures other than that the suits look nice.
post #64 of 79
Just to be clear: CoM (Center of Mass) is a theoretical point at which the system's (in this case Bode's) whole mass can be considered to be concentrated for the purpose of calculations. Momentum is the product of Mass and Velocity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post




Just look at the next picture. Would that skier not actually be in motion, his CoM would be way back of his heels as you say correctly and he could not get up being in this position. (Try to sit like that against a wall and get up)

With skis on, it is possible to get up from the wall. The tails bend, just as Bode's left ski does. It takes incredible strength to get up.

But since this is not the case and the CoM is getting pushed ahead and forward from the dynamics of the previous turn, he is not in the backseat even though the picture may show that. And that is why I keep pointing out to be careful when trying to read stuff from pictures. You do not see the forces working on that skier, you do not see how fast they travel, from what angle the shot is taken and you cannot even tell how steep the terrain is. You can only imagine those things.
And it is not that I am being arrogant, but if you have not skied in a certain level you just cannot understand how strong the forces are and how much they really work. Even after this many years coaching I would not dare to read much from just three or four pictures other than that the suits look nice.
 

I do know what forces are at work. I stated as much in post # 28:

Quote:
The reason that works in this turn (and most of his turns for that matter) is that his body moves inside the turn and down the hill so his CoM is over his feet by the 4th image and he is able to pressure into the entire ski.

I know that his upper body moves to the inside of the new turn as a result of it's momentum; the turning forces have been removed and his upper body travels down, rather than across, the hill due to it's momentum.
post #65 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Just look at the next picture. Would that skier not actually be in motion, his CoM would be way back of his heels as you say correctly and he could not get up being in this position. (Try to sit like that against a wall and get up)
But since this is not the case and the CoM is getting pushed ahead and forward from the dynamics of the previous turn, he is not in the backseat even though the picture may show that. And that is why I keep pointing out to be careful when trying to read stuff from pictures. You do not see the forces working on that skier, you do not see how fast they travel, from what angle the shot is taken and you cannot even tell how steep the terrain is. You can only imagine those things.
And it is not that I am being arrogant, but if you have not skied in a certain level you just cannot understand how strong the forces are and how much they really work. Even after this many years coaching I would not dare to read much from just three or four pictures other than that the suits look nice.
 

Just for your information Im going to tell you how it works. If you quote somebody like you did in your above quote it means that you are talking to him. Speaking to him. Expecially if you use the word YOU! What you are IMHO implying is that MastersRacer has not skied at a certain level and that he therefore cannot understand. Or was it directed at me. Makes no difference. Shape up and get your act together. If you think Im out of line report me to the moderator. Its easy, just press the report button and turn me in.

Also, your community profile is empty. Why? Where are you from? What are your credentials? How long have you skied? Any ambitions? And what are you looking to gain here at epic?
post #66 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Just to be clear: CoM (Center of Mass) is a theoretical point at which the system's (in this case Bode's) whole mass can be considered to be concentrated for the purpose of calculations. Momentum is the product of Mass and Velocity.
 


I do know what forces are at work. I stated as much in post # 28:


I know that his upper body moves to the inside of the new turn as a result of it's momentum; the turning forces have been removed and his upper body travels down, rather than across, the hill due to it's momentum.

The CoM plays different in the turn where you change directions than in the transition where you go straight. Those athletes ski dynamically, not static like "park and ride". So the CoM travels not just downward but also up and forward.
If that is not the case and your skis and legs are only moving forward then yes you are in a backseat and it will be tough to recover. Neither one of those skiers has a problem with that.
post #67 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




Just for your information Im going to tell you how it works. If you quote somebody like you did in your above quote it means that you are talking to him. Speaking to him. Expecially if you use the word YOU! What you are IMHO implying is that MastersRacer has not skied at a certain level and that he therefore cannot understand. Or was it directed at me. Makes no difference. Shape up and get your act together. If you think Im out of line report me to the moderator. Its easy, just press the report button and turn me in.

Also, your community profile is empty. Why? Where are you from? What are your credentials? How long have you skied? Any ambitions? And what are you looking to gain here at epic?
Look, maybe it is me how I use the language. But maybe you are just having a rough day? As far as I know the word YOU means somebody specific but also in general anyone really. I do not know of another word to use. But should I ever have hurt your or anyone else feelings, it was never my intend.
Oh and I am here to improve just that, the english language. I have no need to improve my skiing since I skied a few hours here and there in that sport, but really don't brag about it. I have pretty much reached my goals and help others as well. So how am I doing?
post #68 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Pictures do NOT show the dynamics and forces of what happens when they are in motion.
Yes, they do. But a person that cannot read such information out of a series of photos or even one photo should not be handing out advice, they should be obtaining advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
There is no visible sign of a backseat position in these pictures.
Wrong, there is undebatable visible sign and proof of a backseated position in frame 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Even the fact that Bode uses the tail of his left ski slightly to stay in balance indicates that. And he maintains his balance.
 
Bode uses the tail of his left ski and his left ski pole for some support because he is not perfectly balanced dynamicly. That has nothing do do with him being in a back seated position. Its important to understand the difference between static and dynamic balance. Here is something I snapped off internet that I think fits into our discussion: The athlete's ability to maintain a center of gravity over a constantly changing base of support is critical to success and is the essence of dynamic balance. Postural strength and control is also necessary to achieve dynamic balance. If for instance bode continued a fraction longer in that frame 1 position how would his balance change? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Frankly you really should not talk about arrogance.
 
What goes arround comes arround.
post #69 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Oh and I am here to improve just that, the english language. I have no need to improve my skiing since I skied a few hours here and there in that sport, but really don't brag about it. I have pretty much reached my goals and help others as well. So how am I doing?
 
OMG, you are really something. Im not sure how the mods will react to such a statement but you are IMHO severely out of line. And with a blank profile .
post #70 of 79
 Fore balanced:



Aft balanced:



Extreme aft (my Bode imitation): 

post #71 of 79
Thread Starter 
Rick, if you look at the photo with you in an forward stance how would you pickture the CoM alignment would align with the BoS if you folded your upper body forward in an aggressive GS racing stance? Or would you rather build on your aft balance photo? BTW, your Bode stance looks pritty much like Bode in a transition but that is not his stance when pressure is up at the gate.
post #72 of 79
Dynamics.
Backseat = boots in front of line going from com through point of maximum pressure on skis.  Pressureing the tips would require the com to be farther back to be balanced.  That's simple enough, but that's not all there is to dynamics. Consider acceleration of com and how you can generate MORE FORCE.

Legit reason for being in back seat = desire to generate more force, force which will accelerate com forward and backwards (com can get thereby more force on tips, cm being accelerated out of there from more force on tails).  If com were already in a balanced position, this extra force would move com too far forward.  The only way to generate more force than you can from a balanced position is to be more dynamic and play with the acceleration of com.  If you are balancing your weight with line of action of force through com and boots you can only accelerate along that line.  If you bounce up and down you generate more force than if you stand still. If you rapidly accelerate your com fore and aft you work the tails and tips more than if you keep your com in a steady fore-aft position.  It's not just the force pushing you; it's the force changing the rate at which you are moving in and out of the back seat.

Other reasons for being slightly in the back seat?  It's faster.
post #73 of 79
All this talk of "backseat" is ridiculous. First off, from the first post and image, the comment "he's in the backseat", and "he's breaking at the waist" - as if those were bad. How in the world are you going to get your skis up to your chest and not "break at the waist"?  Where are your hips going to go if your knees are in your chest?

In the Bode montage case yes, his pelvis is behind his feet, if you want to call that "backseat" fine. He is not "skiing in the backseat" - He's not staying there. The body is moving downhill, the skis are moving a different way,  and for some time his pelvis is behind his feet.

Recreational skiers can do this also. The implication that only Bode does this is absurd. He may push things farther, but we have currently two other threads discussing this topic.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/90579/where-do-we-want-our-hips-over-our-feet-why-do-we-want-to-move-our-hips-forward/0

and
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/89986/hips-over-feet
post #74 of 79
Bode is showing us his skills in manipulating different states of balance towards attaining an outcome.
He doesn't stay there but many rec skiers do and they should learn a bit from Bode's playbook what other states feel like

Bode and so many others make conscious adjustments to their balance to get their goals met. We do the same to make a turn in trees, for example ,when our line  with mandatory turns doesn't afford   an evenly balanced turn

Bode is aft at times ,way aft , but he is doing so with purpose and with the ability to alter his balance state to meet his needs. A rec skier who skis  constantly aft is not serving his needs but is just doing so out of habit or as a way to adjust for alignment difficulties they may not be aware of.

We should all explore our balance options and be ready to use them
Edited by GarryZ - 1/26/10 at 11:19am
post #75 of 79
I think there is way too much emphasis on keeping the hips over the feet.  Skiing is way to dynamic to have such a single focus. No two turns are are the same. Terrain, speed, turn shape, etc, all contribute to where and how we stand on or against the skis. Great skiers are constantly adjusting to maintain balance and ski control.  Many good skiers and lesser skier who watch the great skiers don't see or understand what is going on, because a great skier"s moves as so subtle.

Like Bud was saying, yo can't take a single photo a make an accurate analysis of what a skier is doing.  You just done see what happened in the previous turn, nor can you see what the skier is anticipating in the next turn or several turns ahead.

Another point is body height and leg length.  A tall skier will tend to appear more in the back seat than a shorter skier.  I have a long lower leg and I can have good angles and well balanced, but you will see my hips at my boot heels or slightly behind at some point of a turn, especially on steep terrain making short radius turns, or completing longer turns across the fall line on steep terrain.

My 2 cents...
post #76 of 79

Quote:
We agreed that backseat is CoM behind the heels and you say Bode isn't in the back seat. Where, then, is his CoM? -MastersRacer

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post


Just look at the next picture. Would that skier not actually be in motion, his CoM would be way back of his heels as you say correctly and he could not get up being in this position. (Try to sit like that against a wall and get up)

But since this is not the case and the CoM is getting pushed ahead and forward from the dynamics of the previous turn, he is not in the backseat even though the picture may show that. And that is why I keep pointing out to be careful when trying to read stuff from pictures. You do not see the forces working on that skier, you do not see how fast they travel, from what angle the shot is taken and you cannot even tell how steep the terrain is. You can only imagine those things.

And it is not that I am being arrogant, but if you have not skied in a certain level you just cannot understand how strong the forces are and how much they really work. Even after this many years coaching I would not dare to read much from just three or four pictures other than that the suits look nice.

And the skis are accelerating forward faster than the body in the float phase.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SailnSki View Post

I think there is way too much emphasis on keeping the hips over the feet.  Skiing is way to dynamic to have such a single focus.
No two turns are are the same. Terrain, speed, turn shape, etc, all contribute to where and how we stand on or against the skis. Great skiers are constantly adjusting to maintain balance and ski control.  Many good skiers and lesser skier who watch the great skiers don't see or understand what is going on, because a great skier"s moves as so subtle.

Like Bud was saying, yo can't take a single photo a make an accurate analysis of what a skier is doing.  You just done see what happened in the previous turn, nor can you see what the skier is anticipating in the next turn or several turns ahead....
 

More alleged "backseat" skiing:
From post 19:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post


For some boot info there's this post on forward lean and flexing in general:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
post #77 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Rick, if you look at the photo with you in an forward stance how would you pickture the CoM alignment would align with the BoS if you folded your upper body forward in an aggressive GS racing stance? Or would you rather build on your aft balance photo? 

Ideally, I would remove a bit of the ankle flexion shown in the fore stance, and fold into the angulated position I needed, trying to keep my outside leg as functionally long and strong as possible at the turn's apex.  If I needed more flexion in the knee for whatever reason, I would compliment it with additional flexion in my ankle , to ensure I remained properly fore/aft balanced.


Quote:
BTW, your Bode stance looks pritty much like Bode in a transition but that is not his stance when pressure is up at the gate.

No, it's not at all similar to his position at the apex.  He's generally long and strong there.  Knees flexed, with hips behind the feet, in a momentary aft balance stance is not necessarily a bad thing through a transition.  It's when a skier regularly gets stuck there for the rest of the turn (hips back and aft) that technical corrections need to be made.

A good portion of the recreational skiing community is to some degree in that hips and balance aft boat.  They have no clue of their balance state from moment to moment.  They have no awareness of pressure distribution along the base of their foot, and they don't understand the mechanisms that can be used to manage it.  Developing expert level balance skills involves learning all those things.  I know you understand that stuff, tdk6, I'm just shouting to the crowd.  

These foundation balance skills are one of the first things I address when working with new students.  It's almost as a rule one of the primary missing links in their skiing.  These basic fore/aft and lateral balance skills and awareness need to be addressed before higher forms of dynamic turns can be effectively tackled.  
post #78 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

All this talk of "backseat" is ridiculous. First off, from the first post and image, the comment "he's in the backseat", and "he's breaking at the waist" - as if those were bad. How in the world are you going to get your skis up to your chest and not "break at the waist"?  Where are your hips going to go if your knees are in your chest?
 

Tog, the topic of this thread is "flexing through transitions and stuff that goes with it". The claims and photo in the OP were to start the discussion but untill your posting here above nobody really managed to explain why your hips are behind the feet as simple as you did. Just defending this and that. There is a huge missconseption out there that correct skiing never puts you hips behind your feet. The most rediculous claim of them all is that the wc skiers we capture in a freezed frame with their hips behind their feet really does not have their hips behind their feet. YES they do and NO its not a bad thing. If you are in your skiing boots and you have your skis on and you retract your feet so that your knees touch your chest while skis are parallel to the snow then you need to fold your upper body forwards and your hips will be behind your feet. The more you fold your upper body forwards the more forwards your CoM will be. Think a down hill tuck. So the skier in the OP was folding his upper body forwards like that because he was passing over a ridge. Not really a flexing through transition movement but an example of how low these guys and gals ski and how big their range of motion is. The important thing is that always when you have pressure under your skis you should have your CoM in a favorable position over your BoS. And in order to move your CoM forwards and down the hill as smoothly as possible you should try to keep the most part of the mass that happens to be located in your hips and upper body put and isolate your movements to your feet with less mass. Just like a car where weels are moving up and down.

Quote:
In the Bode montage case yes, his pelvis is behind his feet, if you want to call that "backseat" fine. He is not "skiing in the backseat" - He's not staying there. The body is moving downhill, the skis are moving a different way,  and for some time his pelvis is behind his feet.
 

Correct.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Recreational skiers can do this also. The implication that only Bode does this is absurd.
 


Yes, and yes, its absurd.
post #79 of 79
Wait, you mean we agree? I should go home?
Speaking of hips behind the feet - go watch the Kitzbuehl Downhill on Universal Sports!
I wish I could post some of the clips going into that first sharp right hand fall away turn, and most of the other difficult turns. I guess they just don't know how to ski, maybe next year!
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